Electric vehicles, poor performance, high cost, vaporware

[zombiess]

It just plain radiculous to compare energy densities just like that.
Exactely ,because ICombustion waste 70-80%of energy fed to it.
You must look at all picture.
Also maintainance costs, environmental costs.
Coming to electric vehicles forum like Endless Sphere and claim evehicle is vaporware is quite brave and I must say provocative.
It is like saying all what people ride here is vaporware.
So your title of your thread is NONSENSE by itself.
Unless, you don't understand what "vaporware" means.
Evehicles are for real and in everyday use.
Nissan Leaf is excellent commuter in the city, no vaporware.
Check in Webster dictionary what "vaporware" means.
I mean coming to evehicle forum with thread like that??
If you do not accept evehicles do not come to forums like that and post this.

Evidently you totally misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying electric vehicles are vaporware, I'm saying a lot of promises about electric vehicles, companies that have these awesome breakthroughs that get written about but never go anywhere are vaporware. No need to have such a nasty overtone to your post, you sound a lot like a crazy zealot.

Relax man. When I roll a bike it's an ebike, just wish I had others to ride with.

As for styling, I'm thankful that Nissan made the Leaf look pretty normal. I'm just sick of seeing the complete lack of good styling on cars. While it may be a subjective topic I believe most people agree that economy cars look pretty goofy, same goes with a lot of the electric stuff. If I was to buy a hybrid right now I'd buy an old Honda Insight which looks a little funky but is function over form and is the best mass produced gas/electric hybrid to date.

What I'd really like to see is something like a 1.5L-2.0L turbo diesel gas electric hybrid. Electric to get you going and around at lower speeds and turbo diesel making 150HP to make it fun to drive all in a sub 3000lb package. 100+ MPG should be a non issue.

[auraslip]

The technologies are in no ways holding back electric vehicles. I'd say the american consumer is, but the reality is americans do and believe what the marketers tell them. If suddenly a major auto maker threw their weight behind a dirt simple $10,000 electric vehicle with a 50 mile range for house wives and high schoolers, they'd sell like hot cakes. Especially if they played up the fact that it in five years it'll be easy to upgrade the range to 100 miles, and that the cost of maintenance is only the cost of brake pads, bearings, and lubrication.

But no company wants to sell a car that'll last for fifty years and is easily upgradable. I don't expect them to do it until the market FORCES them to do it. So then the real issue with EVs is making it easy as possible for little companies to enter the game. And with regulations and the size of their competitors it'd be nigh impossible for a car company to do that.... So if you want to go see how capitalism is supposed to work, search alibaba for "electric vehicles" and see how many makes and models are available.

[REdiculous]

The technologies are in no ways holding back electric vehicles. I'd say the american consumer is, but the reality is americans do and believe what the marketers tell them. If suddenly a major auto maker threw their weight behind a dirt simple $10,000 electric vehicle with a 50 mile range for house wives and high schoolers, they'd sell like hot cakes.

If this imaginary car matches the Leaf's efficiency then you'd need a 22kwh battery (17.5kwh usable) in order to make it 50 miles.

I'm not even gonna look it up; your car's battery would weigh near 500lbs and cost like $10,000.

Even with a 50% discount, a 22kwh pack would take half the budget...and if $10,000 is the MSRP it's even more impossible.

Especially if they played up the fact that it in five years it'll be easy to upgrade the range to 100 miles

It'll be a fact. In 5 years. Watch.

[veloman]

I have given up on electric cars, period. It's not going to happen, not on the large scale within the next 10 years, at least. We've made paltry progress since the first generation Prius, for many different reasons.

American's want EVERYTHING. They do not want compromise. They do not place much value on being 'green'. They are use to long range, high power, size, ..... everything. It won't change unless gas goes above $8/gal or something. I don't see that happening either. It would of by now.

Ebikes are it for the electric world. Though they will still not be mainstream in the US due to the culture and the wants listed above. We might have 4% cyclist commuters and 3% ebike commuters in 10 years, in most US cities. Still will have 70+% single occupant car commuters.

Batteries will get better, but not fast enough or cheap enough.

20 years from now we will just have more efficient ICE cars. That's it. Maybe we'll be lucky enough to have a 50mpg sedan. ICE is getting a lot cleaner than it use to be. A hot shot in a new Range Rover flooring it in front of me - doesn't really smell much compared to a late 80s pickup stinking the entire road up going easy.

I predict we won't see any significant changes in the transportation world in 10-20 years.

50-70 years...... then things may be really changing, but that's impossible to tell. Automobiles will be a marvel of engineering (they already are for the most part). We will have 25lb ebikes with 5kw and 100 mile range, and that will be damn fun.

[TylerDurden]

The American public will not change much. The cars will.

PHEVs will gradually increase their battery-only range until the fuel-tank is just for long trips.

How fast/slow the change occurs depends on the pain-at-the-pump. Commuters in the '70's bought the Citicar, which was truly horrible; but deemed better than tolerating a fisting by OPEC's embargo.

Today, the choices of EVs/HEVs are a bit better.

2012TDI_Hybrid.png (97.56 KiB) Viewed 399 times

P.S. Bob Beaumont, 1932-2011

[Lessss]

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/21/142365346/timeline-the-100-year-history-of-the-electric-car

[dogman]

A 50 mile range( at 60 mph) bare bones electric car for $10,000? I'd jump on that! You can't even get a bare bones gas car legal to sell in the USA for that now. Maybe a motorcycle class vehicle.

Right now, it would cost more like 20 thou or more. Hell, price a brand new piece o crap focus right now. Not even close to 10 thou.

It's going to take a huge increase in the price of gas to make a 50 mile battery look affordable. By that I mean over ten bucks a gallon. We want our comfortable ride, and we aren't giving it up yet. I know plenty of folks with bigger car payments combined than the familys house payment.

[REdiculous]

A 50 mile range( at 60 mph) bare bones electric car for $10,000? I'd jump on that! You can't even get a bare bones gas car legal to sell in the USA for that now. Maybe a motorcycle class vehicle.

Right now, it would cost more like 20 thou or more. Hell, price a brand new piece o crap focus right now. Not even close to 10 thou.

Check out the MSRP on the Nissan Versa and compare to the Nissan Leaf.

[Wick]

As an electro-engineer at Volvo, I have to make a contribution to the discussion.



It doesnt look goofy, you commute to work using electricity only, you go to grandma 400 km away for (1,9 l / 100 km), and if you have to you can accelerate from a low-end porche. (0-100 kmh in 6,9 sek).

This is not the future, but it´s a very good way of teaching the public how the future should look like.

Again, thanx for a great forum helping me build an ebike.

[Dlogic]

I´ve built myself 2 ebikes so far. The third one was bought ready made. The truth is as follows:

1. At first my lipo packs only lasted about one year and cost me about 470$ each.
2. The mid drive system was noisy and the planetary gears wore out after 17430 Km. Not to mention the 4 chains and sprockets. The 7 busted freewheels and,and, and.....

3. BUT, hey, look, a hubmotor. Wow. Well, crapy bearings, hall connectors that are not really waterproof leading to corossion on the contacts. Phase wires with cheap insulation and hall sensors that constantley fail.

4. Controllers that are not waterproof either and fail the first time it rained.

--------------------

Thousands of $$$$ spent. An idealist though, in constant persuit of perfection, all the above issues have been sorted out. No more stupid prototypes that require an arsenal of tools to be carried along whenever riding. The fright of breaking down was with me all the time. Well, not any more. As long as there´s a solution, there´s no real problem. I´m persistent, have spent uncounted hours in my toolshop. The benifits:

1. A ride in almost total silence.
2. The thrill of speed and power without burning gas.
3. No vibrations.
4. The feeling of floating around town.
5. Commuting to work and back passing all those cars stuck in traffic.
6. The reliability of this new technology.

[veloman]

It took me about 5 different designs of building my own electric bike to realize that a hub motor was clearly the best choice. My Mac geared hub and Infineon 12fet controller from cellman, and lifepo4 battery from Hyena have worked flawlessly since the summer, 1700 miles so far. The only issue I had was leaving my bike in the rain, and the unprotected power connecter got water in it, so that stopped the bike from working. The next day after drying out, it was back to normal.

I can't explain well enough how much I enjoy the smooth, nearly silent power. I wish I had this bike 15 years ago when I was 11.

ICE engines aren't all that great always. My gf's gas mower won't start and it's not worth the time or money to get it repaired. I told her to look into an electric corded mower, and I'll gladly cut her lawn. Plug it in and GO.

I still stand behind preferring a pure gasoline car over a hybrid or electric. 100 years of development and the infrastructure is an advantage. Of course I rarely drive my car, so it's only used for when it really makes sense. My lifestyle would SUCK if I didn't have my ebike.

[dnmun]

way cool wick, i think the middle of the road solution is gonna be around 1 liter diesel and 10kWh pack in a 2000 kilo carbon fiber/aluminum body hybrid.

velo, my man, the lawn mowers all die when the gas in the carb sits over the winter and clogs the small jet inside the fuel bowl.

unscrew the bolt that holds the fuel bowl on and you will find the little holes have something like crystallized jello in the holes for fuel flow. clean it out and put it back together and it should start first pull.

ford announced that they will have a plug in hybrid version of the ford focus by the end of 2012. plug in hybrids will be the new normal over the next few decades.

i am convinced that the solution is gonna be publicly available, but privately owned charging spots, that will become ubiquitous as more and more people adopt plug in hybrids. we need tax incentives to get people to create charging spots in their driveway and make it available to the public and work out the details of billing through some google apps which will help the driver find a charging spot close to their destination.

this is where it is most important that guvment not block the buildout of charging spots by layering them with regulations, and union fostered over built regulations will make privately owned charge spots unaffordable for the homeowner to build.

[veloman]

Good stuff dnmum.

I live right next to a busy hipster coffee shop, bakery, popular restaurants, on a residential street. People park in front of our house everyday. In the future, setting up a covered bike parking with charging outlets on the front lawn, and higher voltage charging for the car spaces on the street would be an income.

I think businesses would be the first to take the step forward though. It'd be incredibly easy to add electrical outlets at bike racks. Bring your own charger and plug in. Whole Foods Market has a EV charging station, and it's free to use once you buy the mychargepoint card. Though I think I could just plug into the wall outlet next to the bike racks. Either way it's free charging since you are their customer. No need to charge a fee if it's a business, it helps attract the EV users, gives incentive to chose them.

[E-racer]

I feel the reason electric motorbikes (e-bike to light motorcycles) have poor performance/price ratio's is due to how they are being engineered. CNC'd billet pieces and off the shelf motors, controllers, chargers, telemetry, and components will never work for a real production bike. Through our tinkering we know that 20+kw motor/controller combo's are 100% possible. We also know that the battery technology/price ratio is there i.e HK batteries. For a true electric motorbike company to emerge its going to take a full R&D of every component. Elegant engineering could produce a viable 20kw 160lb dual sport bike for $5000 sale price. This is simply impossible when running a perm or agni motor, paired with a off the shelf controller. You can't sell someone half the bike for the same price as the gassers.

I truly believe the steps Tesla has taken in designing the Model S will show the world what electric vehicle development is all about. What the mass majority of people don't understand is that we don't all necessarily want our cars/bikes to run off batteries. We ultimately want our cars/bikes to run off anything that's more sustainable and stable in price. Electric cars segway us to these sustainable technologies by allowing a nuclear, wind, hydro, solar, or geotherm system to fill our tanks

[miro13car]

del

[pdf]

As an electro-engineer at Volvo, I have to make a contribution to the discussion.

It doesnt look goofy, you commute to work using electricity only, you go to grandma 400 km away for (1,9 l / 100 km), and if you have to you can accelerate from a low-end porche. (0-100 kmh in 6,9 sek).

This is not the future, but it´s a very good way of teaching the public how the future should look like.

Again, thanx for a great forum helping me build an ebike.

Wick: I am with you here. I have worked on a couple of projects that deal with public perception of LEVs. The other problems is that, if they have 4 wheels, they are in a special class of vehicle, like a low-speed vehicle. In my opinion, putting LSVs on the road is much more problematic than ebikes and they have been shown to be much much less safe in a collision than a car, even a very small car, like a SmartCar.

Plug in hybrids will be, at a minimum, a gap-filler for the foresee-able future. Commute on batteries only, but petroleum backup for trips over, say, 20 miles. The only barrier right now is cost, and it is very substantial. Work on "your people" to get that down! Personally, I hope work continues on complete electrification of personal transportation (and less energy being devoted to it through conservation, smart choices, and urban/suburban planning), but plug-in hybrids are a good solution that is pretty much ready to go right now and people don't have to do much differently, except remember to plug it in.

[pdf]

This is perhaps a game-changer.

Pros: Cheap €6,500 euro for the entry level model, carries two people, apparently handles well, ideally sized for the urban environment, has some weather protection (much better than jupes), 80 kph speed is perfect for urban travel and holds some luggage. Most importantly of all it goes on sale this December.

Cons: Needs proper doors. Range is somewhat limited at 100 kilometres. The biggest downside is that you are renting the batteries at €45 to €50 per month.

I have seen one already and I think they will be highly popular but the renting issue and doors that leave the top of your body exposed to the elements is not good.

The model in the video and the version I saw doesn't/didn't have the half-doors.

In the US, it would not be legal, I am pretty sure. It would be classified as a medium speed vehicle and would be speed limited to 35 mph. This might depend on where you live, though most state laws are similar in this respect. Gas is still too cheap for there to be much motivation to change this. Now, if you take off one of the rear wheels and make it go faster, you have an electric motorcycle, which is legal. But you'd have to wear a helmet, which is a non-starter for many people.

Don't get me wrong, I love this stuff. But it is incredibly frustrating when you get all hyped up over it and then find out it can't be done in the US for legal reasons. In the video, he alludes to a class of vehicles called "quadricycles" that apparently allow this. We don't have the equivalent in the States.

[Arlo1]

I just did a quick number crunch and I have burnt ~$20100 worth of gasoline in my car since I bought it new!!!! The car cost me $30000 I have 195000km on it gas has been about 1-1.10 a litre since I bought it and its still going!! The oil companys midas well give them to people so we buy their gas!

[REdiculous]

I got my truck used for about $14k. I've had it for about 6 years and have only put about 44k miles on it. If I figure 25mpg and $3/gal average, that's about $5200 on fuel. Figure 3 oil changes per year at a shop, or about $500-700. If my insurance was $65/mo average that would work out to $4600 so far.

I guess that shows me that my truck has cost me about $4k/yr so far. And the longer it lasts without a major breakdown, the better that number should be.

[Lessss]

6 months cost of - - -

bus(1300), taxi(2600),car(2650) vs ebike at under 375

ebike
new one every 3 years 3000, new expensive lithium battery every 2years 2000, charging costs100 per year
= 700 for six months

realistic cost 2000 for new bike every 5 years, 2 lithium batteries over 10 yrs 2500, 10 years of charging 1000= 750/yr
=375 for 6months

Bus
$2.50 per trip x2 a day x5
25 a week x 26weeks
=$1300

Taxi
$7-$12 a trip call it $10 x2x5
100x26
=2600

Car
Car, gas, oil, spark plugs, filters, insurance, inspection etc
$15000 purchase 10 yr life, 50g/w, maint say 100/yr, ins 1000, insp 100
1500+2600+100+1000+100=yearly cost $5300 /2
= 2650 for half a year

[Tommy L]

Bus
$2.50 per trip x2 a day x5
25 a week x 26weeks
=$1300

Taxi
$7-$12 a trip call it $10 x2x5
100x26
=2600

Car
Car, gas, oil, spark plugs, filters, insurance, inspection etc
$15000 purchase 10 yr life, 50g/w, maint say 100/yr, ins 1000, insp 100
1500+2600+100+1000+100=yearly cost $5300 /2
= 2650 for half a year

Lessssssssssss! Great break down!

It would seem that we are taught how to manage expenses to live the dream.
Meow, if we actually managed expenses, we could live the dream Yes, I said Meow! \\m//

[oatnet]

Increase the speed limit on NEV's to 45mph so they were actually practical to use around town, and that segment would explode.

-JD

[The Mighty Volt]

Agreed, 100% with this thread. Just sitting here working out how much it would cost to convert a car to electric....the price of the batteries is shocking. It's gotten so bad I am trying to combine LEAD ACID with Deadways just to bring the price down. Not worth it. I won't be spending any money, I am going to sell my existing EV's and work hard at learning the ins-and-outs of building an electric car in the interim. I'll dedicate my time to scrounging copper, aluminium plate, learning to weld, learning to solder up electric circuits for diagnostics and displays. Not worth it right now spending any more money.

[Hillhater]

If you have to run a car, then the best option at the moment ( in Australia at least !) is a LPG gas "dual fuel" conversion using the latest DI LPG systems.
This gives you the clean(er) and economical LPG fuel , with the option of regular petrol for emergencies and extra long range capability.
LPG is currently under half the cost of petrol and with the latest cconversions you get similar mileage and performance to petrol.

[dkw12002]

True dat. Moreover, those ranges for electric vehicles are very optimistic as we e-bikers know. If the seller says you can go 20 miles on a battery...better count on 10 and hope for 12 and that's fully using the battery up which you are not supposed to do. Yes, range is still a HUGE problem. We are not yet there with full electric cars unless it is a second car. I mean who can have a car that only goes 76 miles if you are lucky (I would count on 50 miles max)? Only someone who never takes trips, or has a second gas car. Problem is, I don't need two cars, so I don't own a full-electric car right now. I do own a Prius though and get 45 mpg. One great means of transportation often overlooked in the US is a 50cc or 100cc scooter. Those climb any hills, there is no pedaling (lol) and they get 100 mpg. When you go shopping there is built-in storage under the seat usually or a tail storage box, or you can add a box with bungie cords and you can park right up front at the store. It's actually more practical as a means of transportation than an ebike for many people. Not as clean for sure. You can buy a 94 cc Aprilia Scarabeo for under $2,000 for example. It goes about 50 mph. An ebike that goes that fast would be something like the Zero or the Stealth Bomber at $10,000, making those fast and powerful electric motorcycles really a novelty and not practical. Electricity is cheaper than gas for sure, but then there are the batteries which changes everything.

Something has to happen..another breakthrough. We need a new generation battery or the price of batteries has to come down for full-electric vehicles to compete with gas power. Right now you have to either believe the limitations of electric bikes/cars are worth the extra money and additional problems associated with range to go electric, OR in the case of e-bikes, many of us want the exercise but just want a little help. Yet judging from a lot of posts there are many people trying to tweak their e-bikes for more and more power, and more and more speed, At some point, a small GAS scooter or motorcycle with proper suspension, brakes, and wheels might be a more practical choice. They are great fun as well.