"Strong" Build. pic heavy.

[Alan B]

Nice battery friendly dual suspension frame. Need more options like this.

[Alan B]

You might consider the DoctorBass torque plates. They are so thick and strong that you don't need to mess with pinch bolting and they will easily fit inside your wide dropouts. Can be epoxied or welded. See the for sale new section for this sale thread.

[Brentis]

I've got a similar bike which I'm slowly upgrading.
I'd be interested to know what kind of torque plate / torque arm you use and whether you re-use the rear disc brake.
Also wondering where I can get a 16s4p a123 battery if it would fit inside the stock battery case...

Good day monkeychops.

Nice to hear another experimenting with this frame.
I think that's 4 others working this bike frame.
Are you in Canada? whereabouts?

No torque arms or plates for this bike.
I have decided to K.I.S.S. and use Dogman style pinching dropouts.(see 4th or 5th post from the top)
Until I crest 64kph/40mph I will run without a traditional rear brake.(requires some modification as is)
Just regen. and a 90mm front drum, or Front hydro disc when I upgrade.
I don't recommend this set-up unless you have a lot of experience/confidence riding @ speed.
If you are reckless or inattentive you are asking for trouble.

I have learned a couple of things in my 35 years.
One being that when it's your time, it's your time.
I've been close to death on several occasions.
When God wants ya, He'll take ya.
Otherwise,smile and ride smart.

I've cracked open the battery case for some investigating.
16s4p a123 will be tight, and the case itself will require some modding.
If you are in the market for an a123 cyl. pack.
Cell_man is your guy.
http://www.emissions-free.com/index.html
The battery case itself is cheap/brittle plastic. Ditch it.
Build your own battery case for whatever battery you choose.
Lots of extra room in the cage to take advantage of.

For others interested in this frame it seems they are still in production
Here is a seller in the UK http://www.ourcar.co.uk/ECOtornado.htm

Best of luck.
Start a build thread, lots of pics.

[monkeychops]

I have sent doctorbass a PM. I'm thinking that with his derailleur attachment ones I won't need to do any glueing or welding. Not that I could do any welding anyway...

I'm in the UK. The 'our car' link you posted are the people I originally bought the bike from in 2002. Recently I contacted them for advice. No help at all. Never mind - this place has proved a fantastic knowledge base.

I am buying a cellman rear hub DD kit. I am no speed demon. I can do 20 mph on my current mildly modified setup and a top speed of 25 mph is all I want. Any more and I would get too noticed and wouldn't feel safe.

I have a rear pannier rack on my bike on mine and planning to put the brushless controller on that, in a material bag I guess. Wondered where you were going to install yours?

I have a thread going already with lots of noob questions and mistakes etc. I will add more photos from now on - from yours and others it really helps and is loads more interesting to have photos. It's here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32898

[Brentis]

I have sent doctorbass a PM. I'm thinking that with his derailleur attachment ones I won't need to do any glueing or welding. Not that I could do any welding anyway...

...I have a thread going already with lots of noob questions and mistakes etc. I will add more photos from now on - from yours and others it really helps and is loads more interesting to have photos. It's here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=32898

While I won't use them on this build.
I am saving my pennies for a set of Docs plates, just to support a local(Canada local, Big country)
On a job well done.
Kool Kat, that DoctorBass.
He is one of the reasons I was attracted to this forum.
Congrats on the purchase.


I can't believe I missed your thread for so long.
The title of your thread put me off.
Your query is usually a tough answer to take, for most folks.
Answer. Full rebuild.
I see it as an positive opportunity, others, a negative experience.
I'll go back and have a read.
I use so many pictures because I'm a visual learner.
Show me how to do something once, and I'm usually good.
Tell me how to do it. Well that's hit or miss.

To that end more pics.

Controller in cage..JPG (47.73 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Controller in cage.Naturally rests on Battery case support..JPG (43.63 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Controller & Charger ridin' in cage...JPG (52.24 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Controller & Charger ridin' in cage. Side.Lots of room battery still..JPG (52.92 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Controller & Charger ridin' in cage. Side.Lots of room battery still.2.JPG (54.68 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Controller side mount set-up.JPG (57.67 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Controller side mount set-up. from above..JPG (47.7 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Mr. Dropout. Anyone else see a face.JPG (44.62 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Mr. Dropout. Anyone else see a face. Enjoying one..JPG (46.04 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Starting to strip for rebuild ,clean,paint..JPG (63.67 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Sitting Tiger. Grrrr.JPG (56.83 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Look out for the Tiger
Buddhist Cat.

Stay tuned...

[neptronix]

This bike is funky, yet oozing with potential. I can see why you forked over for this thing
It will be a head turner always.

Will be watching..

[Brentis]

Thanks Neptronix.
"Peak Power" has me inspired.
I think I will put the Hs3540 back on "Ghetto", use it as a girlfriend bike.
Then build "Strong" with a 20" Pie II.
H.V. Lyen, and 36s2p lipo.
I'm goin' volting nuts
You need a potent machine to compete around here.

Come on tax refund
Or this may take awhile.
I'll have to start with the Pie II, before it dries up and becomes Pie cubed.
I love saying Pie.
PIE.
Must be a sign.

Some updates...

Stripping it down further.
A blank canvas.

Striped. Side.JPG (54.69 KiB) Viewed 572 times

Rear3rd.JPG (52.91 KiB) Viewed 572 times

Will have to pick up a bottom bracket tool to get old smoothy out/ replaced.
Maybe an extended SBP unit for tire clearance.

87mm Bottom Bracket.JPG (56.29 KiB) Viewed 572 times

Time for some clamping dropouts. Thanks Dogman..JPG (58.71 KiB) Viewed 572 times

Enough for a couple of bikes..JPG (58.61 KiB) Viewed 572 times

Some angled steel.
31mm x 31mm. 3mm Thick. 610mm Long.
I will be utilizing the Dogman method.

mongoose pinch dropout.JPG (51.24 KiB) Viewed 572 times

Thanks Dogman.


Stay Tuned....

[neptronix]

Pie II on 36S2P is going to be stupid fast.
20S2P will already beat all the local high powered motorcycles i've encountered out here, and geometry / wheelies with a 26in. wheel in the front has became a serious prob.

You might actually have really good results with a Crystalyte HT in a 20in. rim. There is certainly a lot more magnet and copper in those motors, and the diameter isn't all too different.

If you have the means, you may want to lean towards that direction. It'd be something i would experiment with, personally.
The tradeoff might be worse heat dissipation however.

Good luck. You have a great chassis there. I wish i could get my hands on one of those - it's a poor man's stealth bike, imho.

[Brentis]

Excuse the MS paint. @ least it's quick.

Horizontal dropouts. Bonus..JPG (36.27 KiB) Viewed 567 times

Horizontal clamping dropout..JPG (37.3 KiB) Viewed 567 times

Comments please.
Do you think I could use a third vertical bolt. Then extend wheelbase.
How far do you think I could xtnd wheelbase?
1" resonable to 6" hangin' it out there.
Wheelbase is currently 1195mm/47"
Be wicked to have the adjust ability.
I plan to run single speed.
Bottom bracket is on swingarm.
So chain tension should not be an issue. Right?
Just the appropriate chain length to support whatever wheelbase is chosen.
Do you think this clamping set-up strong enough to do this?

Jaw drop..JPG (33.5 KiB) Viewed 567 times

Cut-way bottom of the dropout.
Then I could use thicker axle'd scooter/motorcycle hubs.

What y'all think?

[Brentis]

Pie II on 36S2P is going to be stupid fast.
20S2P will already beat all the local high powered motorcycles i've encountered out here, and geometry / wheelies with a 26in. wheel in the front has became a serious prob.

You might actually have really good results with a Crystalyte HT in a 20in. rim. There is certainly a lot more magnet and copper in those motors, and the diameter isn't all too different.

If you have the means, you may want to lean towards that direction. It'd be something i would experiment with, personally.
The tradeoff might be worse heat dissipation however.

Good luck. You have a great chassis there. I wish i could get my hands on one of those - it's a poor man's stealth bike, imho.

How does the MPII compare to X5305 in kv?
I was using the X5305 in a 20" wheel, as an example, on the http://ebike.ca/simulator/.
36s @ 3.7 = 132v @ 25amps = 66kph
36s @ 4.0v = 144v @ 25amps = 69kph
36s @ 4.15 = 149.4v @25 amps 70+
No load speed 95kmh
Exact what I'm looking for.
A 40mphclub bike.
60kph up a mild grade.

Undercover Moped

Switch out to a High Speed motor and go 80kmh+ maybe 100kmh @ higher amps.
Clyte Hs3540 in a 20" wheel(gonna need some cooling mods.) is..
36s @ 4.0v= 144v @ 25amps = 68.8kmh. @2850w. What I want.
Still over 80% eff. but seriously amps limited.
36s @ 4.0v= 144v @ 40 amps = 80.8kmh @4500w. Perfect.
36s @ 4.0v= 144v @65 amps = 94kmh @ 7000w. About the limit of Hs3540.
(*edit* No load speed of 140kmh.)
Undercover super 'Ped

But dam'it I wants me one of them thar' 20" cast Pie's.

Options.

Stay tuned....

[Brentis]

Updates...


A couple of MS Paint drawings, see what will fit.

24s2p 8ah Nano-tech.JPG (55.1 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Looks good, 88v 16ah = 1.4kwh approx.
8 big Lipo packs.

36s2p +++.JPG (59.17 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Wont look as polished,but, 132v 10ah = 1.3kwh.
or 88v 15ah = 1.3kwh.
12 smaller Lipo packs. Flexibility.

I thinks I shall build both.

The start.JPG (57.42 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Notice finger jointed dimensional Pine strips. 3/4" x 7/16" x 8'
Time to build a box.

Since the battery is protected from impact by the metal cage.
My battery box does not have to be structurally strong. Just protect Lipo from the elements.
To that end. I thought I'd try a new (to me) product.
*EDIT*
Do not use this product for Battery box building.
It is NOT waterproof. In fact loses all tact, with very little water contact.
I used a gorilla glue product, that is 100% waterproof.
Actually is water activated.
See future update for more info/pics.

frame glued together..JPG (50.08 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Dries fast and has good tack wet. Dries very strong. Good stuff.
Simple cut and paste. Just like Kindergarten

Starting the case.JPG (49.89 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Coming together.JPG (56.37 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Weighing it down..JPG (54.12 KiB) Viewed 524 times

175mm inside tall..JPG (46.07 KiB) Viewed 524 times

105mm inside.JPG (41.39 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Battery case mounted.Side view..JPG (50.76 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Battery case mounted..JPG (55.3 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Battery case mounted. top view..JPG (43.99 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Battery case mounted. Rear 3rd..JPG (45.63 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Birch panels.JPG (38.93 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Ignore miss shaped pieces leaning against. These were cut for a battery box for my
Cell_man 52v 11.5ah pack.

Leather panels..JPG (53.82 KiB) Viewed 524 times

Sacrificial leather jacket. Good quality 1/8" thick cow.
I thinks I will save the leather for a second rectangular box.
Birch panels for L shaped battery box.

More to come.
Stay tuned....

[monkeychops]

Looks good!

I will be interested to see how you feed the wires out of the box. Will you need easy access to the inside of the box?
I'm sticking with the stock plastic battery case on mine for now. It should fit my new controller (coming soon) and theoretically up to 20Ah of lipo. I shied away from getting a big LifePo battery because I couldn't find one that would fit inside the stock case. Didn't really think of making myself a new case... I quite like the spring loaded contact points on the stock frame (I think you've removed them).

[Brentis]

Thanks Monkeychops.

I did pull out the spring contact power transfer.
With the custom case, it would not have been easy to reuse.
All the wiring, boards, fuses, etc will fit in case.
Only power lines will come out, through a grommet, of some sort.
I will also create an access lid.
Likely at the top of the box, facing the stem.

I plan to run the controller on the downtube in the air stream, and use fenders for protection.

24s2p 8ah Nano-tech.JPG (55.1 KiB) Viewed 511 times

Full fenders are mandatory for me.
I hate dirty shit stripe up my back on wet roads.

Ghetto Bird.jpg (103.37 KiB) Viewed 511 times

I like the look as well.

More to come...

[Brentis]

Update....

This box can fit
8 x 6s 8ah Zippy or Nano-Tech
4 MethTek Lipo boards
Big ole' fuse.

88.8v 16ah 1.4kwh. Easy 100amp cont.

Cuttin' up pieces for a 2nd rectangular box..JPG (44.45 KiB) Viewed 491 times

weighting the new box..JPG (45.62 KiB) Viewed 491 times

24s2p8ah box.Controller mounted..JPG (54.6 KiB) Viewed 491 times

24s2p8ah box.Controller mounted. Rear3rd..JPG (58.01 KiB) Viewed 491 times

24s2p8ah box.Controller mounted. F3rd.JPG (58.29 KiB) Viewed 491 times

Lots of shock clearence.JPG (50.04 KiB) Viewed 491 times

Gotta let it dry until tomorrow.
Then I can leather wrap.

Stay tuned...

[Brentis]

Update...

Time for a shop.
Found a kool new store in town.

Sayal Business card..JPG (85.87 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Got myself a

1.My first soldering iron.JPG (84.89 KiB) Viewed 418 times

5way switch.5w to 40w. $63cdn.JPG (62.27 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Also found this beaut.

Where have you been all my life..JPG (52.03 KiB) Viewed 418 times

A bit pricey, but local. To me local is important.

Perfect for 24s2p 8ah Nano-tech..JPG (62.41 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Perfect fit

Case open..JPG (65.19 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Case open. Side..JPG (57.99 KiB) Viewed 418 times

New tire for the burnt up rear..JPG (45.91 KiB) Viewed 418 times

The "extreme range" battery box.

Maybe 3kwh Lipo..JPG (68.41 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Maybe 3kwh Lipo.Front.JPG (64 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Maybe 3kwh Lipo.Front 3rd.JPG (75.35 KiB) Viewed 418 times

Steering is unimpeded. 3+kwh. 88.8v 40ah easy. Future option.

Stay tuned...

[Brentis]

Update...

gonna be supa' clean..JPG (62.96 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Manufactured look. +.JPG (58.71 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Rear 3rd.JPG (63.39 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Front 3rd.JPG (66.71 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Lookin' up from the rear tire..JPG (37.53 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Lookin' down from the stem..JPG (43.5 KiB) Viewed 385 times

90mm strumey drum+++.JPG (54.12 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Should fit
88.8v 16ahNano = 1.4kwh.
20"Hs3540 @40amps =
107ft.lb @ 0rpm
2550w @ 66kmh
Lot's of fun

Stay tuned...

[monkeychops]

Like the metal box. It looks a really good fit.
Will you have the controller underneath in this configuration as well?

[Brentis]

Like the metal box. It looks a really good fit.
Will you have the controller underneath in this configuration as well?

Thank you.

I am considering this set-up instead.

Optional controller location..JPG (62.44 KiB) Viewed 356 times

Optional controller location.2.JPG (67 KiB) Viewed 356 times

Optional controller location. Good wire location..JPG (64.05 KiB) Viewed 356 times

A bit tight on the thighs when pedaled, but
I don't pedal much.
Lets call it...
Passable.


Stay tuned...

[JoramsWeapon]

Hey great work on the GT! I bought the same thing locally for real cheap last year and made some enhancements to the controller and battery , a also kept the brush geared motor it's a Brett White P2B or P2A and it does take the watts pretty well. I hadn't noticed it before but I go in the garage and check the rear suspension and mine is backwards as well! The frame is heavy and because of the reversed suspension it handled like an overfed pig. 77lbs without batteries...

I was able to cram a maximum of 15S4P of A123 26650 into the original battery box, I'm anxious to see how yours will look when finished as I'm going to take a similar route after I drop the Greyborg motor into that frame when it becomes available !

[teklektik]

I wonder where a guy could find one of those?

Looks like nicobie found a source!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29503&p=524996#p524996

[JoramsWeapon]

Here is my battery case layout before I used a dremel to wear down the plastic separators, 15S4P.

and after soldering up

I could have crammed another 4 cells in there to make it 16S4P but 15S was easier to charge. How is your aluminum battery box holding up?

[Brentis]

Good job J.W.

I have considered sticking with an A123 pack(cell_man).
16s4p fits nice and tight, keeps the manufactured look,
and is basically maintenance free.

Alas, I need more voltage and capacity for what I plan.
I want an honest 64kmh/40mph bike.
Having the flexibility of Lipo, to run either a high voltage/low capacity fast bike.
or lower voltage/higher capacity commuter is paramount.


I haven't used the alu. case yet,as I am still saving my pennies for the lipo packs.
I'll be sure to update when I do.

It's reassuring to see a few of these frames being used.
Where abouts are you located?
Seems quite a few of these were sold in the UK.
Here in Canada they sold coast to coast @ Canadian Tire stores, but each store only moved a few units.
Too expensive I guess ($1000) compared to the Schwinn IZip @ half the price
and the same speed limit, of which they sold plenty.

Back in 2008 when I first got the ebike bug, not knowing anything E, I purchased the Strong.
I was impressed with full suspension, disk brakes, lights, horn, etc.
I rode it for 1 day before it mysteriously "died", in hind sight it was probably a simple fix.
I was pissed, a $1000 for 1 days use. I took it back to the store.
They told me that they had a guy who takes care of the ebikes warranty.
He only came to that store once a month though.

"Give me my money back."
"Sorry we won't except returns on bikes."

I calmly express my displeasure.
They decide that I can exchange for another. I didn't trust that it wouldn't breakdown to.
They suggested I take the Schwinn, plus a few hundred dollars, instead. Much lower rate of problems.
I bit.
Glad I did, because if I got a full return refund, I may never have looked at another Ebike again.

Take care.

[shock]

Cool build! I like the look of the DIY aluminum box. I would fill that with LiPos and be done with it.

My Question is why 20" wheels and not 26"?

[Brentis]

Cool build! I like the look of the DIY aluminum box. I would fill that with LiPos and be done with it.

My Question is why 20" wheels and not 26"?

First.
I likes me some torque.
Given equal volts/amps, a 20" wheel will have more torque/less speed than a 26" wheel.
It should also run cooler/ be easier on controllers.

Second
I am looking to build something closer to a moped than a bike.
So a tire upgrade seems prudent.
16" moped tires just happen to fit 20" bicycle rims.

Third

I think it looks kool.


There are other reasons, but I am writing this on an iPhone, and my patience with this format just ran out.

Stay tuned...

[Brentis]

Cool build! I like the look of the DIY aluminum box. I would fill that with LiPos and be done with it.

My Question is why 20" wheels and not 26"?

First.
I likes me some torque.
Given equal volts/amps, a 20" wheel will have more torque/less speed than a 26" wheel.
It should also run cooler/ be easier on controllers.

Second
I am looking to build something closer to a moped than a bike.
So a tire upgrade seems prudent.
16" moped tires just happen to fit 20" bicycle rims.

Third

I think it looks kool.


There are other reasons, but I am writing this on an iPhone, and my patience with this format just ran out.

Stay tuned...

Some more thoughts on 20" vs. 26"...

This build is currently using a C-Lyte Hx3540.
A fairly fast wind.(I see Ebikes.ca is offering a 3548 now )
I also want to pop my Lipo cherry on this build.
I plan to start with 24s2p.
88.8v nom 99.6v hot
88.8@40amps on a 21.5"(pirelli) Hs3540=
72.5kph top speed.
2650w peak
100'lbs @ 0rpm
Overheat in 58min. 83.7%eff.
in a race tuck
I am looking for 60kph, so good headroom.

Under the same voltage, amperage, conditions.
88.8v@40amps on a 26" Hs3540=
75.4kph top speed.
2650w peak
83'lbs @0rpm
Overheat in14mins still 81.5 eff. but much narrower efficiency band.

So theoretically, a 26" gains 3kph, loses 17'lbs, an burns up vs. a moped tired 20".
No choice to me.

20" conversions of 26" bikes, create its own set of challenges.
Potential geometry issues, Pedal strike, crank strike, parts fitment.
I think the challenge is worth the reward.
I have had to deal with clearance issues on all my builds.(see sig.)
It can be overcome.

My next build will include a custom frame, based on Strong,
but designed to accommodate any hub motor,Bike, Scooter,Moto.
And better designed Batt.area/rear shock placement/seat area.
Still in the paper drawing stage, but I gotta keep the mind busy.
Time to take some welding classes.

Stay tuned...