The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby amberwolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:59 am

Apologies for the OT, but:

oatnet wrote:
hh.JPG
hh.JPG (65.86 KiB) Viewed 1397 times



Hmmm....


Image

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32838

I haven't measured them, but they are about the width of my pointer-finger's length.

Now I wonder what kind of power I can get out of that thing. :twisted:

EDIT: Added measurements:
Stator: 50mm width, 170mm diameter
Magnets: 53mm width, 171mm diameter (0.5mm airgap at most)
Image
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:31 am

John in CR wrote:Anyone know the Kv of these. I'm guessing 15-16ish rpm/volt based on the Italian guy's reported results at high voltage, and if so it's probably a 2 turn, and good luck driving it above 100A. However, 100A is going to be fun with what appears to be a 50mm stator. My main motors are only 40mm and pretty fun. My larger diameter motor is the only hubbie I have with a 50mm lamination stack, and it's big time fun in a 19" diameter wheel. :twisted: Plan on buying controllers 2 at a time if you want to push performance.

You guys are going to have fun with this one. I understand it's pretty light weight for such a big motor, so it will be interesting to find out where they shaved the weight. What's the thickness of the magnet backing ring for example? I heard the motor ran pretty hot at high speed. I'm curious if we're starting to see high enough operating frequency for iron losses to really kick in, or did they save weight with less steel in the core resulting in needing to go to saturation for enough current, or was the bike just improperly geared with too large a wheel for that voltage? I ask because my motor has never run hot on the highway.


I think its more likely 3 turns, but yet if you push it too hard you ll get a smelly controller soon. I wont go over 85v using 4110fets at first to be no the safe side.
Last edited by gensem on Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:15 am

would my lyen 24fet freeway controller be a good match for this one :twisted: ? (i'm sure it is, i just need an expert opinion :D )
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:11 am

fractal wrote:would my lyen 24fet freeway controller be a good match for this one :twisted: ? (i'm sure it is, i just need an expert opinion :D )


It would. Kelly Controllers also have 120v and 144v series.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fechter » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:41 am

Nice :twisted:

Better have some really strong spokes.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:44 am

fechter wrote:Nice :twisted:

Better have some really strong spokes.



When say strong, you mean something like a 12ga sapin?
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:21 am

gensem wrote:
fechter wrote:Nice :twisted:

Better have some really strong spokes.



When say strong, you mean something like a 12ga sapin?

oh yeah 12 minimum. JRH is the man for that
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby chroot » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:37 am

If you are near ilia (ebike-sf) in San Francisco, He can do lacing to the rim, true balance and He is using sipam spokes.
Last edited by chroot on Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:41 am

Im in Brazil -.-
Last edited by gensem on Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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A $1000 35mph bike will get you killed.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby chroot » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:41 am

.
Last edited by chroot on Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:42 am

fractal wrote:oh yeah 12 minimum. JRH is the man for that


Yeah, JRH is putting mine into moto rims/spokes/tires.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:07 pm

oatnet wrote:
fractal wrote:oh yeah 12 minimum. JRH is the man for that


Yeah, JRH is putting mine into moto rims/spokes/tires.

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What size tire and rim??? It will fit your A-line?
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:51 pm

fractal wrote:What size tire and rim??? It will fit your A-line?


That's the plan... Talk to JRH and he'll hook you up.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby andreym » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:37 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Can someone confirm if it's the width of 3 x 9c stators?
I'm drooling at the thought of so much less end-turn losses. Should have a pretty crazy high saturation current as well.


I`m sorry to disappoint you Luke, but it looks like it`s only 2 X 9C width

here is the pictures from http://www.greyb.org/assembler.html
I believe it is the same motor. So stator and magnets of "CroMotor" looks like 55mm and we all know 9C is 28mm

Image

Image

I still have not opened mine, but when I do, I promise to take detailed pictures of the inside :D

btw here is my serial number on the disk brake side cover

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby andreym » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:39 am

Some additional motor pron and more accurate measurements :D

the stator and magnets appear to be ONLY 50mm width though 5404 is only 42mm :D

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


oversized pictures can be found here https://picasaweb.google.com/1108717824 ... fdrLnIlQE#
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby dbaker » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:59 am

Great pictures :D What do you think of the screws holding it together? Were they all in good condition or did some have poor threads? What is your opinion of the rotor mount?

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby itchynackers » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:06 am

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby The Mighty Volt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:58 pm

18X4....what is that, a wind??

Looks a great motor alright.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby liveforphysics » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:48 pm

From this picture, it appears to share the ~200mm stator diameter with the 9C. I was hoping it was Magic Pie diameter. Still the biggest baddest bicycle frocky out there right now though, so I'm not complaining. :-)

Image


It's twice the width of a 9C.

They are both 51teeth and 46poles. (or 23 pole pairs if you're a fancy pants)

The tooth/slot profile looks identical to a 9C.

The 18x4 winding works out to be 72 pieces of copper in the slot though, which is not possible to fit (getting more than an 8x8 at 64pieces is extremely difficult), which tells us it's either using a smaller wire gauge size in the 9C stator lam, or it's a larger/deeper slot. I think they normally wind with 24 awg wire pretty universally for most all hubmotors, so I would like to think it's a deeper slot, which would make it even better than a pair of 9C motors in a single motor, with 50% less end-turn copper loss (which is a pretty huge advantage alone).

A normal 9C's distance measured from the top of the tooth to the steel hub they are pressed upon is 17.25mm.
A normal 9C's slot depth from top of the tooth(edge above the slot) to bottom of the slot is 15.1mm.
A normal 9C's slot width is ~5.2mm (hard to measure well on my wound motor example I'm looking at).

The OD of the enameled wire on a normal 9C is 0.56-0.58mm (the varnish thickness varies slightly), the copper is 0.51mm 24awg.


If we could get some slot dimensions of this motor to compare to the 9C's slot dimensions, and the diameter of the wire used, we should be able to determine pretty well if this motor is indeed a double-wide 9C. Which would be pretty great, way less copper loss from end-turns than running a pair of 9C motors, and the 9C has an excellent magnetic design.

I would hoping it would turn out to be a triple wide magic pie... but this is still fantastic.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby nicobie » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:04 pm

Twice the width of a 9C AND 50% less end turn losses! No wonder they say it goes like hell. :twisted:

Well... it looks like I'm going to be out another 6-7 hundred $ soon. :D
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:10 pm

50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.

The question remains of how many turns. Those end turns sure look like my 2 turn motors, and if so, plan on buying your controllers 2 at a time and watch the phase wire temps.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:22 pm

Image

Thanks for the Pron Andreym! :D :D :D Anyone have a Kleenex?

I guess you got serial number '1'. I can see how JRH might have thought that was the number of turns, when #4 and #5 showed up at the same time. :lol:

LFP wrote:The tooth/slot profile looks identical to a 9C.


Thanks for the technical analysis Luke, it really whets my appetite for this motor. I thought it look 9-c ish too, but I thought that about the HX so I don't have refined enough of an eye to offer up that conclusion. Funny, when Kenny tried to switch the 54xx order onto HX motors, I commented that if he made it 50mm I'd think about it... Let's get an arms race going on hub motors, next up a 60mm hubbie with just a single-speed on it... Oh damn I need another Kleenex.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby flathill » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:59 pm

John in CR wrote:50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.


$125 for motor/controller/andmore? Why aren't you sharing the wealth? Haha

How much do you think the QS3000W costs factory direct? Who makes this motor? Can we mod these ourselves (add disc brake adapter, spoke holes, and axel flats..is that all there is to it)? I think the 13" motors may be overkill for a street bicycle as the 10" is more stealthy and is about the max practical width so it looks perfect to me. I hate the looks of the magic pie and scooter wheels personally
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby The Mighty Volt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 pm

flathill wrote:
John in CR wrote:50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.


$125 for motor/controller/andmore? Why aren't you sharing the wealth? Haha

How much do you think the QS3000W costs factory direct? Who makes this motor? Can we mod these ourselves (add disc brake adapter, spoke holes, and axel flats..is that all there is to it)? I think the 13" motors may be overkill for a street bicycle as the 10" is more stealthy and is about the max practical width so it looks perfect to me. I hate the looks of the magic pie and scooter wheels personally


I got my 1500w rated motor for the same money. I probably will never use it in anger- what I am going to do is use it as a template to draw up and then weld-up a rear-end which is specifically designed for these moped-style motors.

Externally my own motor displays many similarities with those mentioned here, including increased width and decreased weight respective to the X5 series.

Exciting times. :D
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:32 pm

John in CR wrote:50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.

The question remains of how many turns. Those end turns sure look like my 2 turn motors, and if so, plan on buying your controllers 2 at a time and watch the phase wire temps.

John


im pretty sure everything else aside the hub motor was crap (even the hub had flaws) and that was before the inflation....
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A decent 35mph bike will cost around $2000.
A $1000 35mph bike will get you killed.
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