Commuter E-Bike from Novara Hardtail MTB

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby dogman » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:29 pm

I'm not so sure on that time to overheat on the sim. Seems like I get much better performance than your sim indicates. There is of course, some rest time between each hill. But I think the overheat time is longer in the real world. At least for the slow 9c motors it seems to be.

Hard to say for sure though, since the 15% grade hill that long is rare. I do know the 2810 can climb 10- 13% for at least 15-20 min. That was at 48v 20 amps.
THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE

Ideal charging /discharging range for Lipo, 3.65v minimum 4.1v maximum

See battery technology section, FAQ thread at the top of the page for lipo noob info.

See the frankenbike longtail at the thread below.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28389&hilit=bouncing+betty
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Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:01 pm

Not my sim, is Justin's sim.

Justin mentioned that the heat time is static - no airflow - so it is a worst case number. Useful for comparison, but not strictly accurate.

That is also without pedaling, and at 15% the 9C is starting to slow down a lot which makes heating a lot worse.

Also that was projected for 70 volts, so lowering the voltage will reduce power and slow the heating somewhat.
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Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby dogman » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:51 pm

Yeah, I figured there was something like that. Climbing steep, there would be no airflow, but weather does still matter. At 72v 40 amps, I was able to melt a 2810 in about 40 min. But I haven't been able to even get the 2812 much hotter than 150F.
THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE

Ideal charging /discharging range for Lipo, 3.65v minimum 4.1v maximum

See battery technology section, FAQ thread at the top of the page for lipo noob info.

See the frankenbike longtail at the thread below.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28389&hilit=bouncing+betty
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Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:01 pm

Changing winds is pretty much the same as lowering voltage. Reduces the heat input.
Last edited by Alan B on Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:30 am

Power Evaporation

While the bike is sitting, but the battery system is connected to the controller, there is some power consumed. But how much? I accidentally ran that experiment over the last couple of weeks.

I installed a kill switch to power the controller this evening. It is sure nice to be able to turn the controller off and on easily. While doing this I noticed that I had not disconnected the main power from the controller. The voltage was down to 71.5 (from 75) and it took 2.5 amp hours to recharge. So about 25% of the 10AH battery pack was consumed in a week or two. Ouch!

Pretty significant power leakage. This was with the controller off. Presumably it is the capacitors and FETs in the controller. There may be some other circuitry or bleeder resistors that draw power when the controller is turned off.
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Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby adrian_sm » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:51 am

I just removed the cap bleed resistor from my Lyen 6fet 4110 Xie-Chang controller.

Search for R203 on the forum. Cellman and a few others have posted about it.
[EDIT] Here is a link to the post on my thread about it.

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms
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Re: Making a Commuter MTB 9C 6x10 75V

Postby Alan B » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:22 am

adrian_sm wrote:I just removed the cap bleed resistor from my Lyen 6fet 4110 Xie-Chang controller.

Search for R203 on the forum. Cellman and a few others have posted about it.
[EDIT] Here is a link to the post on my thread about it.

- Adrian


Excellent. Apparently R203 is a 10K resistor in many controllers. Which would cause about 7.5mA drain at 75 volts. If it drained 2.5 amp hours this would be 13.9 days. That about explains it.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike

Postby Alan B » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:54 am

Two boxes arrived yesterday. You never know when those boxes from China are going to come. Good thing we're not in a hurry. Only one box was from China, the other was from Livermore.

One had three 6S 8000mah Zippy Lipos, the other says Crystalyte on the outside.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike

Postby Alan B » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:06 am

Still gathering parts for a couple of upgrades...

It is getting dark at both ends of the commute these days. May have to ride in the dark or dusk. I have been using a blinking rear LED but more is called for. I have some lighting gear but have never installed it.

Installed the ebikes.ca light system tonite. 12 white LEDs forward plus 8 rearward plus 1000 lumen cycle luminator. I need to make better mounting brackets, but the tie wrap system will work for now.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike

Postby Alan B » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:45 am

Morning Commute

The Cycle Analyst current measurement is acting strange. Both the instantaneous and the integrated amp hours. The values I'm getting don't make sense. The CA says 4.7ah used, the charger put back 6.5 on one bank. I'll get numbers from the other two banks to confirm it.

Nice view this morning. Left at twilight, watched the sunrise. Some fog. Briones Reservoir.

Image

Cycle Lumenator. San Pablo Reservoir.

Image

ebikes.ca tail light. San Pablo Reservoir.

Image

Image
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike

Postby hjns » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:44 pm

Alan B wrote:Two boxes arrived yesterday. You never know when those boxes from China are going to come. Good thing we're not in a hurry. Only one box was from China, the other was from Livermore.

One had three 6S 8000mah Zippy Lipos, the other says Crystalyte on the outside.


I am not sure I understand. Is it a Clyte motor? If so, what kind?
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:05 pm

It is a Clyte HT3525 hubmotor from Methods.

I bought this motor to upgrade this ebike. I'm not sure now whether I want to do that. It can produce a bit more torque than the 9C 2810, but it adds weight. Lately I've been working on my Son's e-bike, mine is sitting. He commutes on his almost daily. The weather is not as e-bike friendly right now so I've not been commuting on mine. His commute is short and he doesn't drive so it works out well for him.

So, do I put the Clyte on, or do I get a front motor and make it 2wd? Or do I just leave it alone and focus on my next e-bike? Maybe a dual suspension??

Installing the Clyte on this bike is a bit of work since the torque arms may need to be beefed up. This motor has more torque and it has a smaller axle so it is not just a drop-in.

I've been doing research on a front geared hubmotor to get extra thrust for steep stuff. It is certainly possible but generally gearmotors don't like my 70V battery system too much, have to do something to keep from damaging them. It is also expensive and heavy.

Perhaps I should try to keep this MTB on the lighter side, and make a dual suspension ebike that is heavier.

This hardtail aluminum bike with thudbuster works pretty well. Bad potholes are hard on the trunk and bike, but not too bad for the rider with the suspension in the seat. But a true dual suspension would be safer with respect to handling bad road surfaces.

Happy Holidays to All. :D
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby hjns » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:10 pm

:-) I know what I would do! I would do what I am doing right now!

I would get a nice FS frame, put the HT in the back, a 2810 in front, and go 2WD.... still working on that, though.

Yes, the HT needs torque arms. And it will LOVE the 70V or more.
Have fun, and good holidays!
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Re: Regeneration

Postby TonyReynolds » Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:21 pm

Alan B wrote:One other concern is torque arms. I have two, plus NordLock washers, but I do need to watch this and make sure it is not working back and forth. Regen causes forces on the torque arms opposite the direction of motor power, and forces in both directions can work things loose and that is a major problem...


Reading through some of this excellent thread and came upon the term "Nordlock". Since I didn't know what they were, I looked them up, and came upon this excellent video, in case anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgwmuZuJ02I&feature=player_embedded#!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

Tony
Third Build: 2012 Marin Muirwoods 4130 Cromoly, 7 speed 11/32 with 500/1000W MAC geared rear motor, 48V System, 52V, 11.5Ah 16s5p A123 lifepo4 triangle battery, DP CA; 20-30+ MPH... GRIN! Build Thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33819
cell_man... Supplier of A123 Cells and MAC Hub Motors: http://www.emissions-free.com/id47.html
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:34 pm

I have had good luck with NordLocks on this build. This is the first time I have used them. Each time I need to take the wheel off I can feel them get harder, then easier as the nut is loosened. They seem to work well - the nuts have never loosened on their own.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby rui_fujino » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:23 am

WOW! those NordLocks seems excellent!! I never knew the existence of it!
Does anyone know what size for our hubs or where to get them from?
Project 1: Apollo slant hard tail MTB 52v lifepo4, conhismotor, 52T-11T gearing 39.6mph top speed (with pedal)
Project 2: Diamondback s:10 Full suspension 20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 35kg, HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen controller, Bulk 600w balance charger.
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
Project 3: DOPPELGANGER d2 Visceral
Project 5 Specialized Epic20s2p (83.5v 10ah Lipo), 30kg,HS3540 sensored (MethTek), 12FET lyen @ 50A
Top speed 45mph(72.4km/h)
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:51 am

I got mine from McMaster-Carr, but had to buy a quantity of them. There is an ES member selling them in the "for sale new" section. I think he goes by shinyballs.

Here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25721
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:48 pm

Well, I finally decided to pull the trigger on a Greyborg frame and Cromotor. See Greyborg Build Planning thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34929

So the brand new HT3525 is up for sale (see viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35022). Great motor. But I want to play with the Cromotor which is basically a doublewide 9C design with other improvements... :shock:

I will still complete this mountain bike build, it doesn't need much now. I have not decided if I will do 2wd on this frame, sometime later. But for now I will focus on finishing this and preparing for the Borg build.

The Borg will only have two pedal speeds, so this MTB is still the better choice if a lot of pedaling is to be done, at least up to 20-25 mph. Beyond that it spins out for me. I believe it is 44/14 gearing.

So what's next on this build? I have a nice new Airzound that might get installed here, and this bike needs a cover for the triangle. Not sure what I will do about the battery setup. It is 18S 10AH now which is pretty good. I'm torn between going to 15AH and keeping it lighter. I will go for large capacity on the Borg, so perhaps I should keep this bike lighter.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:40 am

To participate in the Mega Enduro in February I would need 2KWH of battery. If I get three more Zippy 6S 8AH I can put six of them into the triangle like this:

Image

Then I can repack the Turnigy 18S3P into a Seahorse SE300 case and clamp them to the front forks. The trunk would be available for clothes, snacks, tools and water.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:36 pm

We've had some glorious weather the last few days and I was able to take the ebike to work again. Had to dig it out, air the tires, top up the batteries, and tried out the modified Cycle Analyst and the Blade Helmet.

Good news first, made both trips safely, no problems, and the new Blade helmet worked nicely.

The bad news is that the CA still seems to have a problem. On the way in it indicated 5 amp hours which would be a new record, but on some of the uphill sections it was indicating very low current. On the way home it indicated about 8 amp hours which is too high, and the voltage after the inbound trip was lower than the voltage of the homebound trip whereas the integrated current indicated the opposite. So it is not right.

Anyway it was great to get out, though I'm looking forward to getting the recumbent going for better posture. My neck gets a bit of stress that isn't good for it with the mountain bike riding position.

So after the 13 mile ride in the voltage was 68.3V and after the homebound trip it was 68.5V. Since I bulk charge at work I don't have any charge data, however the 4 amp charger quit after just under 2 hours.

I'll get some integrated current data on the balancing charge at home.

The brakes on this bike sure work well. Hayes hydraulic with 8" disc in front, and Shimano XTR rear V brake. Just excellent brakes, at least for my riding style. On one downhill I sit up and make an air brake, it drops the speed a few mph at 25.
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:24 am

One part of Friday's commute was a bit of fun. The first part of this commute is an 11% grade going up, and there was a lot of traffic right at 5pm so I sprinted up at full throttle and essentially kept up with traffic at 20 mph. Some folks seem to think that adding the pedaling input to 3 or 4 kilowatts motor input power doesn't matter, but my experience is that pedaling hard on a steep climb makes a big difference. If I don't pedal on this hill the speed is a lot lower (though I've never done it with zero pedaling so I'm not sure how low it goes, but likely about 10 mph).

One issue is how much power can we add for a short sprint? Some say 100 watts, but that's a long term number. According to various charts the upper limit short term is more like 1500 watts for an athlete, and 900 watts for a "healthy man" (though this drops to 450/300W for 2 minutes). The "healthy man" can do 200 watts for almost an hour. This is a far cry from 100 watts!

Another issue is what difference does this make. If you do this on the level where the motor is efficient it doesn't make too much difference in the speed. Pedaling hard when the motor is voltage limited causes the entire workload to be transferred to the pedals, and at 20 or more MPH this is more power than the rider can add, so only a few MPH can be pedal-added. But if you pedal on the steep grades where the motor torque is struggling and the speed and efficiency are low, adding the pedaling power can move the operating point up the efficiency curve significantly. The power from the motor is generating enough relatively constant torque and thrust to "flatten" the hill, and the pedaling you add then effectively is as though you were pedaling a non powered bike on flat ground. So the electric by itself may only get to 5 or 10 miles per hour on this gradient, but you can sprint pedal that up to 15 or 20 mph.

I pedaled pretty hard, as I wake up this morning 1.5 days later I'm feeling it. Probably shouldn't pedal quite that hard. :mrgreen:

Looking forward to getting my Greyborg and Cromotor on that hill at 7kw. :) Maybe I'll need to learn to pedal backwards just for fun...

The Cromotor has sufficient torque that it doesn't slow down much on hills. So pedaling won't help much then. :mrgreen:
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Re: Making a Commuter E-Bike from an REI AL MTB

Postby Alan B » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:31 pm

More info on the last work -> home commute run

I decided to use the Cellpro charger when charging the batteries this time. It is a very nice charger that has more accuracy and consistency than the standard inexpensive chargers.

So far I've charged two 6S banks of the three in the 18S pack. They each took with 10 maH of the same, much more consistency than I see with the Turnigy chargers.

5.2AH (charge to refill)
70V (approximate)
13 miles
364 watt hours
28 watt hours per mile

This is the generally downhill run, though it starts with some 11% climbing, and there is plenty of modest up and down after that.

Note that the bulk charger only goes to 4.15, and the Cellpro goes to 4.2V so some of this charge energy is making up for the less than full bulk charge it had at the start.
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Re: Commuter E-Bike from a Novara MTB

Postby Alan B » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:21 am

Commute run, first time in awhile on the Mountain bike. The Cycle Analyst seems to be working better after the 0.1 capacitor was installed. It is probably not well calibrated right now.

Rode hard on the inbound route, don't usually do that. Got down to 3.6 volts on the last climbs. Popped right back up to 3.7 when the load reduced. Probably close to a full discharge. CA says 10.35AH but the calibration is suspect. Lowest cell voltage was 3.719 a few minutes after arriving. Bulk charging so won't get a confirmation of the capacity. Should probably go to 15AH on this pack for this commute to have a bit more margin.

Was a good morning for a ride. Passed a mile of cars stacked up at a light, backs up out of Orinda.

Brakes worked really well (one steep descent into work). But the rear is screeching badly. The Hayes Stroker front lever was closer to the bars than I like, adjusted it before I left home. The adjustment may be drifting.
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Re: Commuter E-Bike from a Novara MTB

Postby chroot » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 pm

What's taking so long to complete your Greyborg build? I have been watching your Greyborg build and Haven't see your greyborg ebike.
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Re: Commuter E-Bike from a Novara MTB

Postby Alan B » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:28 pm

Wrong thread for that question. :)

I had to stop working on it for awhile, but am working on it this weekend. Need wheels, brakes, headset, stem, handlebars, throttle, modify controller to fit, batteries, wiring, drill panels, hardware, etc. Quite a few things to go.
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