Winter Tire - first ride - Schwalbe Marathon Winter

[Hugues]

UPDATE Dec. 3rd 2011: New info added on Dec. 3rd 2011, please read the newest posts below if you are interested in this tire

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While riding yesterday i saw some nasty icy spots along the road so today i thought i would install my new winter tires with studs.

I bought these:
http://schwalbe.com/gbl/en/produkte/tou ... =Tour/City
Rather expensive, about 80 usd a piece, mounted a pair.

Initial riding on paved road is ok, a bit noisy but that was expected, feels like riding on a paved road with small gravel surface.
They were inflated at 60 psi, pretty much the recommended max.

Rode uphill for about 16 km, mostly paved forest roads, then some nasty trails with a mix of big rocks, mud and grass.
The grip is very good, i was impressed. Also when crossing the stream with the icy patch, no problem. Very good and secure handling.

But that's where the love story ends I stopped for a drink after 16km uphill and checked my tires: yikes !!!! many studs are missing !!!
20 studs gone on front wheel and 56 ! at the back, that's 10% and 30 % !!!!! after 16 km of going up hill only. Bike is 30kg, with me that's 100kg.
I did not ride like crazy, just normal stuff. Pictures below.

Well, too bad, i liked the way they grip. Back to vendor this week, will see what he says.

Any recommendation for better studded tires, that can ride on paved roads and not awfully noisy ?

front.jpg (134.23 KiB) Viewed 974 times

back.jpg (106.13 KiB) Viewed 974 times

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[gogo]

160 PSI sounds high and they are rated for 30-70 PSI?

[LI-ghtcycle]

Yeah, I am amazed that they had good traction at all with that high of PSI!!

To get better performance in slippery stuff, you want to air down, not use the max unless you are hauling a lot of weight, remember that the higher end of the pressure is not recommended unless you're maxing out the total weight allowed for a tire.

I bet if you air down, you won't be loosing so many studs. Maybe they are standard auto studs you can buy?

Years ago as an experiment I drilled a hole in the middle of a knobby of my enduro motorcycle's tire and installed a automotive stud, and it stayed in there with no problems at all!

I think you will find that any tire for the cold weather is going to be softer and wear faster anyway, and pumping it up so high is going to cause uneven wear in the middle of the tread and cut down on traction.

[Hugues]

160 PSI sounds high and they are rated for 30-70 PSI?

Correction
60 psi
I confirm

[dnmun]

yep, just like with cars, go softer with the pressure to keep the studs in place. jmho

[ohzee]

Sad to see you lost so many studs.
Everything I have read/heard on studded tires does say to use less air when riding on ice/snow and more air
when riding on just pavement. So I am surprised to see how many studs you lost.

I bought the following awaiting arrival. If they behave the same I will be highly dissapointed.
Good Luck.

Nokian Extreme Studded pair 294 studs 26x2.1

[BikeFanatic]

I would send those back, unacceptable.

I have two sets of studds, Nokian Extreme 26 inch have lasted two winters still looking good, they are carbide studds. ALso Nokian Halappia or something like that, they are new and for the 700cc bike. The manufacturer recommends that you break them in by riding on pavement for 30 miles. I did that, and I have not had any issues. I found on my regular bike just a stud on the front was good enough on black ice and on the electric as well. They grip so well it is much more difficult to pedal.

[Lenk42602]

I would send those back, unacceptable.

you cannot ride studded bicycle tires in the conditions indicated by the OP with an electric powered bicycle at sustained speeds and expect the studs to stay in the tire casing.

Higher sustained speeds than a normal pedal- bike on paved terrain, then followed by "nasty, rocky singletrack,with just one icy patch + unsprung wheel weight,all lend to what has occurred. Studs are nut seated in bicycle tire casings sufficiently to handle ebike motors without losing a good many.

good luck getting a refund. especially after explaining how they failed given the application and terrain.

Len

[MadRhino]

A studded tire need to be soft for ice, hard for snow, and it's always sh*t on pavement.

A good stud job last only one race or two on the ice, and you have to do it yourself because pre-studded tires are never up to the task.

[Hugues]

I would send those back, unacceptable.

you cannot ride studded bicycle tires in the conditions indicated by the OP with an electric powered bicycle at sustained speeds and expect the studs to stay in the tire casing.

Higher sustained speeds than a normal pedal- bike on paved terrain, then followed by "nasty, rocky singletrack,with just one icy patch + unsprung wheel weight,all lend to what has occurred. Studs are nut seated in bicycle tire casings sufficiently to handle ebike motors without losing a good many.

good luck getting a refund. especially after explaining how they failed given the application and terrain.

Len

we'll see. I won't ask a refund from the vendor, it's a small shop and he does not have to bear the risk. But if HE gets a refund from Schwalbe, then why not.

As for the electric bike: ok, rear tire, heavy bike, motor, etc.. etc.... But what about the front tire ? going uphill only, so no harsh braking, average 25 km/h or less, and loosing 10 % studs in 16 km ride ?!? I can't mount them only when there is only snow or ice. Riding on paved roads with studs during the whole winter must be expected by the vendor. And 10% is without counting those that are not straight anymore and will fall off soon.

[Joseph C.]

we'll see. I won't ask a refund from the vendor, it's a small shop and he does not have to bear the risk. But if HE gets a refund from Schwalbe, then why not.

As for the electric bike: ok, rear tire, heavy bike, motor, etc.. etc.... But what about the front tire ? going uphill only, so no harsh braking, average 25 km/hr or less, and loosing 10 % studs in 16 km ride ?!? I can't mount them only when there is only snow or ice. Riding on paved roads with studs during the whole winter must be expected by the vendor. And 10% is without counting those that are not straight anymore and will fall off soon.

You probably got a defective batch. Hopefully, you will get refunded.

[Hugues]

I would send those back, unacceptable.

I have two sets of studds, Nokian Extreme 26 inch have lasted two winters still looking good, they are carbide studds. ALso Nokian Halappia or something like that, they are new and for the 700cc bike. The manufacturer recommends that you break them in by riding on pavement for 30 miles. I did that, and I have not had any issues. I found on my regular bike just a stud on the front was good enough on black ice and on the electric as well. They grip so well it is much more difficult to pedal.

searching the net for the nokian 294, the reviews are pretty good.

But I guess they are pretty noisy on paved roads ?

I might need 2 bikes here, one to commute, below 600m alt., and one to have fun, above 600m,

[Ykick]

I might need 2 bikes here, one to commute, below 600m alt., and one to have fun, above 600m,

2 bikes (or more) never seems hurt anything and provides ability to specialize some components more than others.

[Hugues]

A studded tire need to be soft for ice, hard for snow, and it's always sh*t on pavement.

A good stud job last only one race or two on the ice, and you have to do it yourself because pre-studded tires are never up to the task.

any link to share that explains DIY studded tires ? that could be an option...

[Joseph C.]

A studded tire need to be soft for ice, hard for snow, and it's always sh*t on pavement.

A good stud job last only one race or two on the ice, and you have to do it yourself because pre-studded tires are never up to the task.

any link to share that explains DIY studded tires ? that could be an option...

If you don't use rim brakes you could use cable ties and wrap them around the tire and wheel.

That is a cheap option. I think someone else posted it here previously.

[qtipslea]

I would send those back, unacceptable.

you cannot ride studded bicycle tires in the conditions indicated by the OP with an electric powered bicycle at sustained speeds and expect the studs to stay in the tire casing.

Higher sustained speeds than a normal pedal- bike on paved terrain, then followed by "nasty, rocky singletrack,with just one icy patch + unsprung wheel weight,all lend to what has occurred. Studs are nut seated in bicycle tire casings sufficiently to handle ebike motors without losing a good many.

good luck getting a refund. especially after explaining how they failed given the application and terrain.

Len

What brand of studded tires can handle a e-bike then?

Thinking about getting one myself for the front wheel. I ride mainly on the sidewalks with occasional paved road.

Toronto-weather!

[MadRhino]

What brand of studded tires can handle a e-bike then?

None, if you ride high power, or faster than bicycle speed.

Even pre-studded motorcycle tires are a specialty, and are not riding good or lasting long. Even worse, most are made specifically for right OR left turn, for they are made for ice racing on oval track.

If you like riding studded tires on mixed surface at high speed or with hard acceleration, you have to make them yourself and be prepared to do them often. The fast way to do yourself is with Kold Cutters screw studs. The performance way is with spikes, and takes at least twice the time to stud your tires, as the time they can last racing.

Anyway, for any serious rider, they are only good for ice or hard transformed snow. On the street, you have better control without. A mud tire with aggressive thread is pefectly suitable for riding the city in the winter. Install the front one in reverse rotating direction, keep your weight forward, and learn counter steering.

[qtipslea]

What brand of studded tires can handle a e-bike then?

None, if you ride high power, or faster than bicycle speed.

Even pre-studded motorcycle tires are a specialty, and are not riding good or lasting long. Even worse, most are made specifically for right OR left turn, for they are made for ice racing on oval track.

If you like riding studded tires on mixed surface at high speed or with hard acceleration, you have to make them yourself and be prepared to do them often. The fast way to do yourself is with Kold Cutters screw studs. The performance way is with spikes, and takes at least twice the time to stud your tires, as the time they can last racing.

Anyway, for any serious rider, they are only good for ice or hard transformed snow. On the street, you have better control without. A mud tire with aggressive thread is pefectly suitable for riding the city in the winter. Install the front one in reverse rotating direction, keep your weight forward, and learn counter steering.

I ride a 350W geared motor. Max speed is like 25 kph. Should be ok then right?

[briogio]

What brand of studded tires can handle a e-bike then?

None, if you ride high power, or faster than bicycle speed.

Even pre-studded motorcycle tires are a specialty, and are not riding good or lasting long. Even worse, most are made specifically for right OR left turn, for they are made for ice racing on oval track.

If you like riding studded tires on mixed surface at high speed or with hard acceleration, you have to make them yourself and be prepared to do them often. The fast way to do yourself is with Kold Cutters screw studs. The performance way is with spikes, and takes at least twice the time to stud your tires, as the time they can last racing.

Anyway, for any serious rider, they are only good for ice or hard transformed snow. On the street, you have better control without. A mud tire with aggressive thread is pefectly suitable for riding the city in the winter. Install the front one in reverse rotating direction, keep your weight forward, and learn counter steering.

I agree 100%, studs are really only beneficial on pure ice. I commuted for 3 entire winters on the South shore of Montreal with Panaracer "Smoke's", they worked really well.
When you hit ice you have to enter a Zen zone of NO movement, brakes, breathing until you're out of it again. Luckily it doesn't happen very often and certainly not often enough to run studs for the other 98% of your ride.
It's a great riding skills education to ride in the winter, lower your seat and learn body English, maybe try some Schwalbe "Muddy Mary's", they've got paddles which are great for snow.

[el_walto]

My Schwalbe ice spikers said right on the label that you should not user heavy acceleration or heavy breaking for the first 40km, so that the studs have time to set.

"it is recommended that one rides not too aggressively (no fast acceleration or slamming on brakes) on pavement for about 40km before using the tires on snow and ice.
The reason for this is that if the tires are used right away, the studs not properly seated in place may come loose and fall out."

[joe tomten]

I followed the above instructions with my schwalbe marathon winter studded tires. Didn't loose a single stud last year.

[MadRhino]

I ride a 350W geared motor. Max speed is like 25 kph. Should be ok then right?

Only with soft start, even a 350w geared hub is capable of acceleration power much higher than anyone pedaling. Depending gear ratio, it can compare with over 1000w fed to a DD hub.

[qtipslea]

I ride a 350W geared motor. Max speed is like 25 kph. Should be ok then right?

Only with soft start, even a 350w geared hub is capable of acceleration power much higher than anyone pedaling. Depending gear ratio, it can compare with over 1000w fed to a DD hub.

Ah. I don't think my 350W geared motor is that powerful. Its a MXUS from Cell_man after all.

I will keep this in mind when I grab a studded tire for the front.

[BikeFanatic]

Maybe the best bet is rear wheel drive Ebike with regular mountain bike knobby on the rear, then the front, you can get a second wheel, one with knobby and one with studs so you can switch them based on the weather quickly in the morning.

I did find that with the ebike just the mountain bike tires were good enough most of the time.

[Hugues]

I followed the above instructions with my schwalbe marathon winter studded tires. Didn't loose a single stud last year.

Interesting.

Could you give some more details :
- type of motor , power
- weight
- tire pressure
- average speed, more or less
- and most importantly, type of winter roads, snow, ice, often on paved roads

Thanks a lot