Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water)

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Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water)

Postby methods » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:58 pm

One of the deviants here at MethTek is thinking about putting together a pack built up with Hobby King Lipo and my HVC/LVC/Parallel boards. We would pre-screen the lipo here (no puffed cells and return shipping to worry about!), wire them up in series parallel to specification (say 18S 10Ah), secure all the wiring against moisture and vibration, and deliver a heat shrinked pack with main power leads, balance taps, and throttle retard taps.

Pricing would be basically $50 per 6S 5Ah pack (our cost), $50 per LVC/HVC board (retail price - 2 to 3 needed per pack), with a reasonable assembly / testing fee.

This would eliminate all the uncertainty of ordering from China, paralleling balance taps, wiring main power in series, etc. Our pricing would be comparable with off the shelf packs but with 10x performance... something like an 18S 10Ah could put out 200A at 66V no problem while a Ping pack would be limited to 20A or 40A at 36V or 48V

Now this pack protection we are including taps into the throttle and does not actually stop the pack from being discharged... so from the users perspective your pack will be SAFE - if any cell drops below 3.0V it will cut you off. But... from our perspective we don't have positive control over the battery so we would not be able to do a warranty. You would get my personal word that the pack was built up from tested packs - and of course if something stupid went wrong we would take care of it.... but we would not be able to give a no questions asked warranty since users *could* over-discharge a pack by not implementing the throttle control provided

What do you guys think?

(FYI: An LVC board basically allows all of the cells to be paralleled at the balance taps and monitors every cell in series... if any one cell drops it shorts out your throttle signal so that you can not damage the pack. From the riders perspective this is the ultimate pack low voltage protection. If implemented you "cant hurt" your pack... even if you do something very stupid :D We are also working on a charger interface board that will cut charge if any cell gets above 4.3V - once this is released you will basically be able to let a total numb-nuts ride and charge your bike without concern. This is good :mrgreen: )

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby fabiograssi » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:24 pm

Very Very nice... Subscribed!
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby dnmun » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:00 pm

Meth Tek is not what you want on the letterhead.

you should consult with someone who really knows where your liability ends if you sell product in the US. make sure you put yourself and property into an LLC too.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby Andje » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:20 pm

methods, i just want to point out that as a canadian, we STILL don't have a good source of HK batts available beyond ordering from China or shipping to a border PO office from a US HK warehouse and driving across. I would be interested; there is definitively an oportunity to set a new standard. I would think that Justin might also be interested.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby The Mighty Volt » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:26 am

Meth Kills.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby miuan » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:08 am

Methods, I believe this is an attractive opportunity for many.
But! Be aware that many may also be put away by the lipo price since purchasing 4S hardcases has been much more economical.
Sure, they're sold out for the moment you may argue, but why not just source these for your future builds in the first place?
It's easy to remove the case, inspect the cells and build the pack just like with any other soft pack.
Genuinely interested in your opinion.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby nicobie » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:31 pm

dnmun's reply might be a bit blunt, but he does have a point about the LLC. It really depends on your financial circumstances.

Personally, I think you are on to something. I couldn't count how many times I've read posts asking for a turn key lipo pack. Your new battery monitor now makes it possible. Arlo made a good point too.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby Ypedal » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:46 pm

I've been pondering this type of thing for a long long time.. it's the damn liability part that concerns me..

Offering it in 5ah packs of X voltage, would eliminate the possibility of a parallel cell issue causing further problems, a single 5ah pack can easily deal with a 40 amp controller.

Have even thought of making a " Lipo for simple minds " webpage and force customers to read it before it ships or the deal is off.

bottom line is that any battery treated incorrectly can result in " issues " .. but lipo just makes it happen faster.

I give you Exibit A :
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby methods » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:59 pm

dnmun wrote:Meth Tek is not what you want on the letterhead.

you should consult with someone who really knows where your liability ends if you sell product in the US. make sure you put yourself and property into an LLC too.


The packs will be "Experimental" and I dont have the least bit of concern about liability.
methods = fearless.

The only thing I fear are the crooks in government who charge $900 / year just to have an LLC in California... else I would have one. :roll:


Andje wrote:methods, i just want to point out that as a canadian, we STILL don't have a good source of HK batts available beyond ordering from China or shipping to a border PO office from a US HK warehouse and driving across. I would be interested; there is definitively an oportunity to set a new standard. I would think that Justin might also be interested.


Unfortunately I dont think that is going to change. No way can I ship lithium batteries through customs - just wont happen. I also dont think Justin would be interested - he needs plug and play with a BMS that can actively cut charge/discharge internally to the pack. These will be packs for gangsters.


The Mighty Volt wrote:Meth Kills.


Meth does a body good!


miuan wrote:Methods, I believe this is an attractive opportunity for many.
But! Be aware that many may also be put away by the lipo price since purchasing 4S hardcases has been much more economical.
Sure, they're sold out for the moment you may argue, but why not just source these for your future builds in the first place?
It's easy to remove the case, inspect the cells and build the pack just like with any other soft pack.
Genuinely interested in your opinion.


Actually I don't really follow your logic. The most likely place that a pack will fail is in the external wiring. Using 4S packs just creates more of that wiring. Just to make a 20S 10Ah pack you would need to hodge 10 of those packs together (compared to 6 x 6S packs for 18S 10Ah - almost double the connections) . All those series and parallel connections is where the problems will crop up. As far as any benefit from having them in a hard case... yea, I suppose they are less likely to get punctured but they are more likely to experience some sort of shorting in the external wiring so I don't really know what you gain.

I promote using the largest building blocks you can to reduce the amount of external wiring that needs to be done.


nicobie wrote:dnmun's reply might be a bit blunt, but he does have a point about the LLC. It really depends on your financial circumstances.

Personally, I think you are on to something. I couldn't count how many times I've read posts asking for a turn key lipo pack. Your new battery monitor now makes it possible. Arlo made a good point too.



Any time I hear people talking about liability what I hear is "well meaning alarmist". No disrespect to dnmun - I realize that he is well meaning in his warning - but we are here on the cutting edge of technology trying to push the envelope. I dont have time to worry about bullshit - especially not Lawyers, politicians, patent trolls, or sue-happy money grubbers. I am a true-blue engineer so I dont have two red cents to rub together :P If anybody plans on bringing a lawsuit against me they better be ready to pay their own court fees because I am a broke-ass hillbilly.

Think about how dangerous a chainsaw is, an automobile, a gun...... an outboard boat motor, car battery, or anything else. Life is dangerous - people need to quit depending on the lawyers and government to protect them and start protecting themselves :wink: Best protection a man can buy is an education.

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby fizzit » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:04 pm

Lipo protection... maybe instead of Meth Tek you should have them say Durex :mrgreen:
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby jamo96 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:23 pm

I agree with methods re the liabilities. If you don't know what you are buy then you shouldn't be buying it. Also I thought for a split second that you were testing some lipo in water with protection haha :S
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby dumbluck » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:46 pm

I would be into purchasing them. I'm starting to build small motorcycles for my kids to race and this would be just the ticket. I already have a bunch of dads dogging me to build them for there kids. can you put them in a nice aluminum case for me. keep me updated. I have subscribed.

better toss in pic

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby dumbluck » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:50 pm

about liability. These are strictly for performance and tinker types they know that things don't work right all the time and are willing to give it a go anyway.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby RallySTX » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:52 pm

I like the way Methy does business, count me in, er, eventually. :oops: First I gotta pay Lyen off to get my controllers back. Then there's Christmas, :roll: . I would pay Methods twice the asking price to get tested cells before I deal with HK. I want my money to stay in America, and if possible to go to an ES member. Plus I got a 5x12 from him that told me in a dream that it misses him! :oops: So I think It would love to get some juice from the Methman! :shock:
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby methods » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:22 am

Wow... that is a nice bike.
I am a hack but the guy I am working with (Mathew) has an eye for aesthetics. Maybe we can get lucky and score an extruded case that fits the bill just perfect.
We will keep an eye out.

Otherwise - early prototypes will be heavy gauge heat shrink
(which when layered 2X is essentially bullet proof)

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby Arlo1 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:10 am

Andje wrote:methods, i just want to point out that as a canadian, we STILL don't have a good source of HK batts available beyond ordering from China or shipping to a border PO office from a US HK warehouse and driving across. I would be interested; there is definitively an oportunity to set a new standard. I would think that Justin might also be interested.

Hey guys if Justin doesnt want to be the guy I can be the guy for Canada! So I could cycle and test the packs here and assemble them. Let me know if there is intrest!
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby dumbluck » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:42 am

I've been testing the waters on different batteries but I could also look at sourcing the case once I decide on final form factor. I'm looking to keep as much of my purchasing from es members as possible
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby flatkansas » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:12 am

Methods- What are your thoughts about using these packs from HK.
ZIPPY Flightmax 4500mAh 10S1P 30C Long Lipo Pack (DE Warehouse)

or

Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 10S 35~70C Lipo Pack

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... Search.asp
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby methods » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:28 pm

My personal opinion is that the nano-tech are overkill... buy them if you can afford them but a 20C cell is already way more than you need or can use. By the time you get the cycles out of whatever you buy it will be an antique -> Batteries are improving like computers were improving in the 90's.

As far as the Zippy - I have not looked at them recently but back in the day the Zippy packs had 12awg and short PVC insulated balance taps while the Turnigy had 10AWG longer
power wires, with longer silicone balance taps. Turnigy were also larger (for the same 5Ah) which makes me think margin.

Also... I dont like those long packs because IIRC they are two shorter packs hooked together and heat shrinked. Just sounds like more room for failure to me... but I guess if they are fit for bouncing around inside an RC heli then they are probably good enough for us.

I like Turnigy - but that is just my personal opinion. liveforphysics would have a more informed opinion on the subject.

-methods



flatkansas wrote:Methods- What are your thoughts about using these packs from HK.
ZIPPY Flightmax 4500mAh 10S1P 30C Long Lipo Pack (DE Warehouse)

or

Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 10S 35~70C Lipo Pack

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... Search.asp
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby Ypedal » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:32 pm

last 2 batches i dealt with were zippy 25C cells, i've had much better luck with those vs the 20C turnigy.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby methods » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:59 pm

We ordered our last 10 from the USA warehouse.
Turnigy 20C 6S 5Ah
8 of them were within 10mV
2 of them were within 30mV

Very pleased.
As Luke pointed out... buying them from the USA warehouse allows time for any bad cells to show up in shipping. Cells usually die in the first few weeks if they are going to die - and it takes about that long to get to the USA warehouse. Seasoned cells are what you want.

Are the Zippy taps silicone?
Are the power wires 10AWG?
I would imagine they should be by now as my experience with them is over a year old

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby MadRhino » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:17 pm

methods wrote:...
Are the Zippy taps silicone?
Are the power wires 10AWG?
I would imagine they should be by now as my experience with them is over a year old

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby methods » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:33 pm

Nice :mrgreen:

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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby Ypedal » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:35 pm

Depends on C rate.

These had 10 gauge.
http://ypedal.com/zippy/zippy.htm

The ballance wires are not silicone, they are stiffer cable but still not bad.. i prefer the turnigy in that respect.
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Re: Hobby King 20C Lipo packs with protection (testing water

Postby aaronski » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:23 am

Hey Methods, I just ordered 6 6s5ah packs for a friend to replace his pack, any chance I (he) could be the test subject? we're in Berkeley, so we could just drop off the packs at the shop for transformation. I think it would be a good test subject, because I know what I'm doing, I'll wire up the cutout, etc, but you'll have a non-tech riding it daily.
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