There's a new sheriff in town (new pics on p5)

[Arlo1]

because it's a whole lot more fun and quick than a car.

John

I really hate driving a ICE car now. I really notice how the throttle response of electric can't be matched!

[John in CR]

Sorry Arlo1 and DoctorBass, [/attachment]

Haha Nice. I know better then to try to make the fastest in the world. I still ride mine every day and even turned the power down a bit I found that turning the phase amps down a bit lost a touch of torque and gained HP. I will build a faster better one but for now I am going to build a real electric motorcycle and then a car and many other things. Don't worry though I have 2 collossus motors

Yeah, I'm with you, and I stay away from fastest claims too, other than maybe fastest street legal ebike. I know you guys have some crazy stuff coming down the pipe, but after Luke gave hubbies black eye I had to get some respect back in our court, so at least for a few days there's a hubmotored ebike that no one wants to pull up next to at a red light.

[John in CR]

because it's a whole lot more fun and quick than a car.

John

I really hate driving a ICE car now. I really notice how the throttle response of electric can't be matched!

I loved driving for 35 years, but now I hate it too. By quicker, I was talking about running around town. Everything from traffic to parking my ebikes get errands done quicker. Hell, I don't even have to wait as long for the electric gate to open and close, because I zip through and start closing it before it's all the way open. Plus there's something unique about zipping around with the virtual silence of a hubbie that makes those vacuum cleaner sounding ebikes miss the mark.

[jonathanm]

Yeah, I'm with you, and I stay away from fastest claims too, other than maybe fastest street legal ebike.

Haha thats cheating though....I'm sure if you moved to Somalia you would find the street legal definition even looser. Maybe we should have a "street legal in Boston" (or Cali, or London or some other randomly picked place) category.

Not to detract from what you're doing of course, its looking real good, and I'm glad you have the streets of CR to do it in There is one of those Cannondale frames going cherap locally, so I'd like to hear more opinions about it.....

[John in CR]

Cheating, that's a good one. LOL! No problem, fly your Somalian ebiker here with his ebike, and I'll be glad to race him. I'll even supply batteries, so he doesn't have to worry about traveling with them.

BTW, it's my cargo hauling school taxi daily rider that's still the fastest street legal ebike in the world. This new toy is just drastically quicker to 50. I'm just not into high speed, and DoctorBass likes having his number up there. eg I didn't ride any faster on the motorcycles I've owned than I do on my ebikes. For me WOT is just during acceleration, making passes, and going up hills.

[Arlo1]

I loved driving for 35 years, but now I hate it too. By quicker, I was talking about running around town. Everything from traffic to parking my ebikes get errands done quicker. Hell, I don't even have to wait as long for the electric gate to open and close, because I zip through and start closing it before it's all the way open. Plus there's something unique about zipping around with the virtual silence of a hubbie that makes those vacuum cleaner sounding ebikes miss the mark.

Yeh I knew you meant that and yes I get around WAY FASTER on my ebike. I have the garage door opener on mine so I just zip right in, cutting through Allys and places they don't allow cars. I even use the side walk to make short cuts and cross walks ect. The list is endless.

[John in CR]

Arlo1,
You should see the inside of this hubbie. It's like a cavern in there, so your cooling method would be a piece of cake. It's going to take a lot more controller than I have or pulling a heavy trailer or something to need ventilation.

LI-ghtcycle,
I took a leisurely 10 mile ride this morning keeping it down in the 25-30mph range except for a few car passing blasts that I couldn't resist. I wanted to check efficiency at lower speeds, and make sure the controller didn't mind. At the end of the ride, the motor was actually cool to the touch, something I've never seen after a ride, so yes the motor is fine at lower speeds.

[Arlo1]

Arlo1,
You should see the inside of this hubbie. It's like a cavern in there, so your cooling method would be a piece of cake. It's going to take a lot more controller than I have or pulling a heavy trailer or something to need ventilation.

LI-ghtcycle,
I took a leisurely 10 mile ride this morning keeping it down in the 25-30mph range except for a few car passing blasts that I couldn't resist. I wanted to check efficiency at lower speeds, and make sure the controller didn't mind. At the end of the ride, the motor was actually cool to the touch, something I've never seen after a ride, so yes the motor is fine at lower speeds.

That sounds pretty sweet but since luke dyno'd his flaming cock motor and showed how bad they saturate. I am all about having a motor with some rpm so I can make some real HP!

[John in CR]

That makes sense for the kind of power you guys are after. I've got enough HP for now, and silence, absolute dependability, low cost, and easy implementation are higher priorities for me. That said, I do want to try a 2wd or a leaning 3wd with some of the high power hubbies I have.

[mat h physics]

some high temp shock resistant ceramic that I have, Rescor's 750 http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/onepg700.pdf, which will even allow me to weld thicker material should a crack develop later.

This frame is a short-term solution to learn from, which I will replace with a scratch build using steel and composite construction that's been nagging at me as long as putting this big hubbie in service has, so it should be out of high power service long before any fatigue life of the frame areas.

John

So it this the same AL2O3, Si2O2 found in granite? Is it refined from granite, and what are its applications?

[John in CR]

some high temp shock resistant ceramic that I have, Rescor's 750 http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/onepg700.pdf, which will even allow me to weld thicker material should a crack develop later.

This frame is a short-term solution to learn from, which I will replace with a scratch build using steel and composite construction that's been nagging at me as long as putting this big hubbie in service has, so it should be out of high power service long before any fatigue life of the frame areas.

John

So it this the same AL2O3, Si2O2 found in granite? Is it refined from granite, and what are its applications?

Applications, I don't know. A group of us in what now seems like another life split a bulk order to use it to cast ceramic pistons for stirling engines. After months of bickering about the design, the group effort was abandoned. I was mostly along for the ride, and this main tube reinforcement from the inside is the first good application I've run into to use some of mine.

[auraslip]

I'd check first for used e-scooters, because of the near impossibility of finding someone to repair, I'd bet they are becoming available for super cheap often with only dead batts as the problem.

Yes.... should be.... not talking about moped ones, but larger more "scooter" looking ones. I repaired one a few months back, and the hub looked pretty big. It was of such low quality though, I'm not even sure it's worth upgrading the pack to lithium or replacing the lead pack. The pack should be dead by now, so maybe I should hit him up.... he only got it for $600 so he'd part with it for a lot less than that with all the problems that comes with such a cheap toy.

[John in CR]

The motors and maybe controllers too may be the only quality items on those big scooters. The reason is that a poor motor won't survive more than a few minutes at the loads and speeds required. Every scooter hubbie I've seen or heard about absolutely blow the downright poor quality of a 9C, which I've seen first hand...ie crap bearings and an out of balance by a wide margin rotor. Their popularity around here doesn't surprise me considering the worship of Xlyte motors that are only a small step better, as most recently demonstrated by the sale of new motors requiring modifications fresh out of the box (not the first time). Some of the stuff others see as acceptable, I find inexcusable and obvious indications that China keeps the best stuff at home. We're talking about electric motors here, something easily designed for a decade or more of service life.

[LI-ghtcycle]

The motors and maybe controllers too may be the only quality items on those big scooters. The reason is that a poor motor won't survive more than a few minutes at the loads and speeds required. Every scooter hubbie I've seen or heard about absolutely blow the downright poor quality of a 9C, which I've seen first hand...ie crap bearings and an out of balance by a wide margin rotor. Their popularity around here doesn't surprise me considering the worship of Xlyte motors that are only a small step better, as most recently demonstrated by the sale of new motors requiring modifications fresh out of the box (not the first time). Some of the stuff others see as acceptable, I find inexcusable and obvious indications that China keeps the best stuff at home. We're talking about electric motors here, something easily designed for a decade or more of service life.

I'm going to try and find such a motor/controller of the 48V 1000W+ locally used first, but if that fails, where would you recommend I look as far as ordering a scooter hub motor?

I have found one that looks to be a good match from a company on alibaba, and from the description, it would appear I can order a 10" scooter hub motor with a case that would allow it to accept a bicycle freewheel, and sell for somewhere in the $50-$100 range, (not sure about shipping) and minimum order # of 2.

I'm thinking that a 10 inch wheel hub is going to be pretty small diameter compared to my Amped 9 x 7 DD hub, even if it has a welded rim attached, if I can get one small enough I can even have it behind the seat of my recumbent!

[John in CR]

Respectable scooter hubbies weren't that price even a few years ago. That sounds more like one for those 500W scooters with FW and all. I've never gotten my mitts on one of those, though I've seen a couple of brushed motor junkers here in CR. If brushless it could have some potential, but it's really just an ebike DD hubbie with a 10" OD rim, and not at all comparable to Hubmonster.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Respectable scooter hubbies weren't that price even a few years ago. That sounds more like one for those 500W scooters with FW and all. I've never gotten my mitts on one of those, though I've seen a couple of brushed motor junkers here in CR. If brushless it could have some potential, but it's really just an ebike DD hubbie with a 10" OD rim, and not at all comparable to Hubmonster.

Agreed, However, I'm looking for a more sedate motor, just smaller diameter than the 9C I have currently.

Here is one that those with a need for speed might find interesting, it comes with a controller for 60V 55A with two speeds, one for climbing one for going fast:

1500W Brushless Hub Motor & controller with as high as 93% efficiency.Two speeds shift to ensure high speed and good climbing.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/471184488/1500W_Brushless_Hub_Motor_controller.html

If it's still not enough for ya, here is another one that I found:

http://successmotor.en.made-in-china.com/product/GqUERDgyJfVC/China-Brushless-Hub-Motor-1500w-2500w.html

This one is listed as a 1500W - 2500W 48V - 72V efficiency at 83% also stuffed in a 10 inch wheel.

[RallySTX]

I never felt more castrated in my life! Sure would like to see a humonster on the Spoiler. That sure would take the worry out of climbing hills arround here. Truth is I'll be lucky to finish it anyway. But it's nice to see such a fine beasty loosed. I like the way your mind works John. Mabye one day I'll win the lotto and pay you to build one for me. Thanks, for the second hand EV grin. I'm proud of ya! You can be Sherrif if ya want, I always was a criminal at heart. Catch me if you can.
Brian L.

[John in CR]

Thanks Brian,
As temporary as it will probably be I'm one of those Sheriffs only there to be able to make his own rules. Yeah, with the really wide rim Hubmonster would look sweet on a chopper. You'd have to move the seat further forward though to keep the front wheel down.

[etard]

I completely missed this thread! What a coincidence that I found a very similar hub and controller the same weekend. I love the look of the Hubmonster John, looks like a scooter mixed with a DH bike. Can you give us some more detailed pics of your drive side mounting? I'll be modding the side cover today on mine, I'll be sure to take some pics of the final arrangement, it should be fairly straight forward. I will also have to turn down the drum brake housing, but I don't plan on putting more than 10kw through it anyway.

[GCinDC]

awesome john. it's wild to see two sets of dropouts there. i'd love to see a closeup photo.

i'm sure you've got some manly bolts pinching the axle there to manage the torque, no?

[John in CR]

awesome john. it's wild to see two sets of dropouts there. i'd love to see a closeup photo.

i'm sure you've got some manly bolts pinching the axle there to manage the torque, no?

Thanks. It will be even more wild to see it with the 12" outside diameter by 4" wide rear tire with mid-drive for those other dropouts.

The motor would be fine with just the axle nuts, since I'm not running regen yet. The 20mm wide leaf spring steel surrounded by 1/4" steel plate for the vertical piece is a tap on fit to the axle, so the high grade 5/16ths bolts are long-term piece of mind.

Some of the welds have ugly sections, so closeups have to wait until post beautification efforts. My only issue with the bike is brake dive, so I really need a fork with a lockout, or whatever the on demand travel lock is called.

I've become accustomed to the big travel suspension and can move the bike around as I want, but I now understand Luke's position about race bikes needing very little rear travel. The big travel makes the ride more like a 70's land barge Cadillac than a modern sports car. I haven't tried a speed bump at speed, but even with that over 30lb rear wheel it's been like floating on a cloud with everything I've thrown at it.

[wineboyrider]

Yeah etard JohninCR is sneaky huh???

[John in CR]

There were a few items I wanted to change, and I launched the new and improved beast today. Here's what she looks like, no beautification yet until I finish this second testing phase. Performance is WOW and now she handles great too.

Super V with Hubmonster new swingarm.JPG

(42.85 KiB) Downloaded 110 times

Since they can't hear me coming or I catch them by surprise, here's the view every car and motorcycle has gotten so far.

Super V Hubmonster rear view.JPG

(35.75 KiB) Downloaded 110 times

Here's a list of improvements and mods since my last post:
- Built new swingarm adding another 3" of length and losing 7lbs. I planned ahead to fit batteries in the swingarm and have 15ah of 20s lipo in there. I also increased the pivot to shock attachment distance to give me the same leverage on the shock as the original far shorter Cannondale swingarm.

- Repaired frame damage at the suspension attachment. The main tube now has a solid plug running from the top tube down to the 2 seat supports. Below the bottom point is 1" of silicone and the bottom stuffed with foam rubber as bottom fill. This was almost a disaster. We mixed the high temp/high impact ceramic discussed in a previous post and pumped it into the main tube that is accessible through a large hole inside the headset as it comes from the factory. Apparently the activating liquid was no longer active and the little that did cure was like weak chalk. Luckily water and a skinny rod got it all back out.

We gave up later ability to weld and used epoxy+fiberglass to make a solid plug. First we drilled a 12mm hole at the bottom of where we wanted the plug, and then stuffed the region of the plug tightly with fiberglass cloth. We temporarily plugged the bottom headset hole and all other holes (water bottle screws and welding weep holes in the frame except our new one at the bottom of our plug and the top hole of the headset, which was our access for materials. We mixed up slightly more epoxy than needed to fully saturate the fiberglass, and used tubing and a 2 liter bottle to pump the epoxy directly down to the plug area. We used gravity and an electric tire pump to pressurize the main tube above the plug to force the epoxy down into cloth plug, like vacuum resin injection but in reverse since we had no vacuum pump.

The epoxy didn't quite make it to the very bottom and flow out of the access hole, so we pulled all of the pieces of dry cloth we could out through our bottom access hole. The epoxy came less than an inch short. To fill that we got a bunch of cloth pieces ready, mixed up more than enough epoxy, and started stuffing in saturated cloth back into the hole. We kept stuffing more and more cloth with excess epoxy flowing back out of the hole. Several minutes before the epoxy started to gel we had gotten as much cloth stuffed into the hole as possible, which ensured a good cloth/epoxy ratio and a super strong plug. Which was essential, because the crushing force of the shock mount had started to deform the thin AL tube due to our steeper force angle and the original owner's inadequately repaired crack. Now that frame is tremendously stronger than the original with a solid plug at it's one weak point with a weight cost of little more than a pound.

-The saddle was too high and forward, so I built a triangular extension made of steel. As long as the original tube holds up to the extra leverage, I'm good to go. If I begin to see any cracks, I'll just cut off the seat tube and use a composite approach to extend the top tube with overkill in terms of strength like my plug in the downtube.

-The shock attachment was showing some stress at the hole, and I wanted that mount to be adjustable, so I made a new multi-hole plate shaped to fit the curve of the main tube. It is secured by 2 thick #9 bolts running right through the solid fiberglass plug. I included a bunch of small shallow holes in both the AL and the steel, and applied a layer of metalized epoxy over the entire joint and bolted it in place. I didn't want to use only the bolts because the fit wasn't machine perfect and there were some unavoidable gaps, so the epoxy created a perfect fit and hopefully prevent galvanic corrosion.

Super V steel shock mount.JPG

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-Changed handlebars and turned stem backward. I needed this to both reduce weight on the hands, and to have hand placement to be able to push my weight backward to counteract the significant brake dive of a 7" travel front suspension. This also frees up the front to easily fit another 5ah20s in front of the headset. I'll cover the batteries and odd looking stem with a small moto faring I have that enhances looks nicely.

-Modified a 203mm bike brake disc (straight spokes, thanks for that important tidbit LFP) to fit a 3 bolt moto disc mount on Hubmonster. I really didn't want to add the extra weight of a moto caliper for a rear brake, especially with regen coming later.

Super V Hubmonster 203mm brake disc.JPG

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My TODO list:
-Add switch to swap between high torque and high speed timing of the dual hall sensors.
-Widen throttle resolution (too twitchy with response within only half of throttle movement range)
-Add reduced speed switch for slick conditions and slower speed riding
-Add regen and CA ability to controller or swap controllers
-Swap out front brake caliper for hydro and install left grip
-Fab rear caliper mount and install
-Fab FW mount and run chain after I secure the needed wider bottom bracket
-Thicken and shorten phase wires from controller wires (double 10ga) to axle
-Reassemble battery cells as 3p and reduce balance taps to 4 for 20 or 24s
-Install removable 5ah at headset
-Paint and install front faring
-Enclose swingarm with 3mm ply and fiberglass to become ventilated battery box
-Go to town with a grinder on swingarm and seat extension. There has to be a few extra pounds there to lose
-Disassemble and paint after metal cleanup

This motor is screaming for more current and voltage. I made an 10 mile ride this am with the ride out a continuous uphill grade including lots of high power blasts and the motor wasn't even warm when I stopped at the top. I haven't gone WOT for more than a few seconds, but at 20s it will top out well above 50mph. I do get on the highway occasionally, so extra top end is nice however seldom I use it.

John

[BlackArrow]

Hi John,

Wich one did you buy for this electric bike ?

http://kellycontroller.com/brushless-hu ... 21_62.html

Good day!
Black Arrow

[John in CR]

Hi John,

Wich one did you buy for this electric bike ?

http://kellycontroller.com/brushless-hu ... 21_62.html

Good day!
Black Arrow

I got it very slightly used from someone with an XM3500 scooter. The speed version with the 13" rim that Kelly sells is probably the closest, but those may only have identical covers. I have no idea if they have dual halls like mine. Note that this puppy is probably too heavy for significant off-road.