Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit

[zukster]

Car Stereo Installers use those bullet connections all the time

Thanks for the clue. I'll check it out. My large 30 amp 12 fet Infineon controller came with 12 awg versions of these connectors, so I know they're out there somewhere.

Edit: Those aren't the same. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_m38_i342_house-brand-bullet-connectors.html

Those are standard bullet connectors. The other ones are brass and have little green boots to slide over them once connected.

[Sacman]

My appologies... until now I didn't see your pics of these with green boot posted on the previous page. The wiring that comes with most car stereo speakers have those on the ends that go to the head unit or amp. We used to have cars that came in with sound system problems and a good percentage was due to those connectors shorting out. Mainly because that clear rubber boot would dry up, crack and fall apart. So we used to cut them off and use standard bullet connectors. I hope that green boot is made of better material these days.

I'd love to find some of these connectors that come with the older Bafangs and Infineons. See pics below.

[teklektik]

Car Stereo Installers use those bullet connections all the time

Edit: Those aren't the same. Those are standard bullet connectors.

Yep - these are the 'new' standard bullets. Good try though, Sacman...

It's really odd - the old ones used to be everywhere - auto, hardware, electronics - peculiar that they became so universally extinct so suddenly.

[atom1025]

So I got everything hooked up but the hvc board. Going to try and explain this as best as I can. Can't post pics.

So I have Anderson connectors on the pack. Its a 15s2p. Three boards.

The "only" parallel connection is on the boards through the balance leads.

There's two positive outputs and two negative outputs. I want one set to go to controller and the other to charge with.

Does the main outputs have to be paralleled as well? I could see it being required for a amp hungry setup but I will average 20 amps with burst to 35.

I just don't want a bunch Anderson y harness in my box. I can make a jumper between the wires but that's ghetto.

[jonescg]

Just a thought - if these little guys draw so little current, are they susceptible to high voltage or high current interference? I mean, I'll have some serious voltages on my pack, so would the balance wires simply act like giant antennae and screw things up? There's not a lot of signal to noise in this environment...

[methods]

Just a thought - if these little guys draw so little current, are they susceptible to high voltage or high current interference? I mean, I'll have some serious voltages on my pack, so would the balance wires simply act like giant antennae and screw things up? There's not a lot of signal to noise in this environment...

Ok - I just got back. I have not seen your PM yet but I will get to them soon.

Here is the deal.... first off I can definitely support your large pack. Each board is good for 6 cells and you can hook as many in series as you like. I already have 2 customers running well over 350V for extreme motorcycle applications

btw: How are you soldering those big copper blocks without overheating the cell tabs? You getting any puffing?

anyway...
These boards do not suffer from the noise issues that many systems do because they are so simple and isolated. Each channel is nothing more than a single detector chip that drives an opto for HVC and an opto for LVC. I am talking simple... each channel attaches only to one cell - the fact that there are 6 on a board is arbitrary. So each channel has a single tiny detector that hooks up to the + and - of that cell. It then drives a pair of photo diodes - simple. The daisy chain section has galvanic isolation (not DC isolation, but AC and DC isolation) from the cell chain so you can make it as long as you need.

This system was developed for the TTXGP (thats why there are 8 JST taps) as were my three full BMS systems... which are WAY more noise sensitive than these boards and have not had false trigger LVC issues. These have a low quiescent current because they are of a good design, not because I am running large inline resistances. I can not absolutely grantee that you wont create noise that could cause an LVC glitch - but what I can say is that I have supported a bike at the TTXGP and there is no way those inspection guys could EVER test whether your LVC is actually connected to your throttle

SO - the rules are the rules right.
Nobody is currently offering anything simpler than this for HVC and LVC (that I know of)
I am 99% confident that you will never see a false LVC

I suggest you buy my boards and run them. If on your first run you think my boards are triggering LVC glitches on your throttle than just unplug the throttle tap. I would then of course offer you a 100% refund and I will pay the shipping. Fair?

Since these are ultra low power boards I would suggest building them into your pack - as close to the cells as possible - but if you must hang them out on a long antenna I guess that will work. There is nearly no current floating up those lines so they will be as good as a 4 wire measurement. I would be more worried about blowing out channels than having them false trigger.... My intuition is that for your pack (on a super long balance harness) I would want to strap each channel with a TVS diode... but that would kill the ultra low power status.

So yea - I am pretty confident that I can handle your application - but I am not super excited about your long balance tap idea.

We also have a 400V charge controller in the works - just have not had time to do any testing.

-methods

[methods]

So I got everything hooked up but the hvc board. Going to try and explain this as best as I can. Can't post pics.

So I have Anderson connectors on the pack. Its a 15s2p. Three boards.

The "only" parallel connection is on the boards through the balance leads.

There's two positive outputs and two negative outputs. I want one set to go to controller and the other to charge with.

NO! These high power connections MUST be connected at the ends of the pack - at a very minimum. Ideally they would be connected at each group of 5 cells, but connecting them at the end is fine. It is NOT ok to run the charger into one pair and the discharge into another.

Does the main outputs have to be paralleled as well? I could see it being required for a amp hungry setup but I will average 20 amps with burst to 35.

Ok - now that I have screamed above... yes... technically it will work but don't even think about doing it. Think about it bro - if you are discharging at 20A then 5Ah will be coming from one bank and 5Ah from the other right? How do you propose the 5Ah of energy get from one bank to the other? It could only go through the balance taps right? So if you are discharging at 20A that means that you will blow 10Ah in 30 minutes - so... in 30 minutes you will have to pull 5Ah through those taps - which means you will have to pull it at a rate of 10Ah right. So... that is not a good plan when all you have to do is solder two 10awg wires at either end of your pack - or make a clever little Y adapter.

I just don't want a bunch Anderson y harness in my box. I can make a jumper between the wires but that's ghetto.

-methods

[zukster]

HVC Breaker Board used as an LVC power cut-off from the battery pack to controller test ride went well.

Setup:

2 x 6S Zippy 4000 mAH Lipo Batteries from HobbyKing
2 x LVC boards
1 Breaker Board
Cute 100 Rear 201 rpm for 135mm drop out
KU63 15A Sensorless or Hall Sensor Controller. Good to about 15S/63V I think.

For this to work I wired the LVC 5V, signal, and ground from an LVC board (what you normally would wire into your throttle) to the Breaker Board LVC 5V, signal, and ground. In fact, it was pretty easy to modify one of the jumper cables Methods provided to do this. You can pop the pins out with a little flat jewelers screwdriver by pressing down the tabs that hold the pins in their slots. Then you can arrange them in the other slots so the 5V, signal, and ground all match up when you plug in the cable from the LVC to the Breaker board. Also for this to work you have to hook up the battery connections to the side of the Breaker board marked "Charger," because in this usage they are the "Source" of power, and then you hook up the "Battery" marked side of the board to your controller, because it is being fed the power. I think Methods said that his gut feeling was that it would work okay to something like 30 amps/100 volts this way., but that he hadn't tested it. With my BMSbattery.com KU63 controller, I'm only at 15 amps and 50.4 volts pack voltage max off the charger, so well under this estimate.

My test went well but use this idea at your own risk.

On the test bench the LVC triggered the Breaker board very accurately withing 0.1 volts of 3.0. With very little load, the battery cell that triggered it recovered to 3.05 after. Reset button worked fine to reset the board. On the road under heavy load, the breaker triggered as expected and the cell recovered to well over 3.20 volts. On the flats with a small load (a quarter throttle), the cell recovered to 3.15 volts after the Breaker was tripped. This is perfect. Thanks Method, for the well thought out thresholds you chose.

If I hit the breaker under a heavy load, I have the reset momentary button sticking out so I can reset and save a bit of juice for later if needed. My cell recovered to around 4.35 volts when I tested it under heavy load, so there's a bit of energy left in the pack that can still be used without killing the cells too bad. Like the last hill home or something

Here is a picture of my pretty little pack. What I like about this approach is that I can throw the pack into my trailer as a back up battery without having to wire a throttle cut-off cable all the way up to the controller. Or, I can build a second little pack that can be thrown in a back pack as a spare. When its time to switch, there is only the power cable to have to unplug and plug in again. For bikes that have the batteries attached full time, I don't see any reason for doing this as you just need the throttle retard cable.

[methods]

Nice write up. I always like to see someone hack something for their own purpose (though it makes me nervous as hell when it is my stuff they are hacking )

For the record - I do not suggest that anyone else try this. If you do, your fate is in your own hands. He is clearly a gangster... so tread lightly if you follow in his footsteps.

That said - it would be pretty easy too defeat the latching aspect of breaker so that it just comes back on when the HVC condition clears if you want.... By shorting a pin you can set it up so that the LVC opto just shorts out the zener diode that holds up the gate voltage for the fet. Currently, the circuit actually opens a relay to latch the condition - but that does not have to happen.

The HVC has a 1.2mS hysteresis but the LVC is pretty much instantaneous - so it is even possible that it might work like a "soft" limiter.

And stop driving your cells down to 3.0V
You are a bad man for doing this

-methods

[zukster]

though it makes me nervous as hell when it is my stuff they are hacking )

What was the number of your lawyer, just-in-case

And stop driving your cells down to 3.0V
You are a bad man for doing this

Bad boys, bad boys, watcha gonna do, watcha gonna do when they come for you I should be ashamed I need to go to a Lipo punishment jail cell (no pun intended).

Actually, I don't have a CA and I have a controller that I can't program the LVC, so it'll have to do. We'll see how the cells are in a few months.

[zukster]

That said - it would be pretty easy too defeat the latching aspect of breaker so that it just comes back on when the HVC condition clears if you want.... By shorting a pin you can set it up so that the LVC opto just shorts out the zener diode that holds up the gate voltage for the fet. Currently, the circuit actually opens a relay to latch the condition - but that does not have to happen.

You mean so you don't have to hit the reset button?

[atom1025]

Thanks Methods for the quick service, prompt response times, great advice and most of all thanks for going out of your way to make these available to us meatheads.

Everything is hooked up and running great!

Adam

PS Yes I paralleled the main leads.

[jonescg]

btw: How are you soldering those big copper blocks without overheating the cell tabs? You getting any puffing?
-methods

With two 80 W red-hot soldering irons dumping heat into the block and having lots of pressure from above to ensure a good connection is made. Then when it's settled I dab a sponge in ice water onto the copper to take the last of the back heat out. My pre-build thread has some video. In my opinion, this is the only way to draw high currents from LiPo. When you think about it - the tab is the bit that gets hot under high discharge. Where can that heat get sunk to? Without a good lump of copper, that heat will go straight back into the cell, which is not good. Also, since this will be sealed in a box, it won't get a chance to cool down. So over-specing is the only way to ensure nothing gets hot.

No puffing, no changes in performance to date (I haven't done heavy discharge testing yet - a 10 kW kettle is hard to make you know!) but a dead short across a 1s3p setup has no difficulty drawing 350 amps, and everything is still ice cold.

[jonescg]

OK three last questions before I part with my money (>$50 x 36 = $1800 )

1.
Is it possible to mix and match 6s, 5s and 4s units? Remember, I'm not doing any of that parallel harness crap. I have 6 blocks of 13s and 6 blocks of 15s. The 3 of the 5s guys would work fine for the 15s blocks, but I would need to use some combination of 5s units and a 4s for the other blocks.

2.
Why are there 7 wire pigtails being used to daisychain the boards together? If the boards are to be joined in series, wouldn't you just need one loop of a single strand? I'm not getting this bit.

3.
I don't want a throttle retard (I'm already one of them). I want it to simply sound a buzzer or illuminate an LED. Can this be done?

Oh, why not, I'll throw another question in while I'm at it If I pay you and your lackey enough, will you do a run of 13s and 15s boards?

[methods]

Yes - when a cell is below 3.0V it will cut your discharge current by opening the fet. When the cell floats back up, it will allow you to go again. No latching.

-methods

That said - it would be pretty easy too defeat the latching aspect of breaker so that it just comes back on when the HVC condition clears if you want.... By shorting a pin you can set it up so that the LVC opto just shorts out the zener diode that holds up the gate voltage for the fet. Currently, the circuit actually opens a relay to latch the condition - but that does not have to happen.

You mean so you don't have to hit the reset button?

[zukster]

Yes - when a cell is below 3.0V it will cut your discharge current by opening the fet. When the cell floats back up, it will allow you to go again. No latching.

Good to know but I prefer the reset button. I'm going to use a bunch of your breaker boards for speed control battery cut-offs for electric wheelchairs for the special needs senior citizens group in my area. I wouldn't want the power circuit kicking back in again once they got going to fast. Getting nervous yet?

Seriously though, for my Son's ebike, if I use the breaker board method to cut off power under LVC, I'd rather the power stay off once its latched.

[methods]

OK three last questions before I part with my money (>$50 x 36 = $1800 )

1.
Is it possible to mix and match 6s, 5s and 4s units? Remember, I'm not doing any of that parallel harness crap. I have 6 blocks of 13s and 6 blocks of 15s. The 3 of the 5s guys would work fine for the 15s blocks, but I would need to use some combination of 5s units and a 4s for the other blocks.

We can do a custom run for you. Since you don't need all the JST-XH-7 headers, we can work out a cheaper assembly method for yours. If you want to solder directly to the boards (i.e. no headers and no JST at all) I can probably drop the price significantly as that is quite a bit of the labor of 36 boards.

2.
Why are there 7 wire pigtails being used to daisychain the boards together? If the boards are to be joined in series, wouldn't you just need one loop of a single strand? I'm not getting this bit.

First, they are 6 wire jumpers, not 7 wires. 3 of the wires are for HVC. 3 of the wires are for LVC.

LVC_Ground
LVC_Signal
LVC_5V

Normally you would only have LVC_Ground and LVC_Signal for an open collector output right? Well these are special high-sensitivity (aka low power) optocouplers that have a darlington pair on the output. This means that by supplying an external 5V you can greatly improve the sensitivity and performance. Since most people are tying into the throttle, 5V, Signal, and Ground are already available and it plugs right in.

HVC_Ground
HVC_Signal
HVC_5V

This is a totally isolated set of signals. There is no electrical connection between the HVC set and the LVC set - total isolation. There is also total isolation between the LVC/HVC and the pack - total isolation.

So when you speak of a single strand of wire.... how would this work?
Typically the way a system like this works (on nearly all instruments) is that the boards sit OPEN all the time. They are all OPEN and hooked in parallel. If any one board gets triggered, it goes CLOSED and now the circuit conducts.

The absolute minimum that could be used here would be 2 strands of wire, right? One that is ground and one that is signal.

BUT - then your HVC and your LVC would be tied electrically. Since the LVC directly ties into the throttle signals it would be a problem for those who want to do custom stuff with the HVC

So - by your logic I could have used 4 wires in the daisy chains.... but that would lower sensitivity.

Regardless - I would have made them in 6 pin anyway because I already have to buy those in bulk for Balance Jumpers - so it makes more sense to stock a large quantity of one type of cable than smaller quantities of different cables.



3.
I don't want a throttle retard (I'm already one of them). I want it to simply sound a buzzer or illuminate an LED. Can this be done?

Absolutely.

Oh, why not, I'll throw another question in while I'm at it If I pay you and your lackey enough, will you do a run of 13s and 15s boards?

You dont have enough money for that bigshot. I would have to come up with a layout, do the layout, produce the PCB's, populate them, test them.... so you would be spending the same amount ++ hours of my time ++ a PCB run. I am guessing that you dont know that it is the same price to do a PCB run of 3 boards as it is to do a run of 90 boards... so for us to do a run for you the PCB's alone would probably be an extra $300 - $500. My time? Priceless. Say I only charge you for 5 hours, that is another $500. Realistically there is all kinds of hidden bullshit in there that people never consider - including the risk that I make a mistake in the layout, delays with the manufacturer, tooling up to test your unique setup, etc.

Maybe one day....

[dougnutz]

Yes - when a cell is below 3.0V it will cut your discharge current by opening the fet. When the cell floats back up, it will allow you to go again. No latching.

Good to know but I prefer the reset button. I'm going to use a bunch of your breaker boards for speed control battery cut-offs for electric wheelchairs for the special needs senior citizens group in my area. I wouldn't want the power circuit kicking back in again once they got going to fast. Getting nervous yet?

Seriously though, for my Son's ebike, if I use the breaker board method to cut off power under LVC, I'd rather the power stay off once its latched.

Are you are using Lipo of wheelchairs?

[zukster]

Are you are using Lipo of wheelchairs?

I'm just trying to get a rise out of Method's by dreaming up strange new ways to misuse his breaker board.

[dougnutz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvRFb7-F0A

[jonescg]

OK three last questions before I part with my money (>$50 x 36 = $1800 )

1.
Is it possible to mix and match 6s, 5s and 4s units? Remember, I'm not doing any of that parallel harness crap. I have 6 blocks of 13s and 6 blocks of 15s. The 3 of the 5s guys would work fine for the 15s blocks, but I would need to use some combination of 5s units and a 4s for the other blocks.

We can do a custom run for you. Since you don't need all the JST-XH-7 headers, we can work out a cheaper assembly method for yours. If you want to solder directly to the boards (i.e. no headers and no JST at all) I can probably drop the price significantly as that is quite a bit of the labor of 36 boards.

Awesome. Cause all 8 of those things take up a lot of space. As long as it fits inside a 40 mm by 50 mm square, I can make it work for a block. It might be prudent to connectorize the cell-board wiring because soldering to the copper blocks takes a bit of careful planning followed by 200 W brute thermal force.

2.
Why are there 7 wire pigtails being used to daisychain the boards together? If the boards are to be joined in series, wouldn't you just need one loop of a single strand? I'm not getting this bit.

First, they are 6 wire jumpers, not 7 wires. 3 of the wires are for HVC. 3 of the wires are for LVC.

LVC_Ground
LVC_Signal
LVC_5V

Normally you would only have LVC_Ground and LVC_Signal for an open collector output right? Well these are special high-sensitivity (aka low power) optocouplers that have a darlington pair on the output. This means that by supplying an external 5V you can greatly improve the sensitivity and performance. Since most people are tying into the throttle, 5V, Signal, and Ground are already available and it plugs right in.

HVC_Ground
HVC_Signal
HVC_5V

This is a totally isolated set of signals. There is no electrical connection between the HVC set and the LVC set - total isolation. There is also total isolation between the LVC/HVC and the pack - total isolation.

So when you speak of a single strand of wire.... how would this work?
Typically the way a system like this works (on nearly all instruments) is that the boards sit OPEN all the time. They are all OPEN and hooked in parallel. If any one board gets triggered, it goes CLOSED and now the circuit conducts.

The absolute minimum that could be used here would be 2 strands of wire, right? One that is ground and one that is signal.

BUT - then your HVC and your LVC would be tied electrically. Since the LVC directly ties into the throttle signals it would be a problem for those who want to do custom stuff with the HVC

So - by your logic I could have used 4 wires in the daisy chains.... but that would lower sensitivity.

Regardless - I would have made them in 6 pin anyway because I already have to buy those in bulk for Balance Jumpers - so it makes more sense to stock a large quantity of one type of cable than smaller quantities of different cables.



OK I think I get how it works. The single wire idea I was referring to was an NC loop on a SPST relay or the like, so when that single loop goes open circuit, the relay trips and sounds an alarm. Rod Dilkes BMS uses this daisy chain system http://ev-power.com.au/IMG/pdf/EVPower_CM_datasheet.pdf

3.
I don't want a throttle retard (I'm already one of them). I want it to simply sound a buzzer or illuminate an LED. Can this be done?

Absolutely.

Oh, why not, I'll throw another question in while I'm at it If I pay you and your lackey enough, will you do a run of 13s and 15s boards?

You dont have enough money for that bigshot. I would have to come up with a layout, do the layout, produce the PCB's, populate them, test them.... so you would be spending the same amount ++ hours of my time ++ a PCB run. I am guessing that you dont know that it is the same price to do a PCB run of 3 boards as it is to do a run of 90 boards... so for us to do a run for you the PCB's alone would probably be an extra $300 - $500. My time? Priceless. Say I only charge you for 5 hours, that is another $500. Realistically there is all kinds of hidden bullshit in there that people never consider - including the risk that I make a mistake in the layout, delays with the manufacturer, tooling up to test your unique setup, etc.

Maybe one day....

Yeah fair enough. However in my case it's more like Phillip J Fry:
You'd be wasting your time.

Yeah well my time is worthless!

[chroot]

Any update for 4s hardcase LVC boards?

[zukster]

Are you checking your email? I was requesting some more boards if available.

[methods]

Yea... I am totally behind on PM's and Emails.
I am in the middle of dismantling my life to transform myself into an international man of mystery... this being the case... every once in a while I have to focus only on shipping to people who have already paid and supporting existing customers. Just cant take on any new work or money

Right now I am doing my taxes - and as soon as I am done (in a few hours) I will catch up on all the orders and pre-sales questions. We are good on stock - so I can probably ship as soon as I receive payment for most folks.

As afar as 4S boards - no, no work has been done.

Our newest product is a system that wirelessly monitors motor temperature and retards throttle based on a predictive algorithm - so that is what we will be working on for the next couple of months. After that, we may come back for the 4S packs.

-methods

[chroot]

4S lvc boards. Hey that's awesome and Let me know when it available. I will need 8.