20KW 2WD having misfires (but can do a double burnout)

Yes - they are - but then I have never broken a plastic one.

Believe it or not I actually have *too much* resolution on my Magura.
It was starting to make my wrist hurt twisting it as far as I had to.
I have sense lowered the resolution.

-methods

Is the vid of the double burnout in this thread? I looked and I can't find it arrgs!

vanilla ice said:

Is the vid of the double burnout in this thread? I looked and I can't find it arrgs!

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Yeh I think its in the first 6 pages I downloaded it from this thread! Methods shoud get into the youtube thing!

Ah damn. Yeah its there, I guess I never clicked on page2. Nice.

Youtube has pissed me off too many times.
Every time I upload a video it looks like dancing blocks of distortion. I dont know how to upload HD and when I tried to upload my wedding vid they turned off my audio track.
Those guys can kiss my domain owning ass. I dont need them.

-methods

methods said:

Youtube has pissed me off too many times.
Every time I upload a video it looks like dancing blocks of distortion. I dont know how to upload HD and when I tried to upload my wedding vid they turned off my audio track.
Those guys can kiss my domain owning ass. I dont need them.

-methods

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Man your to funny! I have one video I got warned about but they let the audio track stay, guess motley crew liked my rc car back flip vid! lol.

Speeking of how dangerous thumb throttles are I was just out practicing wheelies with the switch on the 75% speed setting up a hill at 40km/h I had a decent one going and pinned it let of repetadly till I pinned it then let off and my grip had slid over to the throtle and held it at full throtle needless to say I hat about 50k as I flew off the back and you can't even try to run 50 km/h so wham as fast as my feet touched pavemet my knees smashed the pavement and man it hurt right away then I layed ther in pain with my bmx about 30 feet further up the hill But the good news is the blood on the right leg looks just like the blood on the left leg! 8) Guess its carma for making fun of you hu methods?

Edit: Oh and to rub it in more I was limping to my bike so I could have a nice ride home with as little pain as possible and it quit! A quick look discovers I sliced the thumb throttle wires when it smashed the pavement

Arlo1 said:

Speeking of how dangerous thumb throttles are I was just out practicing wheelies with the switch on the 75% speed setting up a hill at 40km/h I had a decent one going and pinned it let of repetadly till I pinned it then let off and my grip had slid over to the throtle and held it at full throtle needless to say I hat about 50k as I flew off the back and you can't even try to run 50 km/h so wham as fast as my feet touched pavemet my knees smashed the pavement and man it hurt right away then I layed ther in pain with my bmx about 30 feet further up the hill But the good news is the blood on the right leg looks just like the blood on the left leg! 8) Guess its carma for making fun of you hu methods?

Edit: Oh and to rub it in more I was limping to my bike so I could have a nice ride home with as little pain as possible and it quit! A quick look discovers I sliced the thumb throttle wires when it smashed the pavement

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did you break my motor


lol .. dude be carful with that beast!

-steveo

No stevo I got it all fixed up had to line up the wheel again and fix the throtte wires. Its all working and stays cool now too its realy hard to over heat a motor when you are laying in the middle of the road wimpering like a little school girl! :wink:

I have a thumb throttle from Kelly that randomly sticks at full throttle.
Nice work mincing up your knees.

When you film the "midnight drunken tighty whitey burnout" please wear knee pads

hmmm.... that would be a suspicious site - dude walking around in the middle of the night wearing nothing but tighty whities and knee pads

-methods

LOL to funny proly happen so and we can all hope there is a camera around.
So I got the wheels turning again. I like speed and I want to ride a 2wd bike! So......
How do I determin which 9C to use in the front? I managed to gain some top speed with the 120 speed setting and my x5 so I think the 2806 looks like it will match up. On the ebike simulator program it shows the 2807 and the x5304 to be about the same but it shows a top speed of just over 85 with my 21 inch wheel is that loaded or freewheel? because my freewheel speed was 95 km/h with the 20 inch tire!
Ok and the CA how do you get it to read from both controlers? For total system amps?
Any one figure out traction control or do I need to do that to
lol just buggen and doing some bench racing stupid elbow is seized I can't straiten it or touch my face! might have to put the twist grip on the other side lol.

Arlo1 said:

Any one figure out traction control or do I need to do that to

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You crazy bugger Arlo!
You could guess the setting in the CA to compensate for the other motor if you don't want to use an external shunt.
You gotta be carefull and wear protection or some funeral director will have fun with your O ring :x 8)

This will likely take me a couple months to compleat and that will help the wallet and let me have a chance to figure out how to make each wheel spin the same rpm.
I have one Idea where I could build a cuircit that reads from 1 hall sensor in each wheel and what the pulses get faster in the front wheel it gives a signal to the front ebrake! I will likely have regen on low or off for the front wheel so this might work well.

You basically want to run a stand alone CA now.
You can make this from your CA - kind of like THIS

Unplug from controller
Find mating pigtail
Find 250uOhm shunt
Solder shunt between pair of Anderson (see link above)
Right at the shunt you solder Ground, shunt -, shunt +
On the positive you solder V+
You use a mag sensor for Speed
You dont use the ebrake out

As far as the simulator - you will probably find that your actual top speed is about 20% below the point where the speed line crosses zero.
This makes sense if you look up at the power - you can see where the KV starts to drop off.
This is the rule of thumb I use. Things start to go really non-linear though when you get up to higher speeds. Works good up to around 40 - 50mph.

-methods

methods said:

You basically want to run a stand alone CA now.
You can make this from your CA - kind of like THIS

Un

As far as the simulator - you will probably find that your actual top speed is about 20% below the point where the speed line crosses zero.
This makes sense if you look up at the power - you can see where the KV starts to drop off.
This is the rule of thumb I use. Things start to go really non-linear though when you get up to higher speeds. Works good up to around 40 - 50mph.

-methods

Click to expand...

Maybe we have a different program mine shows the actual top speed I get when I enter ~96 volts in, but even if I enter 100 volts in I get about 5 k more then the simulator says I should for freewheel speed, Is this cause 120 speed setting works for me maybe?

Arlo1 said:

Maybe we have a different program mine shows the actual top speed I get when I enter ~96 volts in, but even if I enter 100 volts in I get about 5 k more then the simulator says I should for freewheel speed, Is this cause 120 speed setting works for me maybe?

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No.
I use the ebikes.ca simulator. What are you using?

The Ebikes.ca simulator shows the peak freewheel speed.
To show the actual top speed of the bike you need to calculate in all sorts of shit including efficiencies and wind resistance.
You using sw's simulator?

-methods

Yeh it says created by swbluto at endlesssphere forums. It has helped so far and untill I used the 120 speed setting it was fairly acurate.

I tried his simulator once and it was very accurate for the setup I entered.

-methods

I think I know how to solve the dual controller problem

We have been focused on the throttle this whole time - but I dont think it is the throttle that is being thrown off.

I THINK IT IS THE HALL SENSORS

* Infineons are particularly sensitive to poor hall signal. If your hall cable is longer than 4' you get the same "POP POP POPOP" behavior as you get with dual controller.
* If the hall connectors get wet I get the same misfires
* If I hold the throttle at say - 10mph put pedal to around 11mph I get misfires

There are sync and S/N issues with the halls.

Can someone please run an experiment?
I think that if we run the hall sensors at 15V instead of 5V the problem will go away.
I dont have time now - maybe later.


Have I already said this? :|

-methods

SOLVED

A member asked me to help him put together a 2WD bike. This gave me an excuse to disassemble two 1/2 twist throttles and build them into one.





View attachment 4








These particular throttles are from Ebikes.ca. There are many types of hall throttle - this particular model is very nice. The hall slides right out and there is room to mount a second hall in tandem.

Tips:

* In the minimum throttle position the magnet actually rotates a little too far. This actually raises the minimum throttle voltage. Glue in a small spacer (small zip tie?) to offset the minimum voltage. (Picture 007)

* The hall sensors behave the same upside down - mount the second one upside down to make room for the wires.

* Mounting the second hall in tandem will result in a slightly lower reading. The closer you get the hall the smaller the delta. This delta can be corrected with a small inline resistor or left. I am going to leave the delta to bias power toward the rear wheel. At time zero - 2WD is really just RWD - the front wheel is totally unloaded - so applying equal power will result in nothing but lost traction. At WOT the the power will be equal. At cruising speeds the offset will help (I hope) to avoid interactions between the two motors. Most of the load should be on the rear motor. At any given time the rear motor will carry more load than the front (as it should, unless you like loss of traction on the front wheel)

* Grind away some of the hall mount to get the second hall closer

* Move the strain relief zips ties around for a better fit

Off voltage:
Primary: 813mV
Secondary: 926mV
Threshold: 1.2V

WOT voltage:
Primary: 3.56V
Secondary: 3.48V
Threshold: 3.14V

Bias: 5% toward the rear


Credit to the member who suggested this modification earlier.


There - I have laid another egg. This offsets the fact that I tend to ramble OT. :wink: Those that got bored and stopped following miss out.

-methods

Cool throttle job, Methods! I very am curious to see how it works out. Your last post seemed to be pointing at the halls sensors as the culprits (as you thought in the beginning I believe), so I was a bit surprised to see you do this.

I can see that we are actually looking at two seperate problems problems here, one that only shows up in dual motor setups, and one that is a small but slightly annoying bug in the controller itself. The annoying bug is what we see when the throttle is just around the current cruising speed of the bike, and shows up as a "thud" in the motor. You explain this bug as "If I hold the throttle at say - 10mph put pedal to around 11mph I get misfires".

However, you also say "Infineons are particularly sensitive to poor hall signal. If your hall cable is longer than 4' you get the same "POP POP POPOP" behavior as you get with dual controller." I have yet to see this problem myself, and I had a setup with a very long hall sensor cable from the rear hub, and I had even wrapped the excess lenght around the bike frame - so I had at least six feet of cable without problems.

Now, the dual hub problem shows up like this: block one wheel from spinning while lifting the other one off the ground to let it freewheel. As the blocked hub's controller tries to make it spin, it creates large current pulses on the battery input. This creates "thuds" in the other (freely turning) motor, and does it worse the more throttle you give it. The controller will do this until it decides to cut off the motor altogether. The problem with this is that at low speeds and high torque demand (like right at startup or during slow trail riding), this same problem appears, making random but noticeable "thuds" in one of the hubs. It's not really a huge problem, but an annoyance. Anyways, your dual hall sensor throttle mod I believe will eliminate this problem (but will do nothing for the other real controller bug).

Your trike looks sooooooo fun to ride, I want one!!!! And all that space for batteries, front like you did and behind the seat even if need be. I just finished building my first 6p12s Lipo pack, and just barely managed to fit them into the bike's triangle. It is on my dual 9C hub, 26" road bike that I want to have long range with, so the 1300Wh should get me at least 50km without pedaling at ~40km/h. I'm hoping that it will help much with the winter roads I have to cope with...

I agree with everything stated above.

As far as my band-aid solution - instead of solving the real problem - I could not agree more. I did the band-aid just to get the show on the road but I think we really need to understand the real problem. Hopefully I will have some time next week as I have a week off work.

Enjoy your new 1.3KW pack
Best part is that you will be way above nominal for most all of your ride.

-methods

Couldn't you just use a separate 5v dc-dc to power the throttle?

auraslip said:

Couldn't you just use a separate 5v dc-dc to power the throttle?

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Wow talk about a resurected thread! I think fetcher pointed out a way to do it.... I think you tie the 5v+ and signal together on each controller then leve the negatives seprate but I will have to dig to find this....

All of those methods equaled fail when I tried. Too much noise.... An isolated DC-DC wont work because you have to tie the grounds together anyway so... it does not buy you anything.

The best solution IMHO is to build the double-hall throttle. It is the natural solution and builds in slightly less power to the front hub.

All of this could change too with the newer boards / algo's. Someone should try

-methods