New Agni Racing motor 111RDR

[spinningmagnets]

Since this thread looks like it will have more brushed/brushless motor/controller discussion, I'd like to add some chunks to the chat stew. Here is a website called poor mans EV. The relevant section is on his drag racing 1964 Chevelle. I was surprised he chose such a heavy car, but the conversion was easy, plus RWD, and of course it was the car he could get cheap. http://www.poormansev.com/id22.html

The motor is a BRUSHED forklift motor (Drexel PN 8855), and he runs it through a 2-speed automatic trans. One of the big design choices was (as LFP discussed) what controllers are available? Because he went brushed, he is using dump contacts (clearly not an option for a daily driver), but the point is still valid.

Once someone selects a brushed system, its great that a true-believer like Cedric made his design so that the brushes are easy to change out when new ones are needed, and its great that a bigger Agni is now available. If the Agni had been designed by BMW, it would require special tools that are not sold to the public, and you would be required to send the motor to the factory to have new very expensive brushes installed.

[flathill]

I've recently recieved some new motors from Agni, designed for higher efficiency under higher loadings and thought I'd introduce them here.
I've been having great fun testing these on the dyno, and have found them to be more than capable of 15KW+ continuously. They have been prepared with double thick magnets and are running a larger airgap than before. Other new features include a new better fitting brushholder with adjuster screws to set timing limits (might come in useful for a servo operated automatic ]

Thers a guy with a mod did quantYA with a thumb throttle cable timing adance i always wanted to try it

[Jozzer]

To me, what's amazing is the efficiency of the Agni. The biggest reason most have to prefer a brushless motor is efficiency, yet youd be pretty hard pushed to find a brushless that exceeds the Agni's efficiency accross such a wide useage profile, especially if you include the controller in the calculations.
This run shows data taken whilst inputting 15KW, 20KW, and a burst at 30KW, yet efficiency scarcely drops below 90% through the entire run, only dropping to 86% when hit with 400A/30KW. Of course, this motor was not tuned for 400A, it may have been possible to tune it for lower overall efficiency but higher efficiency at 400A..

Cedric told me the other day he believes he knows how to increase efficiency to over 95%, and has actually seen this figure with the larger motor in his own tests! He's refining the production process to alter any steps that degrade efficiency as I type..

Eff.png

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Power.png

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BTW, I have just taken delivery of a stash of Agni 95R motors, so get em whilst thier (not) hot! I'm also offering a motor rebuild/reconditioning service and have all new parts on the shelf..

Steve

[Jozzer]

Another thought, anyone wanting to build themselves a dyno and needing data aquisition hardware/software drop me a line. If there's enough interest I may look at putting together a kit for it. Of course you can use any motor/controller options you like, though regen is required on one of the controllers..

Steve

[Nuts&Volts]

Any more data, numbers or prices for any of these bad boys. Maybe kinda cool to just drop of these bad boys in with a higher power kelly or alltrax.

Thanks for sharing Jozzer

[c_a]

...only dropping to 86% when hit with 400A/30KW...

can`t belive this, my lynch dropped to <70% at 100V/380Amps, I got only 34HP at the rear wheel

[Jozzer]

Any more data, numbers or prices for any of these bad boys. Maybe kinda cool to just drop of these bad boys in with a higher power kelly or alltrax.

Thanks for sharing Jozzer

Potentially, I have one boxed motor to sell, as well as a couple on the dyno. I'm meeting Agni this week and will find out if they are ready to ship more yet, and if they are willing to sell these first versions (I've got serial number 001 here;)). The price is on the jozztek website, though that too might be under review this week when they decide final production cost.

I hope to also have a shipping date for the big motors. Cedric has been boasting over 95% efficiency figures on his latest test samples of these..

Jozz

[Jozzer]

...only dropping to 86% when hit with 400A/30KW...

can`t belive this, my lynch dropped to <70% at 100V/380Amps, I got only 34HP at the rear wheel

That's not so surprising, you'll be seeing a 10%+ loss in the drive chain and tyre/bearing losses. My dyno measures at the shaft. I remember when we used to use a "proper" motorcycle dyno we'd see similar losses. In fact...see attachment.. 73HP with twin 95R Agni's at 84V and 800A limit.

[Jozzer]

Just found one of the highest power runs I got from twin Agni 95R's (a ttx02) on the Dynojet motorcycle dyno.. (off topic, since this is supposed to be about the 111RDR)

TTX02 peak power graph.jpg

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Jozz

[liveforphysics]

Just found one of the highest power runs I got from twin Agni 95R's (a ttx02) on the Dynojet motorcycle dyno.. (off topic, since this is supposed to be about the 111RDR)

TTX02 peak power graph.jpg

Jozz

Wow! That looks lime it would rip Jozz!

[Jozzer]

Aye, it was my daily commuter for a while, I miss it. Still love my Aprilia more though, much lighter and more fun on our cramped island roads. I've seen 48HP on that with a single motor. If it wasn't so cold out I'd bolt one of the 111RDR's into it right now:D


Edited to add, I wouldn't send the bike out on the race track setup with this much power, it undoubtably would smoke the motors. I'm not condoning the needless torture of Agni motors in any way

Jozz

[c_a]

What was the temperature after this dyno run?

Of course, they can do it, but only for a very limited time, with increasing heat losses increase a lot...?

[Jozzer]

It only takes a few seconds to get one run recorded, so temps were not that high after one or two short runs. This bike had an evaporative water cooler fitted too however, which greatly improved continuous power levels. I didn't really have accurate figures for how much back then, since it was very difficult to manage continous power levels on the Dynojet setup. With my bench dyno however, I've seen over 25KW continuously with a small jet of water vapour being blown onto the armature every few seconds.

Without optimum cooling though, motors like these do warm up pretty quick when abused, so always fit a temperature gauge or cutout before trying for more than Agni's specs. EVen then, you've got to watch out for brushes, more than a few seconds at greater than 400A will toast them, and even then the commutator needs to be in tip-top shape to put up with it.
Clean it regularly, especially after abuse, and run it back in again to lay a protective layer of carbon back down before trying again..


Jozz

[gor.]

Here are some graphs produced with my Dyno for interest. I've got some calibrating and experimenting to do before I will be able to produce "proffessional" looking graphs, but I know you'll appreciate the data.
...

contin 15kw copy.png

600A peak copy. png

Watercooled. png

...
I do have (and have used at the track) a proper temperature controlled high pressure pump and very fine misting jet that produces far better results, but have yet to find time to hook it all up to the dyno and tune it. When I do, I'll add results here..

hi, Jozzer
did you posted final graphs? is something wrong?

[Jozzer]

Hiya, No, nothing wrong, just got distracted with another motor we're working on! The 111rdr's have been run every day at up to 40KW (I need it to warm up my lab, 20 mins at full pelt heats the room for ages!), and has had no problems at all.
I need to do some work on the dyno's code in order to produce graphs according to Agni's needs, so it's not a simple one day effort..I'll get there soon!


Jozz

[jonescg]

Well hopefully by February you will have 5 Agni 95R motors to resurrect Some of them will do well to be recycled I think. And I look forward to a matched pair of 111Rs. Except this time I will get some decent crash protection built onto it.

[Anman]

Any news regarding the new Agni motors?

[poirot89]

Up,
The motor is out of stock so some people must ride with it...
What do they think?

[Jozzer]

They are close to production - it's taken them a while to get new parts made (endplates I think), but they have some on the way to the factory I hear. I should have some of the first batch as soon as they ship and will update this thread then..
There have been many changes to production this year that have caused these delays, but all of them have been for the better - which can only be good longterm!

Meanwhile, we have a few new 95R's in stock, several reconditioned, and also some 111 armatures that could be fitted to standard 95 endplates. This would gain the advantage of a higher running voltage (100v max instead of 84v), but not the advantages of the thicker magnets/bigger airgap (being higher efficiency at higher currents rather than lower). If anyone is interested in doing this, drop me a line and I'll price it up as an option..
We should have some commutator cleaning sticks in soon (we've got a couple left at the moment) - it's amazing how few people have these - they are essential especially for repeated high current "abuse".

We've got Chris's motors in hand, and one is good to go with only minor service work - if anyone wants a second hand motor with real Oz race history;)

Steve

[jonescg]

Steve, let us know when the thicker Agnis come in. Then when you have a matched pair, send 'em South. I really should just get my bike running again. Who knows, it might be a good bit of Australian racing history in 20 years time?

For the record - the two motors Jozz had reconditioned were not smoked - just had the brush housing damaged in a crash... two crashes actually These will spin as good as new, and I can't see why they wouldn't have the same kv values as before.

The other three motors however, were smoked and will need complete new armatures.

[gor.]

Hiya, No, nothing wrong, just got distracted with another motor we're working on! The 111rdr's have been run every day at up to 40KW (I need it to warm up my lab, 20 mins at full pelt heats the room for ages!), and has had no problems at all.
I need to do some work on the dyno's code in order to produce graphs according to Agni's needs, so it's not a simple one day effort..I'll get there soon!
Jozz

Jozzer, what about those graphs and test results you promised to post in november and december?

[Jozzer]

Gor, I'm still waiting for the final production version of the motor to do this - there have been further changes and the handbuilt ones I have have gone onto a race bike. Word is that the insulation material has been improved again..

Jozz

[Jozzer]

111 motors in stock at last
Limited numbers for now, but more coming soon..

Jozz

[poirot89]

I take one

[Jozzer]

http://www.jozztek.com/shop/agni-motors ... r-new.html