Greyborg Cromotor Hubzilla motors, Sold Out

[zombiess]

Cromotor Hubzilla motors are in stock To order, please email jwolf at dodecahedronsolutions.com and supply your email address and physical mailing address (UPS will not deliver to a PO Box) and I will invoice you the total.
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When I run out of dual pattern motors, the single pattern motors are can have bicycle spokes installed with the use of washers.

05-17-12 I currently have 27 motors left with several invoices out pending payment.
05-23-12 21 motors left, 11 with dual pattern holes, 10 with motorcycle spokes.
05-25-12 19 motors left, 10 with dual pattern holes, 9 with motorcycle spokes.
06-04-12 17 motors left, 8 with dual pattern holes, 9 with motorcycle spokes.
06-30-12 15 motors left, 7 with dual pattern holes, 8 with motorcycle spokes.
07-15-12 13 motors left, 4 with dual pattern holes, 9 with motorcycle spokes.
07-19-12 12 motors left, 3 with dual pattern holes, 7 with motorcycle spokes. (5 reserved, 3 dual pattern, 2 single pattern)
07-23-12 07 motors left, 7 with motorcycle spoke holes. Bicycle spokes can be used with washers.
08-11-12 01 motors left, 1 with motorcycle spoke holes. Bicycle spokes can be used with washers.
08-11-12 sold out.

If I run out in this batch you will be first in the next batch I receive.
Final pricing is $595 USD + Shipping for dual pattern $575 USD + Shipping for motorcycle pattern. 10% off 2 12% off 3 13% off 4. I am also looking for shops, businesses and Ebike builders interested in reselling and can offer great deals on orders of 10 or more but those size orders will have to wait for the next order I place. Please contact me if you are interested.
Since I am accepting credit cards and using Paypal all shipments will be going out with a tracking number.

Here are the latest pictures and some explanations of what they represent. They will be posted on http://www.greyborgusa.com later this week when I have time to update the site so I can stop posting as much business stuff on this site as I'm mainly on the site for tech, not so much to sell stuff (I appreciate being able to do both).

New bigger 16mm axles with 10mm flats which are 224mm / 8.8" long total length with the threaded portion being 40mm / 1.57" on each side.

Greyborg was unable to get the mating connector for the hall sensors this time around, so you will need to cut it off and supply your own. This is a fairly trivial thing to do as I do it to every motor I own since I like small connectors for the halls and use ones made by Molex I buy at Fry's on all my motors and throttles. We might be able to get some in the future, I'll ask but it is what it is for now.

Here are some new pictures as promised. Previous motors had the covers painted all black, time ran out this time and it was unable to be done, but can still be done by you if you wish. The covers are also slightly different vs the last covers because they came from a different manufacturer.

My supply after I powered up each motor to verify it worked, my back hurt after doing this to over 400kg worth of motors, too much bending over for my spine which is falling apart and now keeping me up awake late. Good news is most motors are boxed up just waiting for me to add the waster and axles nuts before being sealed and addressed for pick up by UPS.

My supply after I powered up each motor to verify it worked.

Drilled holes for bicycle spokes spokes, 28 of the motors come with dual pattern

Variance in stator position, as you can see the motors stators are in slightly different positions due to they way they were manufactured, axles are all identical.

Magnets in the magnet ring vary a little in position from motor to motor so it's not wise to swap stators from one motor to another unless you verify it fits perfect with full magnet coverage.

Disc brake adapter and wire outlet

Disc brake adapter and wire outlet

Disc brake adapter and wire outlet

My ghetto test setup

Showing the width of my drop outs

Showing the width of my drop outs

Motor installed into a 150mm dropout

Wire side clearance, C washers will be needed, hope to get some made soon for those that want to buy them

Freewheel side clearance, I'm supplying a washer that will prevent the freewheel from binding when using a single speed, also shows the longer threaded portion of the axle.

Motor was re-centered, this is the distance measured from the frame to the outside spoke flange on the freewheel side, measurement done properly, then caliper positioned to illustrate what was being measured.

Motor was re-centered, this is the distance measured from the frame to the outside spoke flange on the disc side, as you can see you should be able to get the flange pretty close to center if not exactly centered with spacers.


New 16mm axle installed.


If you are using SWBluto's simulator you can use the esim file I've come up with to play around with different wheels and scenarios. Right click, save file as and download http://dynamic.opticalanarchy.com:8080/zombie/bike/greyborg/hubzilla.esim

I'm not guaranteeing this is 100% accurate, but it should be pretty close based on observations. Bicycle is modeled after my bike and everything seems to match up really well.

His simulator was available in this thread, I think it's still in there somewhere http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6892

If not I'm hosting it on my website with the hubzilla.esim file already in it.
http://dynamic.opticalanarchy.com:8080/zombie/bike/ebikecalc17/


***********************************************************************************
Mechanical / Electrical Info:
Bare motor weight is 22.4lbs / 10.18Kg (see picture on scale for reference)
http://dynamic.opticalanarchy.com:8080/zombie/bike/greyborg/hubzillaweight.jpg
Continuous power handling: 4000W (please read the following note about wattage ratings), if you stall the motor at zero RPM and put 4000W into it of course you will melt it, even 1000W could would damage it if left stalled for long enough. Your wheel size plays a large factor in this, the larger the wheel the less efficient the motor, on flat surfaces this is generally a non issue, but if you choose to climb steep hills with a 29" wheel using this motor I suggest you carefully monitor the motor temp and also the controller temperature. The same general rules that apply to all hub motors still apply to this one and must be observed. This motor is capable of surviving many situations where other motors would not, but caution must still be used.
Motor has hall sensors at 120 degrees
Phase wires are around 11 gauge (and have been fine with me dumping 10KW into it and not getting warm)
All wires exit through the bearing on the disc brake side and not through a hollow axle like 9C motors
Axle diameter is 16mm with 10mm flat
Axle Length is 224mm / 8.8" with 40mm of thread on each side, the center section of the axle is 144mm/5.67" wide
Unloaded Motor Speed was measured at 9.3kV, see video below
Motor comes with 36 4mm holes for motorcycle spokes and also some with the option that have an additional 36 holes drilled for 12-14 gauge bicycle spokes, please specify when ordering.
Motor only accepts a single speed freewheel in most cases, I haven't heard of anyone running more than a single speed on�it.
Can be fit into some 135mm drop outs if the drop outs are made 10-15mm wider. It's not recommended to widen and aluminum frame more than a few mm at most, this is a personal decision (and any frame damage / failure that occurs is on you) if you choose to do so.

This motor kicks some serious butt and is the most powerful hub motor I know of available for a bicycle. It produces scary amounts of torque if you feed it volts/amps. This motor was adopted from motorcycle/scooters for use in bicycles.

Here are some estimates I've made based off of simulating this motor after riding mine and observing it. These may not be exact but they should get you into the general ball park of what to expect. It has been very easy on my controller. I personally run mine at 125V (30S3P LiPo), 85A battery (have run 105A battery several times) and 115-130 phase amps (it's hard for me to ride at 130 phase amps due to pulling 20+mph power wheelies if not completely leaned over the bars and even then it still picks the front end up a little) with a highly modified Lyen 18 FET IRFB4115 controller pushing over 10KW into it. This motor is pretty tame on controllers. I will try to get some idea of efficiency vs my 9C 2806 with the same diameter rear tire next weekend after I'm feeling better.

Simulation was done with Bicycle + rider weight at a total of 275lbs. All diameters are tire diameter.

36V Level Ground
16" wheel = 14mph / 22kph @ 14A
20" wheel = 18mph / 28kph @ 18A
22" wheel = 19mph / 30kph @ 21A
24" wheel = 20mph / 32kph @ 24A
26" wheel = 22mph / 36 kph @ 27A
29" wheel = 23mph / 37 kph @ 31A

36V 10% Grade
16" wheel = 12mph / 19kph @ 37A
20" wheel = 14mph / 22kph @ 46A
22" wheel = 15mph / 24kph @ 51A
24" wheel = 16mph / 25kph @ 56A
26" wheel = 17mph / 27kph @ 61A
29" wheel = 17mph / 27kph @ 68A

50V Level Ground
16" wheel = 20mph / 32kph @ 17A
20" wheel = 25mph / 40kph @ 23A
22" wheel = 27mph / 43kph @ 27A
24" wheel = 29mph / 46kph @ 32A
26" wheel = 30mph / 48kph @ 36A
29" wheel = 33mph / 52kph @ 44A

50V 10% Grade
16" wheel = 18mph / 28kph @ 39A
20" wheel = 22mph / 35kph @ 51A
22" wheel = 23mph / 36kph @ 56A
24" wheel = 24mph / 38kph @ 63A
26" wheel = 25mph / 40kph @ 69A
29" wheel = 27mph / 43kph @ 78A

75V Level Ground
16" wheel = 31mph / 49kph @ 24A
20" wheel = 36mph / 57kph @ 37A
22" wheel = 40mph / 64kph @ 44A
24" wheel = 42mph / 67kph @ 52A
26" wheel = 45mph / 72kph @ 60A
29" wheel = 48mph / 76kph @ 74A

75V 10% Grade
16" wheel = 29mph / 46kph @ 46A
20" wheel = 34mph / 54kph @ 62A
22" wheel = 36mph / 57kph @ 71A
24" wheel = 38mph / 60kph @ 81A
26" wheel = 40mph / 64kph @ 90A
29" wheel = 42mph / 67kph @ 105A

100V Level Ground
16" wheel = 41mph / 65kph @ 34A
20" wheel = 49mph / 73kph @ 54A
22" wheel = 52mph / 83kph @ 65A
24" wheel = 55mph / 88kph @ 78A
26" wheel = 58mph / 92kph @ 91A
29" wheel = 61mph / 97kph @ 111A

100V 10% Grade
16" wheel = 39mph / 62kph @ 55A
20" wheel = 46mph / 73kph @ 79A
22" wheel = 49mph / 78kph @ 92A
24" wheel = 52mph / 83kph @ 105A
26" wheel = 54mph / 86kph @ 119A
29" wheel = 57mph / 91kph @ 140A

125V Level Ground
16" wheel = 51mph / 81kph @ 46A
20" wheel = 60mph / 96kph @ 75A
22" wheel = 64mph / 102kph @ 91A
24" wheel = 68mph / 108kph @ 109A
26" wheel = 71mph / 113kph @ 127A
29" wheel = 74mph / 118kph @ 155A

125V 10% Grade
16" wheel = 49mph / 78kph @ 67A
20" wheel = 57mph / 91kph @ 99A
22" wheel = 61mph / 97kph @ 117A
24" wheel = 64mph / 102kph @ 135A
26" wheel = 67mph / 107kph @ 153A
29" wheel = 70mph / 112kph @ 181A

For those wondering about hill climbing power (with lots of written details) see this thread or to skip the nerd stuff just watch the video below
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37007


Speed of this motor, it is 9.3kv laced into a pretty beefy 24" wheel run on a 6 FET sensorless controller set to 100% throttle. At 50.2V input it runs at 468 RPM. This is an earlier motor they were testing with that has different covers but the stator and windings are identical. It is Markobettis' personal motor.



Hill climbing test video


This is a short video of my friend doing some high speed flybys while I took video of him having fun. Had the power turned down to 70A so it was more ridable because I've been commuting on it. He topped out at 55mph in the video. He's also 6'5' 220lbs.



Thanks,

Jeremy Wolf aka ZombieSS
Dodecahedron Solutions Inc
jwolf at dodecahedronsolutions dot com

[Alan B]

Congratulations.

It would have been faster for me to drive to your place than to order from Croatia direct.

[ohzee]

sounds real good - I am interested in their products and yea the distance does make it more complicated.

[zombiess]

Accountant and Greyborg have done an excellent job with their products and shipping but yes, being in a different country and not being able to accept credit cards easily makes doing business a bit harder and makes the prices higher. I'm helping them close that gap here in the US. In addition I'm going to try and help out by having certain parts produced such as custom C washers which are needed for some installs. I'm working on several things at the moment which should help everyone out from controller mods to clamping style torque arms for different sized axles. I'm lucky to be surrounded by friends with good skill sets, machining and fabrication skills so I'm hoping to be able to provide additional products that will help people install this motor into their own frames as I did on my own bicycle.

There are also more good things to come from Greyborg as well.

[rojitor]

Awesome! Exponential growth. Congrats pal.

[Lebowski]

congratulations ! Maybe you can post a picture and specs of the motors here ?

[Fishmasterdan]

Put me down for a 9kv one or slower.

[fractal]

That is very good news! I have the «cromotor» and although I have yet to try it, I can see that it is very good quality. Also, dealing with Vladimir was very easy and pleasurable. Greyborg is a good company.

[MattyCiii]

Congratulations!
I wish you well on the business, it's great to see the USA E-bike dealer side grow.

[neptronix]

Friggin' awesome, zombieSS..

Now my tax return is gonna be in jeopardy..

[ROG130]

THATS GOOD NEWS
WISH THERE WAS A UK DEALER AS IMPORT TAX IS A KILLER OVER HERE SOD IMPORT DUTY

[dogman]

Great news for the ultralight motorcycle crowd in the USA! Enough market here to make it worthwhile I bet.

Now, If only I had an income, and was getting a good refund..... I'd love to try one of these motors on a street legal 125 frame. Just a dream for me though.

[zombiess]

Great news for the ultralight motorcycle crowd in the USA! Enough market here to make it worthwhile I bet.

Now, If only I had an income, and was getting a good refund..... I'd love to try one of these motors on a street legal 125 frame. Just a dream for me though.

Tax refunds are horrible, should never give interest free loans to uncle sam if you can avoid it.

[JoramsWeapon]

I'd be interested in making a deposit to reserve one. For a 10kw-capable hub <=$650 that isn't too bad, have you considered offering the hubs laced to rims or as a kit with controller and throttle etc?

[zombiess]

I'd be interested in making a deposit to reserve one. For a 10kw-capable hub <=$650 that isn't too bad, have you considered offering the hubs laced to rims or as a kit with controller and throttle etc?

I've been thinking about several things and in discussions with Accountant. I'm flying over to meet him this week. Deposits will be taken when motors are closer to being ready, no sooner. No money will be accepted until I have a good timeline on the motors, it's just better this way. I have 30 coming for now and there will be more available after that with a little wait + some other goodies coming in the future.

[POPS]

Good for you and good luck with your new company!
Can you tell me how well these hubs handle hills
And what kind of distence do you think it could obtain
with say your bike.
Don't forget about us in Canada for shipping!

Rick

[teklektik]

Any thoughts on what kv motors you will be importing?

[ohzee]

Will you stock frames as well ? I am going to be investing in some type of new from. As of yet I am just not decided but the greyborg is on my short list.

[BlackArrow]

Hi Zombiess,

I'm planning to buy a Cromotor at the end of feburay (i'm in Canada) can i deal with you or with Accountant?

Thank you!
Black Arrow

[zombiess]

Will you stock frames as well ? I am going to be investing in some type of new from. As of yet I am just not decided but the greyborg is on my short list.

Yes, I plan to stock frames as well and am building one for myself.

Hi Zombiess,
I'm planning to buy a Cromotor at the end of feburay (i'm in Canada) can i deal with you or with Accountant?

Thank you!
Black Arrow

I'll have to talk to him about this to make sure there is no Canadian conflict but I don't think it will be an issue. I'll be able to provide a ride impression after next week since I haven't been on a Greyborg frame yet.

Any thoughts on what kv motors you will be importing?

All motors for sale will be the same as mine for now which should be 9.2-9.5KV (sorry I haven't measured it exactly yet). I should be getting a 13KV motor for myself if all goes well so I can test it out + stress some controller mods I'm doing. I'm sure if there is demand for this faster wind I can order more from him in the next batch they get made.

There is no need for a slower wind on this motor than 9.2KV because it makes crazy torque. This is the first hub motor I'd be OK with putting into a 29er at higher power. Once more people get theirs up and running we'll have more independent viewpoints vs my slightly more abusive racer mentality on this But seriously, the torque these can make is literally scary and I'm barely feeding it any phase amps because I want a bike not a catapult. Remember that this is a MOTORCYCLE hub motor, not a bicycle hub motor, it's just been adapted. It's rated for 3KW continuous use in something heavier than a bicycle.

[BlackArrow]

Hi Zombiess,

Thanks the motor is the "perfect" candidat for the "Black Arrow" too much torque, didn't scare me and making wheelie's and watching sky will be fun, my ebike will be awesome

Good day!
Black Arrow

[teklektik]

...I'm targeting a price under $650 for the bare motors with discounts for multiple units.

There is no need for a slower wind on this motor than 9.2KV because it makes crazy torque. ... Once more people get theirs up and running we'll have more independent viewpoints vs my slightly more abusive racer mentality on this ... It's rated for 3KW continuous use in something heavier than a bicycle.

It's clear from the forums that there is a large group of folks who are awaiting some real-world stats to try to work out what this thing can do for their particular needs - some who want a machine with torque to plow the north forty instead of taking it to the salt flats. Anecdotes so far are pretty exclusively from the high speed club and are pretty thin on quantitative data.

I might suggest taking a small business write-off in your new persona as Greyborg USA and sending Justin a motor to get tested and into the simulator. Justin is super busy, but it seems it would be valuable to pursue this with him. This would give the motor market visibility on his site (and beyond the ES forum) and put the performance data out there in a familiar form where builders could easily make component decisions and motor comparisons... I'm pretty certain this would close the deal for a lot of folks - whether they've already heard of this motor or not.... Just a thought...

[gensem]

+1 for sending Justin a motor for testing. Everyone would have access to actual data in the simulator. That would be a major advertising for Greyborg in USA and Canada market.

[zombiess]

It is a good idea, but I'm just starting out right now and there is a limited supply in the short term, but I would very much like this motor to be in the simulator. I'm working on a simulator using the ebikecalc17 program right now based off the data I have so far.

I'm anxious to see others get theirs running specifically the guys with 24" and 26" wheels. The Greyborg guys said they don't like to put them in anything smaller than a 24" bicycle wheel because of the torque and I think I agree. When JohnRobHolmes gets some 17" aluminum moped wheels in I'm thinking I'm going to move up a tire size to try and tame it a little more. I myself still need to test the climbing ability but I've been told speed will barely drop and I believe it, but that doesn't help many others what I believe. I still also need to compare efficiency to my 9C 2806 which is a well known setup and can do that in a few weeks following the exact same circuit I normally ride at sane speeds (almost all under 30mph) and monitor the consumption.

This is just one of those things where we need some more independent tests. I originally started out as an independent user but now I'm a dealer so I want someone else up and running to post their experience.

My biggest warning to all is make sure your dropouts and torque arm setup are overkill and have a good wheel build. I'm using DoctorBass torque arms as my dropouts welded to my extended swing arm. Very nice and beefy. 2nd piece of advice, start low on controller settings and work up. Motor seems easy on the controllers, it just produces A LOT of torque.

[nicobie]

If you are looking for a true unbiased evaluation there really is no substitute for getting it tested by Justin. I'm sure he would be glad to send it back after he is done with it. Maybe the Greyborg guys would help out with this? I would think that they would like the publicity.

See you at the next race.

Nick