Is it still an ebike? Will you be harassed?

[SamTexas]

The "Generator Trailer" thread piqued my curiosity, from a legal point of view:

So instead of a battery, your PERFECTLY LEGAL ebike (20mph, 750W and less than 100lbs) use a ICE generator (Honda EU1000i for example). Do you think you'd harassed by the cops or by people when you get on bike paths? My guess is YES!

[REdiculous]

Yes and no....

If your generator is loud and you're running it while you're on a path with heavy traffic, yes. If your generator is quiet and you only run it when you're not within a few feet of pedestrians and other cyclists, no.

[SamTexas]

It's small tiny generator, it's either on or off. The rpm (and noise) varies based on the load but the engine is always on.

[REdiculous]

Then yes, I think you'll get harassed to some extent.

I'm looking to add a small genset to my trailer but I won't be running it in "sensitive" areas. My plan is to run it only when I'm on the streets, or when I'm stopped for a break.

As far as cops are concerned, I'm hauling my genset to a friend's house so he can borrow it. If I was caught riding with the generator running, I didn't know you weren't allowed to do that - I won't run it unless I'm stopped.

[SamTexas]

As far as cops are concerned, I'm hauling my genset to a friend's house so he can borrow it. If I was caught riding with the generator running, I didn't know you weren't allowed to do that - I won't run it unless I'm stopped.

That's the point of this thread. There's no law that prevents you from running a generator for your ebike. Your bicycle is running on electricity. So it's still an ebike. The USA law (and other countries too, to my knowledge) does not say that the electricity has to come from a battery. In fact, it says nothing about the energy source. Just 3 main things: 750W max electric motor, 20mph max, 100lbs max.

[dogman]

Stuff like that just depends on where you are riding. No doubt it would not fly in Fort Collins CO. Here in Las Cruces, I bet you would get no problems provided you weren't riding like a jackass. Part of that is New Mexico's very vague moped law. I bet most city cops don't give a damn, unless they see you doing the ol wrong side of the street trick or some other dumbshit bike rider manuver.

Not many have ridden the local bike paths with gas engine bikes, but a few that I do know of have not had anybody give a damn. In fact, we are mopeds, and shouldn't be on the bike path, gas or electric bike. But since they don't know it, I don't tell em. So here in Las Cruces, a generator powering a bike would be accepted just fine.

And once again, in the USA it's State, County, and City motor vehicle statutes that you need to worry about. The "US ebike law" is not a motor vehicle statute. It's a selling a bike law. What is legal to ride on public streets is up to the states.

One thing about laws, for the most part, they outline what is illegal. Anything not mentioned is then ok. If the power of the controller and motor is legal, then I can't see how they could say the way you charge the battery is illegal. But there could be places where air pollution standards would make running your generator at all illegal. There could be cities, perhaps in California, that have banned all small gas engines that lack a catylitic converter.

[granolaboy]

In British Columbia, that's no longer considered a "motor assisted cycle"...

4 A motor assisted cycle must not be equipped with a generator, alternator or similar device powered by a combustion engine.

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/26_151_2002

[SamTexas]

The "US ebike law" is not a motor vehicle statute. It's a selling a bike law. What is legal to ride on public streets is up to the states.

How many times have I heard of this? "It's a selling bike law". Yet I get no response whenever I asked for a link that specifically says this is only for selling ebikes. Please give me an answer this time.

[SamTexas]

In British Columbia, that's no longer considered a "motor assisted cycle"...

4 A motor assisted cycle must not be equipped with a generator, alternator or similar device powered by a combustion engine.

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/26_151_2002

Sounds like it's well defined in BC. Is it also as well defined in other provinces?

[granolaboy]

Sounds like it's well defined in BC. Is it also as well defined in other provinces?

I don't know about other provinces...Canada's definition of a "power assisted bicycle" has no mention of ICE generators. From Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations:

“power-assisted bicycle” means a vehicle that:

(a) has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,

(b) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,

(c) is capable of being propelled by muscular power,

(d) has one or more electric motors that have, singly or in combination, the following characteristics:

(i) it has a total continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of each motor, of 500 W or less,

(ii) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,

(iii) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and

(iv) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on level ground,

(e) bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and

(f) has one of the following safety features,

(i) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or

(ii) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3 km/h; (bicyclette assistée)

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1038/page-1.html#h-2

I bet you'd get hassled in Ontario. The cops hate ebikes in Ontario.

Also, doesn't having a gas-powered generator sorta defeat the point? Why not just get a 50cc scooter and call it a day?

[SamTexas]

Good. So with the exception of BC, Canada's law is pretty much the same as the USA, with the exception of 500W instead of 750W.

Also, doesn't having a gas-powered generator sorta defeat the point? Why not just get a 50cc scooter and call it a day?

Absolutely. It's crazy, illogical to carry a generator to power an ebike, in my opinion of course. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about legality. In the USA, it is perfectly legal. That's how I understand the law. The question is will you still be harassed?

A little off topic: Why not just a 50cc scooter? Because many people - mostly DUI - cannot get a license. No license is required for an ebike. And in some states (Texas for sure) insurance is also required.

[REdiculous]

A little off topic: Why not just a 50cc scooter? Because many people - mostly DUI - cannot get a license. No license is required for an ebike. And in some states (Texas for sure) insurance is also required.

There's at least one state where that doesn't work - in Oregon you have to be eligible for a license in order to pilot an ebike, and you're not eligible for a license while your license is suspended.

[SamTexas]

I don't quite understand the meaning of "eligible for a license". It sounds like you don't need a license, but you should be able to get one if you so desire. Right? If so, how can such law be enforced?

[REdiculous]

I'm sure a cop can see whether or not your license is suspended just by running your name. Otherwise, you're almost always eligible for a license if you're 16+. People w/ medical problems and such could be tricky - how do you know someone is ineligible for a license due to a non-obvious medical condition?

Sounds like it'd be pretty easy to enforce to me, except for the rare cases.

[SamTexas]

Sounds reasonable to me.

[dogman]

This link has about as good info as any I've seen. You can see the actual verbage of the law by clicking on the link in that text, the blue number at the end of the law's number.
http://www.omegastores.com/electric_bicycle_law.htm

The Ebike law passed by congress is a consumer product safety law. You will see a lot of distorted interperetations of this law by those that sell bikes. This consumer product safety law is part of why it's legal to sell an ebike in New York, but illegal to ride it except of private property. The consumer product law allows the retailers to call it a bicycle. While New York vehicle statutes say if you ride it, it's an illegal vehicle.

Only state and local vehicle statutes would apply for the actual use of any vehicle. Bike, horse , moped, car whatever. There are, of course lots and lots of federal laws about vehicles. They apply to safety, pollution, whatever. But not thier operation on the public roads. That operation is a matter of states rights. Governed by local law.

Lots of stuff like that. The volstead act was repealed, but you get to buy your booze when, how and where by local laws. Dry counties still exist.

[Lock]

Yamaha EF1000iS inverter generator
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-EF1000iS-4-Stroke-Generator-Compliant/dp/B002RWK9LY

Engine: Yamaha OHV, HP: 2.2, Rated Watts: 900, Rated Watts LP: N/A, Rated Watts NG: N/A, Surge Watts: 1,000, Surge Watts LP: N/A, Surge Watts NG: N/A, Run Time: 12 Hours at 1/4 Load, Receptacles (qty.): 1, Noise Level (dB): 57, Fuel Type: Gasoline, Fuel Capacity (gal.): .66, Start Type: Recoil, Dimensions L x W x H (in.): 17 23/32 x 9 13/32 x 14 29/32

27.6 pounds, CARB Compliant...

MEC Child Trailer Single
http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Cycling/Trailers/ChildTrailers/PRD~5018-875/mec-child-trailer-single.jsp

Carries up to 34kg (75lb.) with child and cargo combined.

Baby On Board sticker:
http://www.zazzle.ca/infant_on_board_sticker-217116769657207078

Seems like a useful range-extender for long-distance trips or to spots w/no charge facilities... If 57dB not quiet enough, add boom box

Lock

[SamTexas]

This Law defines electric bicycles only for the purpose of Consumer Product Safety and does not allow for their use on roads. It is a safety criteria that manufacturers should use in building electric bicycles, which helps protect manufacturers from the threat of lawsuits from within states that attempt to legislate more stringent safety requirements.

Thank you very much for that.


So for my state (Texas), the law is exactly the same as the federal law.

"Bicycles" and "Electric Bicycles" are legally defined in the Texas Transportation Code, Subtitle C. Rules of the Road, Chapter 541,"Definintions" as follows:

Sec. 541.201. Vehicles. In this subtitle:

(2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one of which is more than 14 inches in diameter. The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas legislature in 2001:
(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and
(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.

And the ebike can be operated wherever a bicycle can

The law reqarding the "operation" of "bicycles" and "electric bicycles" are in the Texas Transportation Code, Chapter 551., titled "Operation of Bicycles, Mopeds, and Play Vehicles" in Subchapter A, B, C, and D. as follows:
...

Ok, let's get back on topic. So for the states that have a formal, legal definition for electric bicycles, nothing is specified as far as the source of electricity is concerned. Nothing is preventing the use of a generator. Therefore an ebike is still an ebike whether it uses a battery, a generator or a combination of both. Question: Do you think you'd be harassed if you have a running generator on your ebike?
My answer: Yes. I don't think you can be fined, but you'd have to defend yourself. The burden of proof is on you.

Disclaimer: No, I do not promote the idea of running an ebike off a generator. In fact, I think it's a crazy idea, a step backward. But I can also see the reason why someone might want to do it, mainly because they cannot get a driver licence and have a need for long range.

[dogman]

A few other places have ebike law that pretty much mirrors the fed law. Possibly that was the real intent of the law, to encourage states to do that. Bush signed it into law, so no big suprise that Texas law is essentialy the same. Fortunately New Mexico polititians were too busy skimming the state fund or whatever to get around to it. 30 mph in NM baby. No watt limit.

And sure enough, the texas law just says "is designed to be propelled by an electric motor" Never says "electric battery powered motor"

So yup, I have to totally agree, it would be legal in Texas to carry a running generator on an ebike, and ride it on bike paths, etc.

RE carb, yes there would be generators that are California legal, most likely the honda EU 1000 is. And that one might even pass a strict noise ordinance too. But a 90 buck harbor freight two stroker likely would be bustable in some CA cities. If not for smoke, for noise.

[gogo]

You're always in a "tell it to the judge" situation. The officer can write the ticket and the judge can uphold, after which you have to expend time and $$$$ to contest.

[Alan B]

California has emissions rules (2 strokes have to be pretty clean and essentially smoke free), and the forest service has spark arrestor rules for generators. No noise rules aside from parks have curfew hours on generators.

[teklektik]

Beware the content of the linked document above (http://www.omegastores.com/electric_bicycle_law.htm) as it relates to state laws. The stated CT statute section is out of date as of 2011.

[teklektik]

So for my state (Texas), the law is exactly the same as the federal law.

(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;

IMHO: Two things: First this is distinctly different than the federal law in that it goes on (by specificity) to exclude power sources other than human. Second, the statute does not explicitly define the term 'propelled' so the law is (big surprise) open to interpretation based on the 'intent' as perceived by the court. As sure as 'common sense' says a Prius runs on gas, and a diesel locomotive (diesel generator and electric traction motors) runs on diesel, your ebike-with-generator is 'propelled' by gas.

C'mom folks - we all know this is just weaseling. The 'tell it to the judge' remark is on the money and keeping below the radar rather than confronting the intent of these statues is the way to go. If you want to do this Chevy Volt thing, be extra discrete, don't run it on bike paths, and for gosh sakes, put a generator kill switch on your handlebars....

[SamTexas]

Two things: First this is distinctly different than the federal law in that it goes on (by specificity) to exclude power sources other than human. Second, the statute does not explicitly define the term 'propelled' so the law is (big surprise) open to interpretation based on the 'intent' as perceived by the court.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Care to elaborate? Using layman terms if possible.

[teklektik]

Two things: First this is distinctly different than the federal law in that it goes on (by specificity) to exclude power sources other than human. Second, the statute does not explicitly define the term 'propelled' so the law is (big surprise) open to interpretation based on the 'intent' as perceived by the court.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Care to elaborate? Using layman terms if possible.

The Texas version adds the words and concept not present in the Federal version

(A) ...exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;

and in doing so calls out the specific exclusion of allowing (only) 'human' power - no other types. As for not defining 'propelled', it just doesn't. Here I think one interpretation of 'propelled' is the kind of motor connected to the shaft and another interpretation is the actual source of power.

In the Prius and locomotive examples, I was trying, somewhat unsuccessfully, to show that in one sense, the electric motor is just a part of the drive mechanism and the actual source of power propelling the vehicle is non-electric. I think this is a layman's non-technical view that the court might well embrace - you put in gas and *that* makes it go.

My poorly made point was that there may be ambiguity in that statute and that in the presence of ambiguity, the court is likely to go with an interpretation that fulfills the court's view of the intent of the law - which in this case I think we all know was to disallow gas engines. In the end, this isn't a high profile Clarence Darrow moment worthy of deep judicial consideration - it's traffic court with little if any review and where (in my experience) the ADA or judge may occasionally choose to be slightly capricious because they can (often to the benefit of the accused).