Full-Suspension Semi Recumbent Cargo Bike - NuVinci MidDrive

[amberwolf]

I'd still be interested in what you would do to lighten it up, given my limitations.


The thing with the cargo is that very occasionally I run into the chance to get 5-10 40lb bags of dog food for next to nothing for various reasons (someone's dog wouldn't eat it (or died) so they're giving it away, clearance because it's about to expire, discontinued products, etc.), and it's usually critical to be able to carry it all in one load, or miss out on some of it. If it's at my work, I can buy all of it, hold it in the warehouse, and just come back for it in several loads, but at other places it's unlikely I'll be able to do that.

I also sometimes run into various junk items on Freecycle and thru friends that if I could haul them, I could get them for free...while I'm already out picking something else up, the person I'm picking up from says "oh, BTW, I've got X that you could probably use--do you want ot take it with you, too?". Well, if I didn't plan on that, I probably won't have room to take it...so being able to carry it on the bike itself would be really good.

I'm hoping to make the entire cargo rack detachable, bolt-on, with a lighter aluminum rack made of a couple of folding cots for the "commuter" cargo rack that can carry all my normal loads to bolt on in it's place.

But that wheel-breaking problem happens even with no loads sometimes, when I run into potholes I can't avoid because of traffic conditions. Rare, but it usually takes out several spokes at a time, and damages the rim, when it does happen. So the dirtbike wheel I know will not havea problem with that.

[geetarboy]

Nice creative project Amberwolf, If you're going to be hauling several hundred pounds of cargo, a few extra pounds on the bike itself shouldn't make too much of a difference. It's a very good idea going w/ the motorcycle wheels. You'll just have to carry more batteries to move them.

[amberwolf]

Fortunately the bike should be capable of carrying a fair bit of battery inside the frame itself, including the front triangle (which I hope to make into a cargo pod itself).

I'm still trying to do what I can to shave weight, but without good light cromoly to build it all from, some of it is going to be heavy (like the cargo frame) because of the junky steel I found to build it from.

At least I'm not having to run SLA anymore.

The one big remaining issue wth the MC wheel is the huge knobby tire, which I'm going to ahve to deal with one way or another. One option is to cut off the knobs, which I don't really want to do. The other is to find someone that wants a knobby and trade them for a road tire or slick.

[amberwolf]

Speaking of weight, crossposting this from another discussion (about someone's question on whether to go cromoly or composite):

My entire CroMo race bike frame was around 6lbs. This means, even if your composite frame ended up magically being weightless, you've still only got a maximum 6lbs of weight savings on the table, which is a lot on a pedal bike, but scarcely noticed on an ebike IMHO.

Yes. The whole frame for my new bike (not counting still-to-be-fabricated swingarm)



is only 10lbs, and it is mostly (possibly all, but I don't knwo for sure on anything but the Trek parts) Cromoly


and 1lb of that is the BB and bearings and cups.


The NuVinci hub that'll go in it weighs 8lbs


and the 9C/GM hub that may eventually drive it is 16lbs (couldn't take the pic while holding it up, sorry), including the giant disc rotor for CrazyBike2's front wheel bolted to the other side.



The battery to power it is 18lbs, IIRC, for the 48V "20Ah" (12Ah, really) LiFePO4 pack or 45ish lbs for the 32V 60Ah TS pack.

So *each* of it's major ebike components weighs at least as much as the frame itself, and most weigh at least twice as much. That's leaving out little things like wheels, front fork, handlebars/bearings/hardware and steering tie rod, seat, etc.


Personally, I'll go for steel over alloy or composites anytime for something like a bike frame. If I were to do composites, I'd do what John in CR is talking about. (and I have a nifty-looking body idea for this bike if I had the money for the CF and stuff to do it, but it would go over the existing frame. )

[amberwolf]

What might end up as one extreme-power motor for testing this bike out is now officially operational using an ebike controller; this powerchair motor:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 35#p504935



Now I have to test teh motor itself out probably on CrazyBIke2 thru the pedal chain, but gotta build a mount to do that first.

[amberwolf]

Santa listened when I said I needed MC road slicks...but I must've forgotten to ask for a specific size, because these are a bit too small:

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A Dunlop 17", a Michelin 17", and a Pirelli 16". All are well-used, but easily have enough life to last me thousands of miles on a bicycle. Heck, I think the sidewalls are strong/stiff enough that I could ride on them without even airing them up!


But they wont' fit the rims I have (19" or 18") from the Suzuki. So I have tires now, but no wheels to put them on.

Two fo them are pretty wide, the Pirelli and I think it was the Dunlop; I think the Michelin is narrower by an inch or more. One of them (the Dunlop?) is at least twice as heavy as either of the others, I think, though I've weighed none of them (just by feel).


So now I will have to remember to ask Santa for a 16" wheel becuase the Pirelli looks like a nice tire, and a 17" because the narrower one would be pretty useful to have on there for less weight and for making it easier to fit on the bike for chain and stuff to pass next to it. Also have to find out what BCD the disc brake rotors I have are, to make sure the smaller wheels can still take the same 4-bolt rotors, unless they come with their own.



(they actually came from a friend, whose mechanic friend found them abandoned in his shop's parking lot, and didn't want to have to pay to dispose of them, I think...but free is free and I'll take what I can get, and figure out a way to adapt stuff to use it!)

[johnrobholmes]

What size is marked on the tires? I have some 1.4" 17" and 16" rims here that could work, and I could send for the cause. Seems like between 12 and 10ga (2.6 and 3.2mm) on the rear of the bike would be good for your gross weight.

[amberwolf]

What size is marked on the tires? I have some 1.4" 17" and 16" rims here that could work, and I could send for the cause. Seems like between 12 and 10ga (2.6 and 3.2mm) on the rear of the bike would be good for your gross weight.

I've put *all* of the info molded into the tires at the end of the post, but the parts I think are what you need are here:

PIRELLI: Diablo Strada
Tubeless Radial 1257
180/55 ZR17 M/C (73W)

DUNLOP: K555
Tubeless Radial 6707
170/70 B16 M/C 75H

MICHELIN: Pilot Road
Tubeless Radial
150/70 ZR17 M/C 75R

I can hand measure anything that would be helpful, if necessary.


For rim bead width, I'm not sure anything less than 3" wide would work, as wide as these tires are at the bead, but maybe they would squeeze together far enough to fit (I am not sure I am strong enough to do ti myself, though, so would have to have a friend or two help).

The Michelin is the narrowest tire, and the Dunlop is the smallest diameter. The Pirelli is largest overall. I need to weigh them, at least to get relative weights.


I don't know what spokes are in the Suzuki disc-compatible hubs; they look like they'd be maybe 10g compared to the bike spokes I have that I knwo the gauges of. I can measure their thickness if you like, as well as whatever dimensions of the hubs themselves would be needed to get correct spoke lengths...but these are MC spokes/hubs; not sure if what you are mentioning is MC or bicycle types.


All of the tires say rear wheel only; here's the rest of the data on them.

PIRELLI: Diablo Strada
Tubeless Radial 1257
Made in Germany
180/55 ZR17 M/C (73W)
501/K142
E3 75R-0053918
DOT EB PT F276 0309
Tread 1PL Rayon 1PL Steel
Sidewall 1PL Rayon
Max Load 365kg (805lbs)
at 290kPa (42psi) cold L.R.B.


DUNLOP: K555
Tubeless Radial 6707
Made in Japan
Sumitomo Rubber Company
170/70 B16 M/C 75H
DOT-EUBV
HA2M3708
Load Range B
Tread 5Plies - 3 Nylon 2 Aramid
Sidewall 3 Plies - 3 Nylon
Max Load 387kg (853lbs)
at 280kPa (41psi) cold


MICHELIN: Pilot Road
Tubeless Radial
Made in France
150/70 ZR17 M/C 75R
TAA 466
35-1266-01
E2 75R-006541
H115
DOT 6UDN 887T 0607
Tread 1 Aramid 1 Polyester
Sidewall 2 Polyester
Canada & US codes only
Max load 325kG (711lbs)
at 290kPa (42psi) cold


I did some googling on prices, and these things are expensive! The cheapest was the Pirelli, at $100-$150 but that' sonly because it's discontinued, apparently. The other two go from $200-300! Glad I didn't have to buy these new!

[amberwolf]

Ok, I surrendered. Thanks to a generous anonymous member and a 1/3-off sale at Harbor Freight, I have a working welder. I will add pics to this thread of it as soon as I figure out why the card slot in the PC isn't working. Probably dog hair.

EDIT: yeah, dog hair. Pics now added.

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I tried to find anyone local selling a *good* wire-feed welder that could be used with flux-core wire within the limits of the donation, but haven't been able to, except a couple I'm absolutely sure would have to be stolen for that price, given their condition and the shadiness of the people offering them. So I passed them up despite the incredible deal...I'd rather just not deal with that kind of potential problem, and I don't want to support thieves.

Anyway, it's a low-end MIG capable model,
http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/mi ... 94164.html
but I don't have any bottles for it. (well, actually if it can use just CO2 I have some old paintball gear someone gave me, that include a couple of partial bottles, but I don't know if I have the right valve stuff to use them or not--nothing comes iwth the welder).

DSC05909.JPG (67.1 KiB) Viewed 1386 times

But it also still uses flux-core wire I already have from the previous always-breaking welder, and comes iwth a roll, too.

One little issue is it is a 230V model, and I have no outdoor 230V outlets, so I kinda had to hack one in, using the stove/dryer breakers/etc. since I won't be using those at the same time as welding anyway. I'll work on a better more permanent solution if I can ever find a salvaged expansion panel I can mount up and wire in properly, to stick the outlet and breakers just for this into. Till then, this will have to do.

I used 10AWG 300V 3-conducter wire a friend had donated to me a while back, that was already meant for 230V, with a 250V/30A twist plug at one end and a custom plug for a rack enclosure supply at the other.

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Had to change the plug at the welder end to some that I had both male and female for (since the welder comes with just bare input wires), so I ended up with just a 250V/15A plug on there. Good enough for the low-power welding I am mostly going to do.


Tested it out on various things, like a scrapped seatpost, and it works much better than the other one did even at the beginning. I can just about control the weld with it, though I obviously need to practice more.

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I tested it on all four settings,

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and at the highest I could use it to cut metal with, if I had to--it just burns right thru the seatpost like a torch.

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I actually had burned thru about 3" of that line, but I went back and practiced closing up the burn thru holes at the lowest setting. That's something I just about could never do with the old welder, so there's another improvement.

One nice thing is that at the levels I'll mostly use it at, it is 100% duty cycle, so I don't have to weld half an inch and then wait what feels like an hour (10 minutes, really) to continue. Had to do that with the old one even when I added fan cooling to it. This one already has fan cooling, too.


Later I will see about getting some *good* fluxcore wire from a welding shop, and figure out what I need to get for gas stuff for the MIG part. I dunno if I can afford to refill it and such (haven't checked prices yet), but I am sure I could do better welds with it that way.


Anyhow, now I can get back to this project, FINALLY.

[amberwolf]

Oh, and I found some fairly useful tutorials for MIG welding, (useful for wire-feed welding in general, actually), including this one here:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/tutorial.htm
that has a bunch of subsections for various things.

One interesting thing I had never heard of is MIG Brazing:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/brazing.htm

This has some possibly serious uses with thin cromoly bike frames.


I do also now have a cheap propane torch head that theoretically can be used for brazing, but I tried it out with a regular camping gas propane bottle and my vagueish memories of propane and acetylene torch usage from high school shop class 20+ years ago and could not melt off brazed-on lugs and whatnot from an old ten-speed frame. So either I'm doing it wrong or I don't have the right tip to do it. Or the gas isn't burning hot enough (which I doubt).

If it's the gas, well, maybe I could make a mixed oxy-propane torch, as I have a couple of old but probably still-full medical oxygen bottles from back when my mom was still around. Most likely I would blow myself up with this so I will not likely try.

[GITech]

Awesome amberwolf! I'll be watching to see how you bring all this "junk" together into a beautiful and functioning beast of an ebike.

All these custom rear suspensions, I love it!

later,
Jay

[boppinbob]

Amberwolf, there is no doubt in my mind that you could be hired straight away as a vehicle designer for the Mad Max sets if they ever revived that movie franchise.

[Harold in CR]

CO2 works fine with a Miller Mig welder. That's what we used when we built the wind generator towers. The Propane torch will use a larger orifice tip using the Propane tank along with the Oxygen tank. We used that also. It's just not as hot as Acetylene. Should work fine for brazing and removing brazed on stuff.

[Glenn_M]

Great to see the progress Amber!
Keep it coming - loving the build

Glenn

[amberwolf]

I'm still working on some experimental ideas for this build over on the CrazyBIke2 build, including clamping dropouts, which will probably be used to hold the hubmotor in place on a rear direct drive, to test it first this way with the otherwise-completed bike, before I change over to the middrive with the same motor, but using a regular bike wheel still for the back wheel.

That will let me see the differences in efficiency between the two methods before I then change to the powerchair brushless motor, which I can probably get a lot more power out of, and the motorcycle wheel, which shouldn't have problems with breakage from heavy loads.


Also still being tested on CB2 is the front-converted-to-rear motor itself, which so far is working fine this way.

The only huge issue I am still having is flats and bent rims. The flats are a new problem with the motor wheel, which had been reliable about that until recently, and now has had a spate of various types of flats, including valve stem failures.

[amberwolf]

Since CrazyBike2 has some major failures in the last couple weeks or so, I have decided I must step this one up, before I must retire CB2 from regular use (before it kills me).
viewtopic.php?p=619387#p619387

I will probalby just make a quickie rear swingarm from bicycle stuff first, and use a hubmotor (rear) just to get it going. Then after I have worked out all the rideability bugs I can work on the rest of the "real" drivetrain for it, and all the added amenities.

[amberwolf]

I think I missed posting some details about the swingarm/pivot/jackshaft stuff, so here's some thoughts from another thread:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 46#p670346


The NV has an "adapter" on the shifter-rod end of the axle, mostly to hold the shifter rod in place while it forces the mechanism inside to move as it's worm gear is turned. But it also enables another possibility: using similar adapters on *both* ends of the axle to let bearings ride on them for the swingarm pivot, and secure the axle to whatever pivot-point/dropout I make for it.

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It just needs to have these machined so they can thread onto the existing axle, as the present rightside adapter does, but with an outer diameter that fits the bearings you choose:

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In my case the swingarm itself would bolt together as an "H", with the joining bar almost all the way up the "verticals", almost at the pivot point itself.


The side pieces (arms themselves) could be the aluminum ones off that Suzuki dirtbike:
download/file.php?id=70614
minus the darker-colored greasy "H" that's very heavy.


And the new "H" made from these pieces of old treadmill frame:

viewtopic.php?p=456068#p456068

with a shock pivot so I can still use this:


Someone has already used these same arms on a bike:

although they butchered up the ends to fit the existing bike pivot and axle, and I will be using the existing ends to match the MC axle and tensioners., and the boltholes to connect the arms to the pivot point module (H).


You could use this same basic method to do this on any bike.[/quote]

[crossbreak]

looks like my dr 650 from the inside. it can carry so much i can sometimes not believe, and still goes well through the deepest mud guess we can still learn from these old machines. Some things are otherwise obsolete now like the torque dampers in your rear wheel. nice to see how your build comes together. I really hope your frame wont crack

[amberwolf]

What are the torque dampers? (sorry, I'm still pretty new to MC stuff).

AFAICR this is a Suzuki DR350, so not surprising it's similar to yours. I considered (still am, actually) using the actual Suzuki frame, cut into two sections and joined by whatever custom stuff I need to make it work with my seat and add pedals and whatnot.

I don't know if the frame I built will hold up or not. I think that once I get it fully welded, it will be stiffer and stronger than CrazyBike2, which held up for nearly 4000 miles before it broke the (now repaired) centerframe toptube during a sideways skid in an emergency stop.

I also think I could design the frame better for what I am doing iwth it, fi I build it from scratch, rather than from existing frames, but I want to test out my hacknslash before I go to that trouble.

The one thing I don't yet have that I would really like is some wheels that would fit those MC slicks I've got up above. If it comes down to it, I'll test it with the MC knobby on there, but if it rattles my bones like i expect, I might well have to cut the knobs off the tire to be able to use it on the streets.

[Cyclebutt]

Did you shut down for the winter? just wondering how this project is shaping up, interesting.

[amberwolf]

not really, I just get really busy this time of year with work, since in retail most places have much busier times (and give out more hours) thru the holiday season and sometimes for a while afterward. Now I'm doing a remodel of another store and am working wierd hours (for me) that add up to a 12-hour day away from home, sometimes more, and I'm wiped out when I get back.

I havent' even had enough time/energy last couple weeks to finish fixing CrazyBike2 (although I have made some attempts). Thus having had to ride Delta Tripper instead...which itself now has some fixing to do....

Too many projects, too little time, way way too little energy. Need a helper!

[amberwolf]

I am restarting on this project again; been gathering it's parts together most of today. Naturally some things have changed. I was going to do a "really quick" build that essentially duplicates Crazybike2, no rear suspension, but with Sachs 3speed IGH 24" wheel in the rear dropouts, and a brushed powerchair motor run by a Curtis golfcart controller, just because that is pretty simple to troubleshoot if something goes wrong on the road, and even if the controller dies I can still use the motor (difficult to control, but at least it's possible).


However, I cannot find the motors/gearboxes I originally used on CrazyBike2 and their hubs (which I did find) are different than the ones that go on the mtoors/gearboxes I do have at hand. I do have two complete powerchari wheels that go on those motors, but I would get a max of 16MPH out of them at 48V full throttle. They don't have separate hubs from the wheels, unlike the other ones.

I did also find the higher power higher torque four-pole motors and gearboxes, but cant' find the hubs that go on them (whcih are different than either of the others, of course). These are the mtors I'd rather use, cuz I know they can take the power better.


So, so much for a quick build. By the time I work out a solution to the hub problem, I could jsut as well work one out for mounting sprockets to the big brushless powerchair motor instead.


Not yet using the Nuvinci for it cuz I can't get to the box it's other parts are in (controller/shifter/etc) until I move half a room of stuff.

I also still have to finish the cargo rails part of the frame, and attach that to the bike itself, as the seat mounts to that part.

I did work out a clamp-on solution to add rim brakes to the white Suntour fork I got from Mdd0127; it's the best fork I have ever had, I think. But it is meant to be disc-only, and I only have crappy disc brakes, so I'd rather use rim, thus the hack.


I also ran across the old USS handlebars I'd made for my abandoned ReCycle lowracer bike, and I might use them as OSS bars on this build, as I don't yet have anymore cruiser bars like on the trike and CrazyBike2 that I can turn vertical and use for it.




(no pics yet cuz I accidentally washed the camera card a couple days or so ago and it is still in a bin of rice drying out).

[amberwolf]

I found one of the old 300W-ish motors with sprocket bolted to it's hub, I think it might be the second one I used on CB2. But it was too late to do more work on the bike; getting dark outside then and I gotta get up way early (4am) to be sure I can make it to work by 7am at the next remodel store. So I finished up some work on Delta Tripper for that, and made sure it all still works and rides ok.

Guess we'll see what happens with this bike on Tuesday, next day off. (maybe get to do some on Monday after work but probably not).

[amberwolf]

camera cadr dried out, world got wet instead, so no new work (cuz i need to do the work outside and cant' in the rain, and cuz it makes my hands and whatnot too hurty to manipulate tools with any strength). But i dohave some pics at least f the diy rim brake monut:

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[amberwolf]

It may be a while before I do much with this or anything else.

There was a fire at my house today while I was not home.