Motorino XPn 2011 E-Scooter

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.

Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:05 am

motorino magnet wrote:Hi from Ontario Canada ! Great forum ! Been looking at lot and this one is the best !

I agree this is a great forum with a lot of very knowledgeable people who've been doing the E-vehicle thing for a while.

Grateful for some answers to some noob questions.Please,just want to make my moto better,longer and a little faster to make it safer.

I'm a noob but I can try to answer some of your questions to the best of my very limited knowledge.

Can I buy one of these 60 volt 20ah-maybe another 10 ah too- and just drop it into my motorino and drive with more distance , more speed?
(stock sla 48 volt 20 + 14 ah XPN)

You can get a 60V 30AH from Ping if you want long range and more power, but you will have to upgrade your controller to take 60V, or change the caps in your existing controller to 100V ones.

Can they lay on there side under the seat?

You mean the compartment under the seat? I would leave that for storage. You can put the Lithium battery where the 20AH SLAs are presently. Of course you have to disassemble the whole rear end of the scooter to get to those SLAs. Well worth the effort to shed almost 70 pounds off your scooter, get more torque, more range and more speed and regain the space under the seat for storage.

Can you parralell two packs of different ah ?

Apparently it can be done with SLAs as we have a 20AH paralleled with a 14AH. I wouldn't do it with a lithium battery, no need to really as you can get a 30AH which will give you almost three times the range you have with your SLAs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60V-20AH-LiFePO ... 3a6cb24e6c

I don't know about this ebay battery there, maybe someone can chime in about it but I'd go with Ping over this.

Should I buy a new controller ? Which one ?

If you go 60V yes, you can get a Lyen controller, http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16998, or a Kelly one http://kellycontroller.com/general-brushless-motor-speed-controller.php can't help you on which one to get though. Some people here had great succes with a cheap Hua Tong generic controller. Some work is needed, warning lots and lots of reading http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29469&hilit=72V+hua+tong


How difficult will hookup and installation be?

It all depends on your capabilities and the tools you have.

Is a cycle analist hard to hook up and which one should i buy?

I don't know about this one but I would love to find out also. A popular choice seems to be the CA from ebikes.ca. http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_accessories.php

Learned a lot from your forum.Thankyou

where do we donate to the forum?

Don't know about that one.

ps-will the regen affect the new battery?

It should put some voltage back in the battery just like it did with the SLAs.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:22 pm

I have some 6 gauge welding wire, if I replaced all the wires on the SLA cells and the ones going from the battery to the controller, would there be a noticeable difference in the performance? These 6 gauge battery wires coupled with the 10 gauge phase wires I just did recently? The two power wires (red and black) sticking out of the controller, would I have to change those to a bigger gauge also? Or would it be a waste of time. As I said before, I plan on upgrading to LiFePO early Spring. Thanks.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:09 pm

Most of your sag is from the battery itself. You can guestimate your loss in the cable by how warm it gets?
There is no donation mechanism that I am aware of at present, but you can always buy from ebike.ca, which will provide a backdoor way.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:19 am

I'll just change the wires going from the battery to the controller then and won't bother with the wires connecting the cells to each other. That way, the wiring will be done to accept the lithium battery in the spring. But I'm still wondering if I should change the wires going into the controller, the two wires connecting to the - and + of the battery. I would have 6 gauge wires coming from the - and + of the battery connecting to two 12 gauge wires going into the controller. It doesn't seem right to me.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:23 am

mistercrash wrote:I'll just change the wires going from the battery to the controller then and won't bother with the wires connecting the cells to each other. That way, the wiring will be done to accept the lithium battery in the spring. But I'm still wondering if I should change the wires going into the controller, the two wires connecting to the - and + of the battery. I would have 6 gauge wires coming from the - and + of the battery connecting to two 12 gauge wires going into the controller. It doesn't seem right to me.

How many amps are you pulling? I run enough amps to do burnouts and wheelies though 10 gauge and some times 12 gauge! I have 8 gauge on some of my very hi power builds but 6 gauge is for so serious power!
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
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And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
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Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:03 pm

I know 6 Gauge is overkill but I have the wires here, I've had them for a while and thought why not use them. But you make me think that I may have enough of the HobbyKing 10 gauge silicon wire left to just do the wires from the battery to the controller. I knew I didn't have enough of those to do the whole wiring including from cell to cell so that's why I kept it out of my thoughts. It would be a lot easier to work with the HK wires compared to those massive welding wires. Thanks.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:05 am

I was passing the time on the computer yesterday and came up with this lipo battery pack that could be used on my scooter. This is just out of curiosity and just to think of another option besides the Cellman battery I plan to get in the spring.

This is done with Turnigy 2S 5800 mah 25C lipos. 24 of them for 44.4V 23.2 Ah. Once done the whole pack would probably weigh around 25 to 27 pounds depending on what I would use for a box. Why 2S when I see a lot of people going with 4, 5 or 6S or even more. Well from my experience, I found that for me it is so much easier to work, repair or rebuild a 2S lipo then a 4 or more cell lipo.
I already have one Cellpro 10S charger and it is awesome and very easy to use and safe on lipos. They are sold pretty cheap on HobbyKing so I could get two more for $262 shipped. Not including custom fees that might be added. The battery pack is inaccessible on my scooter and I need to disassemble most of the rear body panels to get to it so the plan would be to have only the balance tabs stick out through the plastic of the under seat compartment. The tabs would be protected from dirt, dust and water and I could balance charge every time easily. I don't need to fast charge as I always do it at night.
The total price of the 24 lipos needed would be $776 shipped. Not including custom fees that might be added. So a total of $1038 shipped for lipos and chargers. Not including custom fees that might be added.

So here's my concerns about this, again just out of curiosity. It seems a bit pricey but it is the most powerful battery I could get and there are two very good chargers in the mix. But there is time and effort involved here, and I have to make some kind of box or enclosure to house all these lipos securely. My biggest concern is that I plug in the scooter in the evening to recharge to have a cheaper rate on the electricity. It drops to half the cost after 7 pm. I'm nervous to keep such a large number of lipos unattended while being recharged over night. I'm not one to believe you have to sit and stare at lipos for the whole charge cycle but the way my scooter is used, I come back from work, park in the garage, plug it on the charger and forget about it until the next day. Not something I want to do with lipos.

Because of that I don't think lipos are for me. But still, if I had an extra thousand dollars to spare, it would be a fun project. Just thinking out loud here. Thanks for reading.
Last edited by mistercrash on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:53 am

Are those chargers totaly isolated out puts???
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:37 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by that arlo, sorry. Do you mean if the charger can separately charge two packs at once? If that is what you mean then yes but it will treat two packs as if they are in series. Like connecting a 3S pack on channel 1 and a 5S pack on channel 2, it will read them as being one 8S pack.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:50 pm

mistercrash wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by that arlo, sorry. Do you mean if the charger can separately charge two packs at once? If that is what you mean then yes but it will treat two packs as if they are in series. Like connecting a 3S pack on channel 1 and a 5S pack on channel 2, it will read them as being one 8S pack.

No it can sepratly charge 2 packs but when you hook the two packs in series and you are trying to charge them sepratly then you have big problems. Are you going to dissasemble the pacs?
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:56 pm

I think I might see what you're getting at. In my drawing, I have 6 clusters. Each cluster has 4 2S packs in parallel. then the 6 clusters are in series and that's where the mistake is right? In order to balance charge the 6 clusters I would have to disconnect the series connections first and reconnect only once the recharge process is completed. So I would have to have the six balance tabs poke through the under seat compartment AND also the 5 series connections so that I can disconnect the series. And then have a way of reconnecting the series in the right order. I think I should delete this drawing I posted.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:45 pm

I actualy have 31 isolated 4-5v power supplies to charge at the Cell level so I can set them all to 4.2v and ballance charge safely evey time. I just need to build it.
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:54 pm

each cell would have it's own little charger? That's cool. Here's a new drawing with 6mm bullet connectors to unplug the series connections before charging by the balance tabs. Now that would work. Not the fastest way to charge but I can go up to 4 amps on the balance tabs. A couple pig tails on the + and - leads of the pack with bullets at the end and I could balance charge the 6 clusters at once at 10 amps.

Image
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby motorino magnet » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:13 am

Hi Mr Crash

I'm watching you cause I got the same xpn-keep up the good work.Yo got some good computer drawing skills.

Your lipo picture is really pretty-but-seems like a lot of wiring and time and hassle-not to mention the worry while charging in the garage while you relax in front of the TV or go shopping with the wifey and the kids.I think my insurance agent would stop being my friend If I brought those IED's into my garage.As a matter of fact I remember reading about a fight a dude had because his RC sailboat burned up his million dollar yacht-no kidding.

Don't you think that a 60 or 72 volt life4po is the way to go since they are so cheap and safe and stupid?I think TS 40-60 ah are only 50 bucks a peice no



I sent mi xPN in to a fella here to do some major mods like delta and 60 volt and a CA.

Unfortunately I think it blew something and we are waiting for a new controller which should be in this week.

I will let you know how it goes and if you are around Niagara Falls you can come and see it end take her for a spin.

I am also thinking of building one of these Greyborgs because they are almost plug and play and then I can more legally drive on the paths around my place.I got popped for dui and insurance will cost me about 5-7 grand a year for the next two years till it comes off my record .

So spending 5 gs on a greyborg makes great monetary and FUN sense.

Might do a stealth road bike too just for the hell of it cause the ebike grin is more addictive than good dope!

Keep in touch-any other motorino dudes on the board here too?They are good quality road cruisers for getting round town on a good day.

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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:55 am

Yep lipos are what they are, powerful and light and relatively cheap compared to other alternatives but they have to be taken care off constantly. Not a plug and play thing at all. That's why I said I played around making this drawing but it is not a viable solution for a scooter like the XPn where the battery is not easily accessible, and I don't have the time to spend pampering the lipos. I'm staying at 48V, don't feel like always looking over my shoulder to see if a police cruiser is following me while I'm riding at 60+ km/h. If I get caught doing 40 to 45 then maybe I can just explain that I was going downhill or I had the wind at my back. :lol: Speed is not my goal for this daily commuter, torque, ease of use, reliability and peace of mind is what's important for me. Two 52V 11.5 ah bricks from Cellman with the 80 amp BMS should be more than plenty for my needs. This should be night and day compared to the 48V 34Ah SLAs I have now. I'll get good enough speed, good torque to go uphill and good range. I also want to get a Lyen controller.

Lipos will go on an open frame project I might do someday. But I'm liking the recumbents a lot, might do that too. It all depends on the money.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:09 pm

mistercrash wrote: I'm staying at 48V, don't feel like always looking over my shoulder to see if a police cruiser is following me while I'm riding at 60+ km/h. If I get caught doing 40 to 45 then maybe I can just explain that I was going downhill or I had the wind at my back. :lol: Speed is not my goal for this daily commuter, torque, ease of use, reliability and peace of mind is what's important for me. Two 52V 11.5 ah bricks from Cellman with the 80 amp BMS should be more than plenty for my needs. This should be night and day compared to the 48V 34Ah SLAs I have now.


The guys I know who have converted their scoots from SLA claim 50% capacity of LiFePO4 will give better performance with the same range. If that is true your range should increase as will your power on the hills.
Last summer, I found myself doing almost 80kmph in a 50km zone heading at a speed gun sitting in a 30km school zone. I've kept the hi/lo switch in low most of the time, since then. They seem to ignore a bike looking thing, but stare at a scooter. Maybe it is just my paranoia?
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Fast Eddie » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:33 pm

I've got a XPh with 34Ahr sla's as purchased. All I've done so far is install a CA and upgrade some of the wiring to 10ga and waterproof. I'm going to happily watch prices come down on lifepo4 and then upgrade when the sla's are nearer to the end of their life, hopefully this summer. Like other posters I'm also plotting out the best way for me to build up a stealth bike to ride here in Toronto.

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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:13 pm

What is the reason for the price of LiFePO4 batteries to go down? It must be something I'm not aware of, can you share your knowledge? I don,t want to buy batteries for $1000 and see them for sale at $600 a couple months later.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:19 pm

mistercrash wrote:What is the reason for the price of LiFePO4 batteries to go down? It must be something I'm not aware of, can you share your knowledge? I don,t want to buy batteries for $1000 and see them for sale at $600 a couple months later.


I don't think it will happen. Material price is going up. Labour price is going up. Transportation price is going up. NA $$$ are being printed by the trillion. How will batteries go DOWN :?: :mrgreen:
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:36 pm

Gordo wrote:
mistercrash wrote:What is the reason for the price of LiFePO4 batteries to go down? It must be something I'm not aware of, can you share your knowledge? I don,t want to buy batteries for $1000 and see them for sale at $600 a couple months later.


I don't think it will happen. Material price is going up. Labour price is going up. Transportation price is going up. NA $$$ are being printed by the trillion. How will batteries go DOWN :?: :mrgreen:

Some batteries are going down. But their the old ones you dont want anymore. Every year batteries get better for the same price or the old ones get cheeper. The lipo I used for my bmx was ~$630 When I build it and now I can build a new pac with the same specs for ~330. That took about 1.5 years for the price to drop that much. Right now batteries are advancing like computers were in the 90's and look at the quality of computers vs the price from the 90's to now.
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:03 am

That's what I thought also, I don't think LiFePO4 will come down in price from now 'till summer. Just like the old technology of batteries are going down in price, the price we see now for Lithium batts will go down when a new and improved, or better yet, a revolutionary technology comes to market. But for now, all we hear about anything new coming our way is just research and prototype stuff that often amount to nothing. I'm still waiting to put a frikkin' EESU in my scooter :lol:
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Fast Eddie » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:22 pm

Gordo wrote:
mistercrash wrote:What is the reason for the price of LiFePO4 batteries to go down? It must be something I'm not aware of, can you share your knowledge? I don,t want to buy batteries for $1000 and see them for sale at $600 a couple months later.


I don't think it will happen. Material price is going up. Labour price is going up. Transportation price is going up. NA $$$ are being printed by the trillion. How will batteries go DOWN :?: :mrgreen:


Hey sorry, Mrcrash, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I have no information on pricing for LiFepo4 or any other battery type for that matter. I’m a bit frustrated when it comes to trying to compare components then adding in shipping and the potential for customs duty charges and brokerage.
I’ve been following prices for completed packs as well as components for about a year only and one thing I have noticed it that here in Toronto the price for bikes selling with Li as an option have dropped quite a bit (Emmo as an example). Other dealers are advertising Li ‘upgrade packs’ for example Motorino, but they haven’t answered questions regarding chemistry, bms and charger availability. Local (re)sellers of complete packs are coming on-line but exact chemistry and cell type are not clear and the same questions are unclear ( I don’t think they have any yet and are just testing market interest).
I agree with Arlo1 in that the reduced prices are on the older types, and I believe and sellers are not quoting specs for them correctly, just letting buyers hope that they are getting the latest and greatest.
Sorry again for the stress,
Doug
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby motorino magnet » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:44 pm

I’m a bit frustrated when it comes to trying to compare components then adding in shipping and the potential for customs duty charges and brokerage.
I’ve been following prices for completed packs as well as components for about a year only and one thing I have noticed it that here in Toronto the price for bikes selling with Li as an option have dropped quite a bit (Emmo as an example). Other dealers are advertising Li ‘upgrade packs’ for example Motorino, but they haven’t answered questions regarding chemistry, bms and charger availability. Local (re)sellers of complete packs are coming on-line but exact chemistry and cell type are not clear and the same questions are unclear ( I don’t think they have any yet and are just testing market interest).
I agree with Arlo1 in that the reduced prices are on the older types, and I believe and sellers are not quoting specs for them correctly, just letting buyers hope that they are getting the latest and greatest.
Sorry again for the stress,
Doug

Hey Doug-never be sorry for thinking with some cohibas and some smarts-im thinking and smoking and im buying too
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby motorino magnet » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:51 pm

PS-all you motoring owners like us-???

Web got to keep thuds thread going up to date cause we got and we drive Motorinos ?-Yeah baby !
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:15 pm

No worries here and no need to apologize Doug. And I feel your frustration about shipping cost to Canada and those darn custom fees :x

Ray
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