How to fix or prevent wire cut with Crystalyte HS35 motor

[itselectric]

The original Crystalyte HS35 rear motor was designed as sensorless motor in 2010, the products started to show up in Feb/Mar 2011 in North America. I personally had tested since Oct 2010 to Feb 2011 without any problem. Due to demand from E.S. communities, these motor had been upgraded to sensored motor. I didn't thinking add a few wires should be a problem and without much testing on this configuration. However, I have seen 99% of all sensored motor will eventually have wire cut and short the hall effect chip inside the motor, and potentially short the other devices such as controller and cruise control. Trust me on this, I have given Crystalyte many of my feed back on this.

This problem seem to be happen to HS35 or HT35 rear motors, I have no seen on Front motor yet, I will check it later when I have time.

This what it look like when you open up the protected plastic cover. The wire is being bend at 90 degree, pushing the wire onto the sealer, when the motor start to rotate, the sealer started to spin, it will eventually cut any wires that touches it.

WireCutBySeal [1024x768].JPG

(168.97 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

I and others like minded members had came up with a very simple solution. Here are the steps:
1. remove the plastic cover that hold the wire in place, and turn it 180 degree
2. grind down half circle groove, allow the wire exit from the top, instead of 90 degree bend the wire against the rubber sealer
3. put the cover plastic back on, and you are done.

This simple solution will prevent the wire touching the sealer. It extremely easy to do. However, if you already had your wire cut, it is too late, and you will have to start the process of finding out which hall is short, open the motor, change out the hall, etc...

Anyway, I hope this posting will help many others who run into same problem as I am.

Ken

[groundproximity]

Thanks Ken!

in addition i would recommend to open the motor and dremel all the sharp metal edges of the axle. Get at least 10AWG 200°C and plus heat resistance silicon wire with glass silk coating for the phase wires like this one here:

litze.jpg

(15.79 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

...and then guide them through the smoothened axle. The available space is more than enough and the 90° bend is easier with only these 3 cables.

Ken: if you dont want to use additional washers on the cable side of the motor then you´re pretty much gonna need that sharp 90° edge. But with the 3 single cables it´s not a problem. On your axle it looks like you would need to press the plastic cover further down to tighten the axle nuts properly.

[RVD]

I'm a little dense and don't really understand what you guys are talking about. Is this only for the sensored version of the rear wheel?

I have the sensorless HT3540 and don't see where the wires would get cut. Where do I make this modification?

This is how mine looks.

The plastic cover moves...

plastic cover in place.

[itselectric]

Thanks Ken!

in addition i would recommend to open the motor and dremel all the sharp metal edges of the axle. Get at least 10AWG 200°C and plus heat resistance silicon wire with glass silk coating for the phase wires like this one here:

litze.jpg

...and then guide them through the smoothened axle. The available space is more than enough and the 90° bend is easier with only these 3 cables.

Ken: if you dont want to use additional washers on the cable side of the motor then you´re pretty much gonna need that sharp 90° edge. But with the 3 single cables it´s not a problem. On your axle it looks like you would need to press the plastic cover further down to tighten the axle nuts properly.

groundproximity:

1.) Did you replace the entire phase wire? Or you making a join wire somewhere inside?
2.) Can you please provide the spec and where you can get these heat resistance silicon wire with glass silk coating?

I'm a little dense and don't really understand what you guys are talking about. Is this only for the sensored version of the rear wheel?

I have the sensorless HT3540 and don't see where the wires would get cut. Where do I make this modification?

This is how mine looks.

The plastic cover moves...

RVD, if you remove the plastic cover, you will see the wire are bend toward to the rubber sealer, it depend how much you stress the wire, when the rubber sealer touch any wire, it will cut open regardless senored or sensorless motor. If you have sensorless you have more room and may buy you more time.

Ken

[Cheeseboy]

Thank you so much for this, you see, I rode my HS35 for the first time and it was great, when I tried to ride it a second time, it was juddering...

Hours of annoying troubleshooting later, I found out that one of the halls had failed and which one it was, at least now I know why!

What puzzled me is that it didn't fail while I was riding it, but between rides. I assume someone must have knocked it over.

a bit off topic, but would a Honeywell S411A hall sensor work as a replacement?

[RVD]

Ok I understand the problem now.

However, I read through your post around 20 times but I still don't quite get it. In your 3 pictures where you show your solution, a few questions:

1) There are 2 plastic pieces...the inner piece which is what holds the wires near the sealer and the outer piece which wraps around the inner piece. In picture #1, it looks like you cut part of the plastic off on the inner piece since it no longer has the bottom ledge in the plastic. Is that right, did you cut this? If so, why cut this? Also, I'm not sure I quite understand the 180 degree rotating part. Do you mean to rotate this 180 degrees so that the opening part (where the wire was located) is in the back part of the axel and no longer where the wire is located?

2) How do you get from picture #1 (turn 180 degrees) to picture #2 (re-route the wire)? Did you cut and make that little circular groove with a knife?

3) I am assuming that the outer plastic piece is unmodified.

I think a video of this fix would be awesome.

[dogman]

Too bad when they designed the "Best new motor" they kept the same old crappy design for the bearing size. So they will still have the same old problems the 5300 series had with nicked wires. Many have cut the wire slot a bit deeper, allowing a better thickness chafe protection where the wire exits the bearing.

They need to WAKE UP, and put larger diameter bearings. Then the wires can exit in a spot with more room for a chafe resistant sheath.

[spinningmagnets]

Please show a pic of all the wires that are exiting from the axle, set so that they are also in the proper "drip loop" placement.

[groundproximity]

groundproximity:

1.) Did you replace the entire phase wire? Or you making a join wire somewhere inside?
2.) Can you please provide the spec and where you can get these heat resistance silicon wire with glass silk coating?

I will replace the complete wire. The minimum amount for purchase of that cable is 10m so i have enough anyway.
I´m gonna wrap the 3 phase wires in another heat resistant black glas silk coating and that should still leave enough room to allow a comfortable bend at the axle pastic cover.
I searched for heat resistant wires (3 cables inside) with coating but they´re quite expensive and too thick to allow an easy bend at the axle.
Maybe that heat resistant cable mod is an overkill anyway cause i´m planning on 2000W max but - you never know.

Here is the link to the shop. It´s in Germany though but i´m sure you´ll find it in the US and Canada as well.
http://www.kurt-e-weber.de/eshop_catalog.php/action,change_language/CAT_ID,3263/descr,200_C-hitzebestaendig-Kupferlitze-Glasseide/

[itselectric]

groundproximity:

1.) Did you replace the entire phase wire? Or you making a join wire somewhere inside?
2.) Can you please provide the spec and where you can get these heat resistance silicon wire with glass silk coating?

I will replace the complete wire. The minimum amount for purchase of that cable is 10m so i have enough anyway.
I´m gonna wrap the 3 phase wires in another heat resistant black glas silk coating and that should still leave enough room to allow a comfortable bend at the axle pastic cover.
I searched for heat resistant wires (3 cables inside) with coating but they´re quite expensive and too thick to allow an easy bend at the axle.
Maybe that heat resistant cable mod is an overkill anyway cause i´m planning on 2000W max but - you never know.

Here is the link to the shop. It´s in Germany though but i´m sure you´ll find it in the US and Canada as well.
http://www.kurt-e-weber.de/eshop_catalog.php/action,change_language/CAT_ID,3263/descr,200_C-hitzebestaendig-Kupferlitze-Glasseide/

groundproximity:

thanks for link, i don't know a lot about property of wire, just learn it here and there in this forum, so my next question may not be valid.

Why didn't you use teflon wire instead of silicon wire? teflon wire are general smaller is size in the same space. Silicon wire are general used in RC hobby stuff, the wire itself is easier to bend, and can take high temperature, they general are thicker, am I wrong? If you have to do again, would you consider teflon wire?

Ken

[groundproximity]

Why didn't you use teflon wire instead of silicon wire? teflon wire are general smaller is size in the same space. Silicon wire are general used in RC hobby stuff, the wire itself is easier to bend, and can take high temperature, they general are thicker, am I wrong? If you have to do again, would you consider teflon wire?

Ken, i´m quite unexperienced concerning: what wire gauge for what amount of current. I didn´t even knew that teflon wire would be an alternative. (because of the size)
I knew silicon wire only from my rc plane stuff. So i searched for heat resistant silicon wire.
If i´m unsure about dimensions and/or load/stress on electric stuff i may tend to oversize things just to be sure. Just thought it would be good to make it one step more solid than what came from Crystalyte.
The lacing job was a shame. I had it relaced properly from a pro and he said the stock lacing was really bad. Some spokes had folds and the spokes were too long for that rim. They were exiting the nipples towards to tire by 2-3 mm.
And honestly: I would be willing to pay a hundred bugs more for this motor if some things would be fabricated properly. I´m no saying it´s cheap crab no - but here and there some minor things and it would be much better.
I think that the asian market still faces the dilemma that for most of the stuff that comes from "far east" - there are still more people who prefer cheap prices over quality.
But i think almost everybody here in the forum would pay more for a good motor with solid and properly machined axle, intelligent and save cable guidance, potential to give it loads like the old 5x series... well you know what i mean. I´m repeating things here.

Anyway, i will report how my setup and motor mod will work out. Maybe it´s not so representative since i´m running only a beginner setup with 2000W.
So for the advanced guys: Better ignore my motor mod

[Stevil_Knevil]

Sure enough - after only 10 minutes of testing the HS in my Greyborg, the seal had cut through the outer insulation and was beginning to gnaw at next layer of fiberglass insulation. So ..yeah ..thanks for posting this mod (turd polish?), Ken
I understood 75% of it, until finding this pic from groundproximity..



http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 80#p428790 ..then it clicked for me.

Many hours of much consternation and gnashing of teeth replacing phase wires, blown halls and FETS averted

Cheers guys!!

[itselectric]

Sure enough - after only 10 minutes of testing the HS in my Greyborg, the seal had cut through the outer insulation and was beginning to gnaw at next layer of fiberglass insulation. So ..yeah ..thanks for posting this mod (turd polish?), Ken
I understood 75% of it, until finding this pic from groundproximity..

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 80#p428790 ..then it clicked for me.

Many hours of much consternation and gnashing of teeth replacing phase wires, blown halls and FETS averted

Cheers guys!!

Stevil:

I will update this posting with a few more pictures, so others can understand with the first read. Sorry to hear your problem too.

I would like confirm the following:
1.) The front motor had same problem, if any of you have front motor with sensored hall wire, check your wire
2.) so far that I have seen, it is almost 100% of chance that you have cut wire if you have sensored motor, again, check your wire.

Ken

[Joe90]

I thing those motors are not designed for us who like to Mega overvolt them (that's why we ask for sensor)

but for the masses using it at 500W, they would last forever.

[RVD]

I think this wire cut problem that we're talking about here will be a problem for everyone (even those who only use up to 500w).

[electricwheels.de]

I think this wire cut problem that we're talking about here will be a problem for everyone (even though who only use up to 500w).

Yep, and what a problem it is, besides the other Problem this otherwise good motor has .

We decided to redesign the cable exit plastic part. This makes it easy to put through the wires and run them through without any damage . And its waterproof, too .

Cable exit from cable guide bush

Cable exit.JPG (97 KiB) Viewed 2531 times

[itselectric]

I think this wire cut problem that we're talking about here will be a problem for everyone (even though who only use up to 500w).

Yep, and what a problem it is, besides the other Problem this otherwise good motor has .

We decided to redesign the cable exit plastic part. This makes it easy to put through the wires and run them through without any damage . And its waterproof, too .

Cable exit.JPG

electricwheels.de:

Can you possible to provide steps or instruction how yours works?

Ken

[nicobie]

I think this wire cut problem that we're talking about here will be a problem for everyone (even though who only use up to 500w).

Yep, and what a problem it is, besides the other Problem this otherwise good motor has .

We decided to redesign the cable exit plastic part. This makes it easy to put through the wires and run them through without any damage . And its waterproof, too .

Cable exit.JPG

electricwheels.de:

Can you possible to provide steps or instruction how yours works?

Ken

Or better yet, tell us where we can buy one.

Now, please tell us about the other "Problem" . Is it one we can fix ourselves?

[electricwheels.de]

Now, please tell us about the other "Problem" . Is it one we can fix ourselves?

Sure can.

I would call it the 'knot' problem , or, to be more precise, the area of the windings where the wire ends are tightened together, or 'knotted' together with solder.

These are executed differently on the HT and the HS motors.
Lets have a look at the HT motor first:

The HT 'knot'

HT knot.JPG (97.49 KiB) Viewed 2569 times

You can see how the wires from the 3 strands are 'knotted' together, with the 'knot' being on the inside of the stator rim. The knot is soldered, shrink tube isolated and a covered with a silikon-glasssilk-tube. The whole knot is secured with a cable tie against a stator 'spoke'.
So far so good.

Now let's have a look at the HS 'knot'...

The HS 'knot'

HS knot.JPG (95.36 KiB) Viewed 2569 times

Shown is the motor in its original state as delivered by Crystalyte. As you may have realised, the knot has been folded sideways and been put ON TOP OF THE STATOR WINDINGS !!! To make matters worse, a tie-string has been used to secure it, and little tie-string knots add to the thickness of the stator in this area! And its folded AGAINST the turning direction of the wheel, so that if it opens a little it may be caught by the side cover and folded forward into the running direction of the wheel in a rather unpleasant way .

You can definitely hear if this is touching the sidecover when you turn the wheel. Listen for a scraping sound on the side where the wires exit the motor. It is probably in one spot only, due to the side covers not being exactly machined flat (that's another problem). If you hear something, that's what it is .

Now what do you think will happen here once the motor runs?
You've guessed it - Once your little knot have worn a little, they will open. And it mayby just Murphys law that one day bare winding wire comes in contact with your side cover

And fixing it? Well, you need to open the lot and seperate every strand of wire, then drill/twist the lot together in a similar way like on the HT motor. Not exactly nice work, and you may just damage the Stator windings when you do it.

What I think about it all?

After getting a few motors fixed, I reckon it's hard yakka that nobody will pay you for. I can't see why I should have to do this, it's Crystalytes problem, not mine.
Man, I'm so disappointed with that lot
So I probably will stop selling Crystalyte motors until the Chinese get their act together, probably after a flood of defective motors will soon haunt every Crystalyte dealer.

[miro13car]

that is horrible!!!
Chinese engineering at its worst.
Nobody has eyes at Cristallite?
Well, manufature quick, sell cheap - I guess "you got what you pay for" rule at work.
Maybe is cheap but after buying you have to rework all motor.
And those tiny phase wires LESS than AWG 10 ???? -they must be kidding, if you want to run it at more that 500W so those wires acts like resistors and you are wasting your battery.
Conclusion:
Chinese brands are light years apart from the best: Tidal Force and E+.

[The Mighty Volt]

that is horrible!!!
Chinese engineering at its worst.
Nobody has eyes at Cristallite?
Well, manufature quick, sell cheap - I guess "you got what you pay for" rule at work.
Maybe is cheap but after buying you have to rework all motor.
And those tiny phase wires LESS than AWG 10 ???? -they must be kidding, if you want to run it at more that 500W so those wires acts like resistors and you are wasting your battery.
Conclusion:
Chinese brands are light years apart from the best: Tidal Force and E+.

This reminds me of what they say in the ICE world about engines. Whats the best upgrade for a V6 Engine.

Answer: A V8 Engine.

You want to know how to fix damaged HS35 wires? Its simple. Buy an X5 in the first place.

[nicobie]

Hi electricwheels,

I notice that the stator on your motor has the D shape holes. I think that was Clyte's 1st version. The 2nd version (at least the sensored ones) had the 30mm cast pot metal stator and didn't have the wireing problem you pointed out.

edit: this pic is of a HT motor so I might/probably am wrong.



The 3rd version has round holes in the stamped steed stator. Here is a picture Ilia posted of a HS3540. I know it is showing the wrong side of the stator but maybe somebody has a pic of the other side to see if Kenny has wised up and changed his ways on the 3rd version of the HS3540.

[Cheeseboy]

Hi, I've got one of the third version Sensored motors, and in mine the knot problem has been fixed.

Here are some pictures of mine, sorry for the poor quality, they were taken with my video camera

Here's the area where the knot issue has been solved. But the one wire conglomerate (for lack of a better term) Just goes nowhere... Dunno whether that's bad, it's the one going horizontal in the picture.

DSC00020.JPG (143.32 KiB) Viewed 2434 times

I don't know much about motors, but surely this can't be good? stator plates are separating.

DSC00018.JPG (144.42 KiB) Viewed 2434 times

And Finally, my cut wire which is why I've opened the motor up to change a hall sensor.

DSC00021.JPG (152.03 KiB) Viewed 2434 times

Should I be worried about the gaps between the stator layers? Or is that acceptable Chinese engineering and not catastrophic?

[nicobie]

You most likely got those gaps when you took the motor apart. I did the same thing but was able to bend them almost all the way back. I don't think it will hurt anything.

You have to be careful when removing the stator from the magnet rim. I think it's best to use a 3 arm puller so it comes out evenly. It's the "put motor on the floor and stomp on the rim" trick that got me in trouble.

[rebelpilot]

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