How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

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Re: Brushless Motor Controller repair

Postby august23 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:03 pm

I am interested in doing self repair on MAC and BMC motors w/internal controllers. I would also like to know how to bypass the internal controller. I believe I could probably figure it out on my own, but some literature could save me some serious time. schematics, instructions, howtos.... anything. can anyone help? or at the very least direct me to someone local who can help?
thankyou very much!
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Re: Brushless Motor Controller repair

Postby DAND214 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:28 pm

I am interested in doing self repair on MAC and BMC motors w/internal controllers.

Are you sure they have internal controllers? I have both and they don't. I think you need to do some more resurch.

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Re: Brushless Motor Controller repair

Postby august23 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:35 am

lol yes im sure. are you sure dan? anyway, thank you for the help.
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Re: Brushless Motor Controller repair

Postby august23 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:59 am

here is one of the motors in question.
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-v ... -1318.html
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How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:07 pm

I am interested in doing self repair on MAC and BMC motors w/internal controllers. I would also like to know how to bypass the internal controller. I believe I could probably figure it out on my own, but some literature could save me some serious time. schematics, instructions, howtos.... anything. can anyone help? or at the very least direct me to someone local who can help?
thankyou very much!
august

example: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-v ... -1318.html
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How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:09 pm

I am interested in doing self repair on MAC and BMC motors w/internal controllers. I would also like to know how to bypass the internal controller. I believe I could probably figure it out on my own, but some literature could save me some serious time. schematics, instructions, howtos.... anything. can anyone help? or at the very least direct me to someone local who can help?
thankyou very much!
august
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-v ... -1318.html
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby Kin » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:29 am

I'll be honest, your post doesn't make any sense to me.

Not sure what bypass controller means. Do you mean increase the power it puts out? That can be done, at risk of damaging it.
Bypass the controller, and apply voltage? On the MAC/BMC motors as far as I'm aware they're all brushless. That's a problem; you can't just apply DC to them.


Yeah, but, try to write out

1) What you're trying to do
2) What you already know
3) what ideas you have.

Your post really didnt make sense.
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby Kin » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:33 am

I read one of your other posts that made some more sense to me.

So you know the small silver box that the motor originally connects? That is the controller. Its not an internal one.

It is brushed though, so applying a DC power source will make the motor spin. Maybe thats why you think there is an internal controller.

You can usually quite easily connect these to a replacement brushed motor controller. It should run $30-40 dollars on most of these replacement websites, though they're not too complicated.


I'm talking about something that looks like the silver box next to the motor in the link I'm showing:
http://www.thesuperkids.com/600wabrcuels.html

But the link is absolutely just the first thing I found. Might not apply at all to your situation, except that your controller will almost certainly look the same.
New to endless-sphere? Notice a lot of signatures recommending Ebike.ca? That's because it's the best place for a quality and manageable, (but still 'real'), first build. Justin is a solid supporter of electric bike development, and a good source of equipment.

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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:08 am

Ok I can see how it might not make sense. you would have to know more about the motors in question. the motors I am referring to are a line of brushless motors from BMC (http://bmcus.com/bldc.htm) and MAC(http://www.macmc.com/macbmchome.htm) that have the controllers built in. I am aware of the external stepping controllers you are referring to for brushed motors as I have 5 different ones w/different configs. These motors are NOT the same. you only need power and a 5k ohm Pot to operate these MAC/BMC ones. and I do understand that MAC/BMC do make motors with/for external controllers (obviously)... and brushed motors too. but never mind all those other ones.....

What I have learned is that several of these motors (specifically the 24v 600w MAC motor) have been designed around much higher specs, but used downsized controllers in them instead for whatever reason (probably quality control). If you look at this page (http://www.thesuperkids.com/600wahspsuto.html) what you are actually seeing is this product (http://www.thesuperkids.com/600wasutocum.html) which has been factory by passed and relabeled as a 1000w brushless and controllerless motor, paired up with a custom 3rd party controller. I confirmed this with superkids personally. The controller they are selling comes from this company (http://www.crystalyte.com/Control.htm) which are designed for wheel hub bike motors (brushless again of course).

What I would like to do is to basically copy what superkids are doing (http://www.thesuperkids.com/600wahspsuto.html). Why? I have access to a bunch of these motors with burned out internal controllers... AND why repair them when I can 'upgrade' them by bypassing the burned out (presumably) internal controllers and rewiring them for one of these external controllers (http://www.crystalyte.com/Control.htm).

from what I have gathered on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_ ... tric_motor), these are sensorless motors (non hall-effect). but aside from having taken several electronics classes in highschool and collage and some educated guessing, I dont really know where to start with out schematics or something. I'm going to take apart one of these to see what I am looking at. I did find another post of someone trying to do this but its a little old and not very useful.(http://visforvoltage.org/forum/8729-nee ... ment-63997). I might just be able to repair it... which would certainly be cheaper.... but easier? not sure yet.

does this clear it up a bit?
Thanks again
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby Kin » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:39 am

It does! I am happy that what you're doing sounds like a possibility. In the few threads I saw some stuff about brushed motors, and thought you were very confused.

For what its worth, I think this might depend in part on how to take apart the motor safely. You should have wires going into the motor if has an internal controller, and if you follow those, presumably you will get to an internal controller. There's a chance it's epoxied in, which will be hard to deal with. But if you're lucky you will simply be able to remove the internal controller. The internal controller will still work the same way, and have three wires go to the motor. Those might need to be extended, but if you extend them out of the motor with new longer wires [use thick gauge for these 'phase wires'] and you'll be in a good position to wire up an external controller. I do not think there should be any problems with this, but I would search endless-sphere for some of the magic pie mods. I think if you can't find the mods for the BMC you speak of, you are likely to find some about Magic Pie, another company that sold internal and external controller motors. Plenty of people had their internal one blow, and had to replace it with an external one.
New to endless-sphere? Notice a lot of signatures recommending Ebike.ca? That's because it's the best place for a quality and manageable, (but still 'real'), first build. Justin is a solid supporter of electric bike development, and a good source of equipment.

My hat off a thousand times to the green people that effectively run this forum. The ES Mods are superb.
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby Ykick » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:50 am

Hello august23 person, you mentioned finding someone local but you offer no location? Good luck with your project!
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby fechter » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:41 am

You might find this thread helpful:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11772

I bypassed the internal controller on my BMC long ago. It's not that hard but depending on how long they left the wires, soldering extensions can be challenging. With forced air cooling, I can run it at over 2kW.

Also keep in mind that not just any controller will work well with these motors due to the hall timing.
A sensorless controller avoids this problem and you don't need to worry about the hall wires, but finding a good sensorless controller is still difficult.
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:23 pm

fechter wrote:You might find this thread helpful:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11772

I bypassed the internal controller on my BMC long ago. It's not that hard but depending on how long they left the wires, soldering extensions can be challenging. With forced air cooling, I can run it at over 2kW.

Also keep in mind that not just any controller will work well with these motors due to the hall timing.
A sensorless controller avoids this problem and you don't need to worry about the hall wires, but finding a good sensorless controller is still difficult.


ah so these ARE hallsensored motors? that might explain why I see more than 5 wires in the pic of the already by passed 600w MAC motor. Thank you!!!!
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:24 pm

Ykick wrote:Hello august23 person, you mentioned finding someone local but you offer no location? Good luck with your project!


Oh! oops
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:27 pm

Kin wrote:It does! I am happy that what you're doing sounds like a possibility. In the few threads I saw some stuff about brushed motors, and thought you were very confused.

For what its worth, I think this might depend in part on how to take apart the motor safely. You should have wires going into the motor if has an internal controller, and if you follow those, presumably you will get to an internal controller. There's a chance it's epoxied in, which will be hard to deal with. But if you're lucky you will simply be able to remove the internal controller. The internal controller will still work the same way, and have three wires go to the motor. Those might need to be extended, but if you extend them out of the motor with new longer wires [use thick gauge for these 'phase wires'] and you'll be in a good position to wire up an external controller. I do not think there should be any problems with this, but I would search endless-sphere for some of the magic pie mods. I think if you can't find the mods for the BMC you speak of, you are likely to find some about Magic Pie, another company that sold internal and external controller motors. Plenty of people had their internal one blow, and had to replace it with an external one.


that is very helpful!!! thankyou. I'll def look into magic pie (first I have heard of them/it)
thank you again.

re repair: any tips to diagnosing internal controllers?
re bypass: any tips for knowing which phase lead is which?
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:29 pm

fechter wrote:You might find this thread helpful:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11772

I bypassed the internal controller on my BMC long ago. It's not that hard but depending on how long they left the wires, soldering extensions can be challenging. With forced air cooling, I can run it at over 2kW.

Also keep in mind that not just any controller will work well with these motors due to the hall timing.
A sensorless controller avoids this problem and you don't need to worry about the hall wires, but finding a good sensorless controller is still difficult.


I looked hard and long for a page just like that... what key words did you use? excellent find!!!! thanx
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:42 pm

fechter wrote:You might find this thread helpful:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11772

I bypassed the internal controller on my BMC long ago. It's not that hard but depending on how long they left the wires, soldering extensions can be challenging. With forced air cooling, I can run it at over 2kW.

Also keep in mind that not just any controller will work well with these motors due to the hall timing.
A sensorless controller avoids this problem and you don't need to worry about the hall wires, but finding a good sensorless controller is still difficult.



you the man!!!!
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby Kin » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:54 pm

I think he might not have needed to use keywords :). That was his thread; he was the one who replaced his internal controller.

I don't know if you tried google, but often that helps find things better than the forum search engine. google "blah blah blah endless-sphere.com" (without quotes) and you typically get better results.
New to endless-sphere? Notice a lot of signatures recommending Ebike.ca? That's because it's the best place for a quality and manageable, (but still 'real'), first build. Justin is a solid supporter of electric bike development, and a good source of equipment.

My hat off a thousand times to the green people that effectively run this forum. The ES Mods are superb.
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby fechter » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:57 pm

Actually, I tried using the forum's search function knowing the thread was there. It did not find it. Forum search sucks. I found it by exercising the few remaining brain cells and remembered where I put it originally.
The Google domain search is much more effective.
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:00 pm

I should have figured that out. ah I assumed the search function on here was sufficient. and in case you didn't know: the easiest way to seach a domain on google is like this:

site:endless-sphere.com keyword1 keyword2

example:
site:endless-sphere.com (this would show every page index google has on the site)
site:endless-sphere.com BMC bypass (this would show everypage that has BOTH key words in it. (About 234 results))

thanks folks!
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:04 pm

fechter wrote:Actually, I tried using the forum's search function knowing the thread was there. It did not find it. Forum search sucks. I found it by exercising the few remaining brain cells and remembered where I put it originally.
The Google domain search is much more effective.



fletch you have been busy:
https://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl ... 4l7.7l14l0
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby friedwires » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:49 pm

i boiled the controllers out of the ones i've done viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17404 viewtopic.php?f=28&t=32059 i need to update my mongoose thread, the bike is a little monster!
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:40 pm

friedwires wrote:i boiled the controllers out of the ones i've done viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17404 viewtopic.php?f=28&t=32059 i need to update my mongoose thread, the bike is a little monster!


yeah I saw that on some other thread.. but it wasn't as complete as these 2. from what I can tell, it's not necessary to completely remove the old controller. though I like those nice long wires you managed to extract!

any ideas on what kind of ribbon I'll need for the hall effect wires?
and where did you get your replacement controller?
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby august23 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:44 pm

friedwires wrote:i boiled the controllers out of the ones i've done viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17404 viewtopic.php?f=28&t=32059 i need to update my mongoose thread, the bike is a little monster!



also, I didn't see any wiring diagrams. can you help?
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Re: How to bypass internal controller on brushless motors?

Postby friedwires » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:21 pm

forget repairing the original controller. its fully potted, making it impossible to work on. what you need to do is get that controller out of there. there are three pairs of large wires(phase wires) and a five wire ribbon(halls wires) you need to get to them without damaging them so you can solder to them and bring the wires outside the motor. i found the best way is to get the controller right out of the way. boiling will soften the potting enough for you to dig it out to get at the screws that fasten the controller to the inside of the face plate.once the screws are out,you can pry up under the circuit board and break it out of there piece by piece with pliers. as far as wiring diagrams go you're gonna have to wing it. i may have kept some notes somewhere but either way we can walk you through it. i would recommend a lyen 12 fet controller for this motor,and i'd also recommend running at 48-60v
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