So : who's tempted to build Luke's Goldenmotor mach 1 bike?

[Arlo1]

I wana build one better but im broke. So....... Well we will see what the crystal ball brings me.

[drewjet]

Tempted, no, Do it, HELL YES! Currently running a Brushed Etek and an Altrax 7245 on 18S4P of 4500 nanotech.

As it sits now, Buit is getting painted and reassembled in the next 2 days

Racebike.jpg (95.32 KiB) Viewed 412 times

On board Video

[Thud]

Ive got a Perm132 on the bench now....need to sell off a few things & deliver a few more....but I am coming to the track with some serious dope.

(get some )

[drewjet]

Got it mostly reassembled, just need the motor reinstalled that I loaned to my buddy.

2012-02-16 16.41.56.jpg (109.45 KiB) Viewed 384 times

2012-02-16 16.41.38.jpg (97.29 KiB) Viewed 384 times

[liveforphysics]

SWEET!!!!!!!!


That should go hard drewjet!!! Woot!!! Nice work!!!

[nicobie]

Ive got a Perm132 on the bench now....need to sell off a few things & deliver a few more....but I am coming to the track with some serious dope.

(get some )

Check

[John in CR]

Guys, please put proper tires on those things. Luke, I can't believe you're still running those silly bicycle tires. Even though I know you fully accept the risk, we want you around for a whole lot longer, so we don't.

[Byte]

@Drewjet: How often do you need to replace the brushes from that brushed motor?

[drewjet]

Guys, please put proper tires on those things. Luke, I can't believe you're still running those silly bicycle tires. Even though I know you fully accept the risk, we want you around for a whole lot longer, so we don't.

John,

I run Michelin Gazelle's. They are mpoed tires speed rated to 95MPH.

[drewjet]

@Drewjet: How often do you need to replace the brushes from that brushed motor?

I have no idea yet. I run this same motor at 24 volts in my electrathon. In 2 1/2 years of racing (probably 1500 miles or more) there is virtually no wear at all. I am sure that at 72 volts and hitting peaks of 500 amps that these will wear faster. However my plan is to either get Recumpence's new 4" Astro, or the 12KW Croation Outrunner, or LFP's setup eventually. But until that happens, I will keep an eye on the wear.

[Byte]

@Drewjet: How often do you need to replace the brushes from that brushed motor?

I have no idea yet. I run this same motor at 24 volts in my electrathon. In 2 1/2 years of racing (probably 1500 miles or more) there is virtually no wear at all. I am sure that at 72 volts and hitting peaks of 500 amps that these will wear faster. However my plan is to either get Recumpence's new 4" Astro, or the 12KW Croation Outrunner, or LFP's setup eventually. But until that happens, I will keep an eye on the wear.

Wow that's very nice! I thought they'd only wear a 30 miles or something lol.

Oh, and another question: The speed in the vid are MPH not KMH, right? Very nice build!

[drewjet]

I have put over 200 miles on this bike. I didn't look at the brushes till just a week ago or so, and they were still less than 1/2 worn. I bought the motor used, and never looked, so no idea where they were when I started.

Yes MPH! This is USA, we may not be in tune with the rest of the Metric world, but too bad.

Come on, somebody else surely must have the balls to be building one of these death bikes too.

[Byte]

I have put over 200 miles on this bike. I didn't look at the brushes till just a week ago or so, and they were still less than 1/2 worn. I bought the motor used, and never looked, so no idea where they were when I started.

Yes MPH! This is USA, we may not be in tune with the rest of the Metric world, but too bad.

Come on, somebody else surely must have the balls to be building one of these death bikes too.

oooh nice, mph! That thing pulls fast! Should be awesome to drive with!

If my brushless combo (Turnigy 80100 and HV160) will fail again - like it already did once - I will start looking at this brushed stuff.

[Thud]

Come on, somebody else surely must have the balls to be building one of these death bikes too.

My lunch time sketching this week has been focused on this bike.....which may work out to be my daily comuter is it all works out.
I rarlely wast my time drawing all the little components in deatil. but the geometry is from a 2001 TZ125 road racer.

this is close to finished & i am liking the weight distrabutions so far. 18c5p lipo. split downtube to cradle & protect the motor if i crash..same on the top tube to cradle the battery box....just enough room to squeak an alltrax7245 in there also.

See the perm132 bike concept:


Its got 3.5" of rear wheel travel & its drawn with some std forks....I have a cool girder knock off I really want to build...but alas, my time is not mine alone these days. If the plan comes together this will be my "unlimited" bike for the california race in October at the grange, or possibly the december event in Riverside. The Bairdco series definatly won't be ready for any of the thunderdrome events in MI this spring.
still waiting to see if DesignLogic gets his series going & how far away those will be. I need to build enough bikes to get another rider interested in carpooling to the events.

[gensem]

John im sure he is using bicycle tires just for the show. I mean its cool to see a wheel undressing itself. hehe
Moped tires ftw!
Btw colossus shoulda be much better to use as a "commuter" motor... someone just have to find a way to drive it.

[liveforphysics]

I think Farfel's double wide magic pie is going to be a pretty epic beastly bike as well (he bought two, unwound them, machined custom bits to stick them together, and is re-winding it). 36mm stator width, 265mm diameter, that's going to be a serious bike. 300cm^2 of working flux area on a 13.25cm radius, lets make up a potential torque unit and call it MTU, he has 3975MTU. That thing is going to have some stupid torque. My deathbike motor is ~150mm x ~100mm stator, 235cm^2 of working flux area on a 7.5cm radius *3.73:1 gearing, for 6574MTU. The the same ~2T flux limits of the stator materials, he should be capable of ~60% of the acceleration of my deathbike, which is pretty f'ing insanely fast.

Coupled to a light chassis, it shoudl be the fastest hubmotor bike ever so far, by a healthy margin.

[lostrack]

would it help the forum to have some sort of rating system?
That would be pretty neat... Luke I'm sure you would approve

[drewjet]

I like it Thud. I already knew you had the correct combination of mechanical ability, balls and insanity to make it happen. I have read of Farfle's motor build and it should provide the needed rush. Who else?

[grindz145]

That's freaking awesome Drewjet! Loveit!

How did you get that display on your video? Pretty trick.

I'm working on a little design with a Perm PMG 132... May not have pedals though.... I know I know Hereticks.

[liveforphysics]

Ok ok... I don't know how to read dyno charts but is that 4000 FT-LBS of starting torque and 35hp near the end?
Wow.
Nice one for finally getting it on the dyno.
Golden motor need to jump on these specs in their marketing dept....they have a beast!

Weight?

It has a full build thread, and it's been on the dyno about 20 times or so. The initial torque number of 4000ft-lbs is unfortunately measurement artifact, as it believes the rotor had zero RPM and them moved to some RPM with no time interval, so it maxes the possible range for a tenth of a second or so when you start a pull.

The motor can only survive these power levels for about 10seconds continuously. Golden's specs of 10kw for the motor is already over-stated, it actually will burn up at ~7kw continuously. In a larger vehicle, this motor would be pathetic. It only works so well in the bicycle because it's big and dumb enough to have a little time delay before it can fail, but every time I'm dumping 70kw into it, it's just rapidly heading down that path towards failure, and only lives because the bicycle gets to speed so quickly, removing the load from the motor in just a few seconds.

For a data-point, in the last road race with this motor, we were running about 1/4 the power to it, and used ~1.2kw-hr over the course of 10 laps that were 50seconds each. This is 8.3minutes to eat 1.2kw-hr, which makes the average power fed to the motor just 8.6kw, and it overheated so badly it melted it's hall sensors...

It's not a miracle motor. It's not even a good motor. It just happens to be big enough to survive for the few seconds at a time it's able to get loaded for in this application.

[drewjet]

That's freaking awesome Drewjet! Loveit!

How did you get that display on your video? Pretty trick.

I'm working on a little design with a Perm PMG 132... May not have pedals though.... I know I know Hereticks.

At these power levels the pedals are only for looks and for Johnny Law.

The vides comes fram a free android app called alapHD. And then I used race render 2 to put the video together. I need to remember to tape the mic next time I make a recording.

[zombiess]

Dyno result teaser, note! This was not WOT, because I could not get the tire to stop slipping on the roller, so I had to lay into the pull very softly, and it's drag is setup for a full weight motorcycle with full motorcycle aero drag. It's a teaser because I only let you see to 42mph It pulls past 100mph.

What is your torque at 5252 RPM? PM if you care to share privately

If you ever want to setup some street action for some $$$ in my hood just let me know and I'll get it arranged, just make sure you sand bag the first few. I bet I can get some takers.

[grindz145]

That's freaking awesome Drewjet! Loveit!

How did you get that display on your video? Pretty trick.

I'm working on a little design with a Perm PMG 132... May not have pedals though.... I know I know Hereticks.

At these power levels the pedals are only for looks and for Johnny Law.

The vides comes fram a free android app called alapHD. And then I used race render 2 to put the video together. I need to remember to tape the mic next time I make a recording.

Sweet! Ill have to download that!

[gensem]

LUKE,
I dont understand your math but how many "MTUs" would a cromotor have?

[liveforphysics]

** Note, I would like to clarify somethings before presenting my calculations for these various hubs.

This is a super crude possible torque index based just off the idea that you can saturate the whole flux gap area with a given amount of flux. The motors with lots more copper and mass are the only ones that can survives this absurd torque condition for more than a second or two, and that's why your x5 rips and survives it where the lighter hx35 would go pop, but just before it popped, it should be capable of these relative torque outputs.

That's why it's my own screw-ball goofy unit, made up just for the wacky mad scientist types who are looking to push these limits of exploding the motor (and likely the controller as well) for 2 seconds of intense thrust.

As a unit to relate how one motor will perform over another in the real world, or which will deliver a better riding experience, or which will win on the track, it's completely useless.

It's just a goof-ball unit to relate which could produce the biggest torque before it exploded into plasma, and it may not even be correct for that, because it's based on the assumption that they all would be using the same materials with roughly the same saturation flux density in this gap, and I am not a motor expert by any means, so it's just my best guess work.

LUKE,
I dont understand your math but how many "MTUs" would a cromotor have?

Clyte 40x series = 4.2cm * 17.1 *3.14 * (17.1/2) = 1,916 MTU

Clyte 530x series = 3.3cm * 20.5 *3.14 * (20.5/2) = 2,177 MTU

Clyte 540x series = 4.0cm *20.5*3.14 * (20.5/2) = 2,639 MTU

9C = 2.8cm*19.8*3.14* (19.8/2) = 1,723 MTU

Clyte HT/HS35 3.5cm 19.8*3.14 *(19.8/2) = 2,154 MTU

CroMotor 5cm*19.8*3.14 *(19.8/2) = 3,077 MTU

MagicPie 1.8cm*3.14 *26.5*(26.5/2) = 1,984 MTU

The larger diameter CroMotor 2.3cm*3.14*26.5*(26.5/2) = 2,535 MTU

The Farfle custom 2pi = 3.6cm*3.14*26.5*(26.5/2) = 3,967 MTU

JohnInCR's HubZilla = 5.0cm*3.14*27.0(27.0/2) = 5,722 MTU

My deathbike 6,574 MTU


To be perfect, this unit should have winding factor included (the average ratio of teeth from a given phase set that are lined up properly with magnets when energized), except... it's between 0.93 and 0.95 for all these motors, so I'm just neglecting it. Also, I realized that Pi is a comonality, and this is a comparison unit, so it could be dropped... but I all ready put it in, it's my unit, and it doesn't cause any harm.

So, this unit estimates that for a given stator material saturation (which is about 2T in normal stuff, some RC stuff may have exotic cobalt alloys and be a little higher, but hubs are all the same stuff), the theoretical torque it could achieve if you were sending it every bit of power it could handle until it was at the limit of saturation. So, to determine a way to relate acceleration capability (or thrust), we need to relate to tire size as well. So, I'm going to call 24" tire a 1 multiplier (because it makes things easy when thrust is also ft-lbs of torque). This means a 20" wheel would be a 1.2 multiplier, and a 26' wheel would be a 0.92 multiplier, and a 29" wheel would be a 0.82 multiplier.



So, if every motor is pumped as hard as it can be pumped (to saturation), this is a semi-fair way to relate the acceleration rate/thrust between the combos.

*** Keep in mind, this unit is NOT relating continuous power at all. Continuous power is entirely a game of how much surface area you can rapid exchange air across the hot places, and how much heat you're making. ***

This is purely a number for relating the thrust these various motors are capable of making in a situation where you're pushing them right to the saturation point, and this would mean you've only got a few seconds of survival for any of these motors at this point, so it's NOT a relative number for making comparisons between anything but things like 0-60mph capability, or drag racing capability. (though most would not survive a full quarter mile at these power levels).


Clyte 40x
20" wheel = 2,299 MTU
24" wheel = 1,916 MTU
26" wheel = 1,762 MTU
29" wheel = 1,571 MTU

Clyte 530x
20" wheel = 1,814 MTU
24" wheel = 2,177 MTU
26" wheel = 2,002 MTU
29" wheel =

Clyte 540x
20" wheel = 3,166 MTU
24" wheel = 2,639 MTU
26" wheel = 2,427 MTU
29" wheel =

Clyte HS/HT35
20" wheel = 2,584 MTU
24" wheel = 2,154 MTU
26" wheel = 1,981 MTU
29" wheel =

CroMotor
20" wheel = 3,692 MTU
24" wheel = 3,077 MTU
26" wheel = 2,830 MTU
29" wheel = 2,523 MTU

MagicPie
20" wheel = 2,380 MTU
24" wheel = 1,984 MTU
26" wheel = 1,825 MTU
29" wheel =

Larger Diameter CroMotor
20" wheel = 3,042 MTU
24" wheel = 2,535 MTU
26" wheel = 2,332 MTU
29" wheel =

Farfle 2Pi
20" wheel = 4,760 MTU
24" wheel = 3,967 MTU
26" wheel = 3,649 MTU
29" wheel =


John's HubZilla
20" wheel = 6,866 MTU
24" wheel = 5,722 MTU
26" wheel = 5,264 MTU
29" wheel =



John's HubZilla motor in a 20" wheel should be capable of producing more thrust than my Deathbike. This is kinda blowing my mind to see, but I believe it's true. I also believe it's big and dumb and heavy enough to survive a quarter mile. I may need to get one of them...