Top Gear Pulls another stunt on the Nissan leaf!

[Arlo1]

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/82528,peo ... edium=site

I will never watch their show again.

[knoxie]

Yes sadly another example of where they rip the piss out of something because it doesnt run on petrol, I had started watching the show again and had been enjoying it, I largely take the show with a massive pinch of salt these days.

James May says batteries are rubbish? what the F*ck does he know about batteries then and ha laughingly thinks that Hydrogen powered cars are the future ha ha get real.

I have said it before Clarkson and May would crawl over their dead grandmother to get in and drive an electric car if it was either that or walk.

You can understand the manufacturers getting the hump about this however I would assume any potential leaf customer would understand what pillocks these three are to largely ignore their opinions and just google the real world to find out before you make your purchase, I dont think electric cars are the future either...I think its electric bikes

[spinningmagnets]

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/25/carlos-ghosn-2011-nissan-leaf-sold-out/

...If you aren't already on the list to purchase a 2011 Nissan Leaf, you're officially out of luck. During a speech to the Detroit Economic Club today, Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn announced that the U.S. market allotment for the first year's production of Leafs is already sold out more than six months before the EV even goes on sale. Nissan has now received 13,000 orders for the $32,780 electric car in the U.S., and 6,000 more in Japan...

Lets see...will gasoline prices trend up or down over this next year?...What WILL gas prices do?...I do hope Nissan will be OK...whatever happens...They still make gasoline powered economy cars, right?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/nissan-first-quarter-profit-exceeds-predictions.html

Nissan posted an operating profit of $1.93 billion, more than double the $900 million average estimate of eight industry analysts. The second-largest Japanese automaker stated that its operating profit for the April to June period fell just 10.4 percent from 2010. The company’s earlier estimates had anticipated a slide of 14.4 percent.

Rivals Toyota and Honda, though both well on the way to raising production to pre-quake levels, are widely predicted to post operating losses...

[knoxie]

I quite like the leaf actually and it would be a great little family car, its just a bit on the high side at the moment for most, make them at least as cheap as the petrol version and it would be a no brainer, except they would not sell many petrol ones if that were the case.

Still think electric bikes on the whole are a better option for most though and even folks with families too, you can pull a trailer much easier with a hub motor! he he I think though if we all had a lot of spare cash to buy one of these we would, the future is for sure electric though but on 2 wheels motorbike or bike.

On the Top Gear clip they say you can go buy a Leaf now? doesnt mention a waiting list, the same thing will happen though is that the rich will buy them because its a staus symbol and something cool, leaving the everyday guy in the street out of the loop.

One thing as petrol prices get higher and higher and as countries start heaping more tax on the fuel to cover the gaping holes in the economy folks will flood to buy them, couple the electric car with a nice 4KW solar array on your roof with a feed in tariff of 40p per KW hour and things start to look do able

[Zen_Shenron]

"We don't say how much petrol went into a car when it started a journey."

No but I bet they made dam sure it had a full tank.

[Arlo1]

It really makes a guy wonder if someone was paid to make electric cars look bad or not usable. If I was a Big Oil company I would pay people like the guys at top gear to make sure my drug (in this case gas) looks like the best answer. If you control the media its half the battle.... What really scares me is our internet censorship. What I learnt from endless sphere is mind blowing to my friends. And without ES and all you guys I would still think gasoline is better. Makes a guy wonder is someone like Jeremy Harris got blocked from es as a way of slowing down the progress on the electric revolution! Because lets face it. Big OIl company's are making a ridiculous amount of money off gas but look who else does... Almost 50% of the charge in the pump here in BC is gov tax!!!!

[TylerDurden]

It really makes a guy wonder if someone was paid to make electric cars look bad or not usable.

You can count on it.


Edit: removed landmine. ES remains independent.

[Hillhater]

It really makes a guy wonder if someone was paid to make electric cars look bad or not usable. If I was a Big Oil company I would pay people like the guys at top gear to make sure my drug (in this case gas) looks like the best answer. If you control the media its half the battle.... !!!

Well , the TG "Live Roadshow" that toured the world a year or so back , was certainly sponsored by an oil company. In fact half the show was a blatant live advert for the fuel company..and pretty poor for the rest of the time too !

[neptronix]

They're sponsored by Shell.

Would you expect anything less?

[REdiculous]

Top Gear is funny as hell and they have an obligation to their fans. Talking up the Leaf would be stupid.

Range anxiety is real. The Leaf's battery is equivalent to 1 gallon of E85, 24kwh. Sure, you can go just over 70 miles on that "gallon", but that isn't very far. Get 35 miles from your house and you better turn around or you're probably gonna get stranded.

The nearest "big" city to me is a 70mi round trip. The Leaf would barely make it there and back, and frock me if I want to shop or even just drive to the other side of the city. No recharging stations anywhere near me either, not that I'd want to hang out at the gas station for half an hour anyway.

Did you guys catch their eco-challenge episode? They had to drive some crazy distance (like 500 miles, iirc) on 1 tank to turn on the lights at some festival or whatever...Jeremy chose a nice "guzzler", ran the AC and all that trying to get it to quit near his house, and he still made it. Even though the Leaf is crazy efficient, it wouldn't make it 1/5th the distance they did in that episode because it doesn't even carry the energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline!!!!

Would you buy a gas car with a 3 gallon tank?...assume 33mpg and gas is super cheap....that's the Leaf.

James May says batteries are rubbish?

The Leaf only carries a 24kwh battery and to really compare, range-wise, to normal cars it needs to carry 150kwh. How much would that weigh and how much space would it occupy? James May is the stupidest guy on TG but he's right. A gallon of gas is so much smaller and lighter than the equivalent in batteries it's not even funny.

[Arlo1]

Rediculous. You have to be careful when comparing KWH to gallons of gas. The energy in gas is great yes. But How efficient the whole system is is a frocking joke!
The Watt hours/mile for a Leaf compared to a mile per gallon of gas used in an efficient car shows the true numbers!

[Joseph C.]

Did you guys catch their eco-challenge episode? They had to drive some crazy distance (like 500 miles, iirc) on 1 tank to turn on the lights at some festival or whatever...Jeremy chose a nice "guzzler", ran the AC and all that trying to get it to quit near his house, and he still made it.

I think at this stage you can't trust anything that happens in Top Gear to be genuine. I think you are making a mistake believing that challenge was bona fide. I am sure that you have seen their numerous car versus other transport vehicles. Remind again - has the car ever lost?

No matter how unlikely the odds - the car always wins even pitted against a 300 kilometre an hour TGV or a plane. Do you remember the episode where the car won because the engines of two speedboats blew up in a row?

The faster that show is culled for continuous misrepresentation the better.

Edit: And the faster you, me and half the world will stop contributing to making Clarkson rich out of the show.

[REdiculous]

You have to be careful when comparing KWH to gallons of gas. The energy in gas is great yes. But How efficient the whole system is is a frocking joke!

Yeah, I know how to compare it...

Imagine putting "1 gallon of gas" in two different cars, one is the 99MPGe Leaf and the other is a 99mpg gas car. You have to start with the same energy potential in both "gas tanks" or it's not equal. Since you can't put gas into a Leaf you gotta figure out the potential energy in a gallon of regular..

There's about 115,000BTU in a gallon of regular gas. Convert that at 100% efficiency to electricity and that's roughly 33.7kwh. Those numbers are provided by the DOE and the EPA uses them in figuring the MPGe ratings for electrics...obviously there's some variability, but you can only get so close.

The idea is we want both cars to travel about 99 miles and stop within spitting distance of each other. The only problem is the Leaf can't carry 1 gallon of gas (/33.7kwh) since its pack only holds 24kwh (conveniently, that's equivalent to 1 gallon of E85!).

IMO, Nissan totally frocked up. The battery capacity on the Leaf is pathetic. They should've started with 50kwh (150-ish miles) and given the option for 80kwh (240-ish miles).

[Arlo1]

You are missing the point. And skewing what people are going to think. An electric vehicle does not need the same energy storage as a ICE vehicle. You need to compare what a ICE vehicle actually uses for fuel consumption to the energy actually used in an EV. Now I have to go google all the numbers. And yes the Leaf could have used a bigger battery but i'm sure as the technology develops and the public speaks and the cost is lowered they will.

[Arlo1]

So the Leaf uses 173 wh/km http://www.green-car-guide.com/guide/nissan-leaf.html meaning 24kw battery will last 138km which is low yes, but suits most of the worlds daily computing needs and is actually a perfect solution for most of the world! Now 138 km = 85.56mi So go find me a gas burning car that travels 85.56 miles on 1 gallon of e85! It can not be a hybrid either. And I tell you what if you can find me a production car sold in north America that can travel 85.56 miles on one US gallon of regular gasoline I WILL PAYPAL YOU $10! Other wise shut up and start comparing the actual efficiency's of the vehicles because its very obvious after over 100 years of trying gasoline burning motors will never be as efficient as electric!

[REdiculous]

You are missing the point. And skewing what people are going to think. An electric vehicle does not need the same energy storage as a ICE vehicle.

You're missing my point. Electric cars don't need the same energy storage as ICE vehicles but they do need similar range if they're ever going to replace gas vehicles. Electric cars are super efficient, sure, but that means fuck-all if the range is only 73 miles.

To compare to a regular car, the Leaf needs about 5.5 times the battery it has. That means a 132kwh pack for an honest 400 mile range. That would only be equivalent to 3.9 gallons of gas, so you can really see how efficient it is; 99MPGe is really good.

The Leaf's range is bullshit, especially for the asking price.

[Arlo1]

Yeah but the more people buy them the cheaper they get... We just need more of them available. The range is fine for 99% of the worlds needs. people need to quit worrying about range it scares them because of all of the propaganda. And those who want more range will get it will bigger battery options which will come in time. But If I got a leaf I would opt for the small battery there is no reason to carry a big battery you are not going to use. I would only use ~40 % of the battery a day (round trip) and I commute 1/2 hour to work!
In the end charging stations will come the be faster look at a nanotech lipo battery its nothing to get a battery that can be charged in 7.5 minutes and all they need is charging stations that can hold and dump energy fast. The batteries will get better and packs with more density smaller in size etc. etc. we need to embrace this and help it happen before we are all toast because of oil!

[Joseph C.]

[REdiculous]

Yeah but the more people buy them the cheaper they get... We just need more of them available. The range is fine for 99% of the worlds needs. people need to quit worrying about range it scares them because of all of the propaganda. And those who want more range will get it will bigger battery options which will come in time. But If I got a leaf I would opt for the small battery there is no reason to carry a big battery you are not going to use.

The production quantity is controlled to maintain exclusivity and a specific price point. They don't magically get cheaper because more people buy them - more people can't buy them because they aren't producing enough to meet the demand. And if we're honest, the Leaf's sticker price is jacked up, in part, because there are incentives (thx taxpayers!) that bring it down to a somewhat more reasonable level.

The range is not fine for 99% of the world's needs. It may be ok if you live in a big city but if you live 35 miles out you're screwed. People do need to worry about the range and they need to demand more. If I got the Leaf I'd need at least twice the capacity, preferably 4 times. As it is, it would barely get me to the coast, and not back. As it is, it would get me to the nearest "big" city, where all the shopping is, but I would have to turn right back around for fear of not being able to make it back. It wouldn't get me to the nearest airport, never mind trying to make it back.

Also you need to consider there will be some loss of range as the batteries age...hopefully it's minimal.

I would only use ~40 % of the battery a day (round trip) and I commute 1/2 hour to work!
In the end charging stations will come the be faster look at a nanotech lipo battery its nothing to get a battery that can be charged in 7.5 minutes and all they need is charging stations that can hold and dump energy fast. The batteries will get better and packs with more density smaller in size etc. etc. we need to embrace this and help it happen before we are all toast because of oil!

I would use 100+% almost every time I drove it. For me, a half hour drive is about 35 miles mostly on the freeway. The time it takes to charge isn't the real issue, it's the (lack of) capacity. With current tech you can get like 85% charge in 15 minutes or something like that....that's good enough and probably won't get significantly better because chargers capable of more would be prohibitively expensive. There's room for improvement on home chargers but again, cost is a primary concern....to really dump that much power that quick would require the charger to have a battery because the standard plugs in your house can't keep up.


If the Leaf had 3 times the range I'd reverse my opinion and talk it up non-stop. As it is, it's too expensive for shitty range.

[TylerDurden]

Electricity and batteries will keep getting cheaper, oil will keep getting more expensive.

[REdiculous]

Think about this; The Leaf's MSRP is $35,200. With the max federal tax incentive it's $27,700.

Look around for a used car and surely you'll find something decent for $7,700. That leaves you $20,000 to convert it to electric. A quick search found a conversion kit for about $7000. That leaves you $13,000 to spend on the batteries and related bits. 50, 3.2v 160ah Thundersky cells is like $10,000, gives you about 25kwh (if I did the math right) and will weigh about 615lbs. That leaves $3000 for the charger and BMS....probably gonna be a little shy here but whatever.

Looks to me like you can make your own version of the Leaf and it shouldn't cost significantly more even though you'd be paying retail prices. Start with a car you already own or use a cheaper used car (it just needs to roll) and you'd come out a little ahead.

[pdf]

So I'll chime in. REdiculous has some valid points. His argument basically boils down to, "The Leaf is not for everyone". I think we'd all have to agree with that. It is suitable for some people, which is the best that can be said for any car. I'd find it alot more useful than a Ferrari if I was not allowed to sell the Ferrari to buy a fleet of Leafs. In our household, we have two cars, one is an SUV and one is a compact car. I ride my eBike most days, but drive if I need to carry someone else or if it is raining cats and dogs. Neither my wife or I would not exceed the range of a vehicle with half the range of the Leaf on virtually any workday and very few weekends. However, we do a lot of home projects and would need something that can pull a small trailer anyway. So we'd probably keep one gas burner, but we have two cars anyway.

Consider that over 60% of trips are taken for destinations less than 15 miles from home and that of those, the overwhelming majority (around 85%?) have one person in the car. From that point of view, the Leaf may actually be overkill for most trips. But as REdiculous points out, it will not be good for all trips.

I am not a battery expert. There is probably a fundamental limit on the practical specific energy capacity of a battery, but I don't know what it is. Even if the range for a personal vehicle is substantial, it seems unlikely that commercial transport will be powered by batteries. So in the best case we will probably have a mix of biofuels for commercial transport and e-vehicles and biofuels for personal transportation.

Lastly, I think the contention that hydrogen powered vehicles are a non-starter is a bad one. If you've never heard John Turner from NREL speak, you should try to catch a seminar if possible. If you are going to use hydrogen though, I would suggest using a fuel cell because it overcomes the thermodynamic limits of heat engines. Also, you need to come up with a sustainable way to produce hydrogen, since practially speaking, hydrogen is an energy carrier, like a battery, and not an energy source. That is my day job, actually. Back in the 90s, I think, (maybe early 2000s?), a fuel cell and hydrogen tanks were installed in an SUV (don't remember which one). No interior space in the vehicle was used. The vehicle was driven 300 miles up the coast of CA on one fill-up. And by the way, about half of hydrogen produced today is actually used by the petroleum industry in hydrocrackers and hydrotreaters. Go to: http://utkstair.org/stair/seminar_topics_fall2010.html and scroll down to the links for John Turner's presentation. I think the fuel cell car is mentioned in that presentation. That page is the seminar schedule for a graduate program I directed last academic year.

PS: I've driven a Leaf. It is a very nice car. Even if you could build your own for a slightly lower cost, you'd have a hard time matching the quality of the final product.

[auraslip]

Fuel cells and the whole "hydrogen economy of the future" is just smoke and mirrors to convince people that electric vehicles are not the end game transportation for the majority of the world and that they (in this case big auto and big oil) are doing something to get away from an oil economy. Tell me that I'm wrong, please, but the fact is current fuel cells are laughably expensive on account of the expensive metals in them and completely retrofitting our fuel infrastructure to hydrogen would be the largest infrastructure project EVER. Affordable, useable fuel cells are not useable in the foreseeable future (right up there with flying cars!), and "they" know it. But they can delude the masses that it's the FUTURE. That EVs are expensive, battery powered, range anxiety inducing, maintenance nightmares, and that Hydrogen is where it's at. It allows them to go, "Oh, battery powered cars aren't what your kids will be driving. They'll be driving a car that fills up at a Shell Hydrogen pumping station. Look here at this fancy, magical hydrogen car. It's real AND IT EXIST TODAY! So be a good little consumer, and stick to gasoline until we can sell you on hydrogen."

And that would be never. It's never going to happen, and they know it. They just want to milk every dime they can out of oil, and look "green" and "forward thinking" while doing so.

[Arlo1]

The only reason I am interested in Hydrogen is because it can be burnt in my road runner so I can have a fun ICE with all the sounds and for things like barbeques etc.
And only in the case i make it my self so I dont have to pay some other person money for my fuel. But I 100% know electric cars are the answer as this happens there will be people who try to limit what we do but if we are smart we will all be putting solar wind and hydro power on our own propety asap!

[bobc]

I just read this....
TG's anti- electric bias is a bit stupid - Here's what they did:
They found a city (Lincoln) without public charging points
They invented a bizzarre journey to go through that town (a trip to the seaside - from guildford I don't think you'd head in that direction...)
They Half emptied the car's batteries before setting off.
They drove in circles for 10 miles once in lincoln because it wasn't running out on cue.
This does all seem a bit naughty for a program allegedly about motoring. Whilst I appreciate their humour and enthusiasm, I think this kind of misinformation is probably doing the environmental movement great harm.
Electric cars are great for commuting NOW - they don't need better batteries or any other technology for most UK journeys.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... p-gear-bbc