Upgrade time! 40mph max speed target. Help

Can we agree that 35 mph can take as much as 2000w on a MTB? Who's able to pedal 30% of that for miles and miles? Most of us are hard pressed to put out 150w for ten or more miles. So at 35mph, you aint gonna pedal up 30% of your wattage. closer to 5-10%.

I put a 15 ah battery on a bike two times, once racing, once dirt riding. Both motors smoked. But the conditions were flogging the motor as hard as possible. Cruising on paved is different, But I have many times had a plenty hot motor( smelling the toasting windings, no way you want to touch it) after an 8 mile cruising ride at 45 mph. I say limit speed to whatever you can get for about 1500-2000w continous. That level should go the distance.
 
I have to be honest, this is all news to me, I have ragged on a 5305 in a 20" wheel, 72v, 65a, and ridden it like a moped/motorcycle, and it barely got touch-warm. Controller barely got touch-warm. And I've taken out some serious hills. I'm about a week out from doing the same with a 5303 on a 24 Mosfet controller, we'll soon see how that stacks up.
 
You'd be very hard pressed to melt down a 5305 in 20" rim. But you can melt "typical 26" kit motors" in 30-40 min if you feed em 3000w continous. Bigger wheel and faster winding, and less motor mass.
 
After much debating I went out and got a 26" HS3540 rear wheel for a good deal locally. I plan on eventually running 24s 88.8v 50 amps on a Lyen 12 fet controller. That should give me a top speed a little over 70kph which is pretty much what I'm looking for. Around 4.4 kw at full throttle and I won't be running that continuous for longer than maybe 15 to 20 minutes before toning it down.

How can I tell if this motor has been modified for the wire cut issue? There is a black outer plastic cover, some black silcone type stuff on the axle where the wire is, then a second black cover on the motor.

HS3540 wire exit2.jpg
 
I've got HS3540 and so far it does 44.5mph top speed(flat) with 20s2p lipo. So if you go for 24s you will have no trouble getting 40mph, infact you could get 45mph out of it (unless you bike is really heavy).
Also, 50amp on lyen sounds good to me, I use 50amp too and motor won't get warm at all while doing 5min WOT! But controller do get hot so you wouldn't want to do 20min of WOT....:p
It looks modified to me but then I have not seen unmodified ones so I'm not 100% sure
 
rui_fujino said:
I've got HS3540 and so far it does 44.5mph top speed(flat) with 20s2p lipo. So if you go for 24s you will have no trouble getting 40mph, infact you could get 45mph out of it (unless you bike is really heavy).
Also, 50amp on lyen sounds good to me, I use 50amp too and motor won't get warm at all while doing 5min WOT! But controller do get hot so you wouldn't want to do 20min of WOT....:p
It looks modified to me but then I have not seen unmodified ones so I'm not 100% sure

Is that a 12 fet controller you're using that gets hot? Would an 18 Fet controller be more appropriate for full throttle for 15 to 20 minutes? Your top speed sounds pretty good to me. I don't know how often I'll actually be riding at max speed but it will certainly be nice to have it and be able to sustain it for 15 to 20 minutes.
 
electr0n said:
rui_fujino said:
I've got HS3540 and so far it does 44.5mph top speed(flat) with 20s2p lipo. So if you go for 24s you will have no trouble getting 40mph, infact you could get 45mph out of it (unless you bike is really heavy).
Also, 50amp on lyen sounds good to me, I use 50amp too and motor won't get warm at all while doing 5min WOT! But controller do get hot so you wouldn't want to do 20min of WOT....:p
It looks modified to me but then I have not seen unmodified ones so I'm not 100% sure

Is that a 12 fet controller you're using that gets hot? Would an 18 Fet controller be more appropriate for full throttle for 15 to 20 minutes? Your top speed sounds pretty good to me. I don't know how often I'll actually be riding at max speed but it will certainly be nice to have it and be able to sustain it for 15 to 20 minutes.

yea im using 12fets. 18fets maybe better but if you do use 18fets, your battery will get drained so much faster... as far as i know, I never need to go faster than 40mph for such a long period of time since there are on road around me where I can go so fast without risking danger :p
If you want to go 20min WOT then you might want to get more than 10ah for your distance
PS: you got fullface helmet?
 
yea im using 12fets. 18fets maybe better but if you do use 18fets, your battery will get drained so much faster... as far as i know, I never need to go faster than 40mph for such a long period of time since there are on road around me where I can go so fast without risking danger
If you want to go 20min WOT then you might want to get more than 10ah for your distance
PS: you got fullface helmet?


18 MOSFET's drains your battery faster than 12 huh... This is news to me lol. Actually, there is just less resistance because of the increased amount of FET's, setting an 18 FET to the same current as a 12 FET results in a cooler controller, with less sag. To get the same effect, you can just upgrade the FET's to 4110 or alike, less resistance.
 
Well, 12 fets set to 40 amps will draw slower than 18 fets set to 60 amps. Maybe that's the difference?
 
It seems like everybody likes the HS3540, but I think the HT3525 is better for most folks who run 26" wheels. Not only does the HT have 5% more copper than the HS, it gets out of the dangerous heating mode quicker. It's the heat that kills these motors, so the sooner it gets to its efficient speed the easier on the motor it is.

As to hitting 40 mph,, My HT3525 with a Lyen 12 fet controller set at 60 battery amps, 100.3V hot off charger in a 24" wheel w/2.5 hookworms will go 43.5 mph and so far the temp gauge hasn't gone over 80C. It mostly stays under 60C. I do have my sidecovers drilled (6 x 1½" holes).

I'd play it safe and go with the HT3525 unless you are planning to run a 20" rim.
 
What about using small sized wheel? Acceleration is much better allowing you to reach the maximum speed (and optimal efficiency) much quicker.

On the simulator, HS3540 on 16" wheel at 100V and 40amps give you 40 mph and it never overheat.
 
I think best starting point is by thinking of Max price you want ti spend on it.
If you run 26" then 20s (83v hot lipo) to reach 40+mph
If you run 20-24" then 24s (99.6v hot lipo) to reach 40+mph
Another word more battery more cost.

After chosen the wheel size then you should already got idea of which motor to get.

Personally 26 is better for being able to pedal at higher speed (up to 35mph with 11t freewheel )
 
I've already picked up an HS3540 in a 26" wheel. I was put off by the HT3525 due to the slower speed at my current battery voltage of 66.6v. Also the torque seems to drop off pretty quick towards the top end of the speed on the simulator. I do appreciate that the HT takes more time to overheat and has slightly more copper. Nicobie the speed you report off your HT seems a little faster than the simulator predicts, it sounds pretty good actually and that would work for me. You must have really nice acceleration with that setup. I'll have to wait and see for myself how much of an issue heat becomes and let that determine my next eventual motor purchase.

I haven't any experience with the slower wound motors. I tend to look more at the faster speed windings so I can hit a target speed using less voltage but then overheating does become an issue this way and slower speeds tend to be less efficient. I was thinking I'll probably be able to control the heat with my riding style and if that's not enough I'll eventually either drill holes, install fans or move to a smaller diameter wheel. It does seem that a lot of folks here prefer the slower wound motors and just throwing voltage at them to get the speed up. Part of my decision was based on price which is the primary reason I picked up a local second hand HS laced into a 26" wheel, seller claimed it had never been used and it looked mint to me and I saved almost $100. Still have yet to test it out though. Fingers crossed there are no cut hall wires. I took a chance to save some money. Hopefully I won't get burned.

Last night I modified my old 36v to 72v crystaltye 20 amp controller. I added some solder to the shunt and took the bike out for a test ride. I don't have a cycle analyst or anything to measure the power I'm pulling now but I felt a real nice boost in torque and acceleration last night and I had the classic ebike grin going. :mrgreen: My old motor has new life.

I'm actually excited to go into work this morning to take out my old 407 front crystalyte, I'm still using to commute, with the new shunt mod I installed last night.
 
After several rides with my modified Crystalyte 36-72v 20amp controller it was running nice on my 407. I decided to throw it on my HS3540 and was thrilled all the phase and hall wires matched up without having to swap wires around. I took the bike out for a test ride and the torque and power was really nice, a significant improvement over the 407 at the same wattage. I also noticed a big difference in the rear wheel drive vs the front wheel. The front end of the bike felt very light, which is good when going up curbs and bumps but it didn't feel as stable at high speed due to the light front end. I also blew up my 20 amp controller. So the HS3540 must be more demanding on the controller than the 407. Now waiting on replacement controllers to arrive. In the mean time I'm taking the bus to work and it takes me an hour to get to work, when the same trip took under 30 minutes via ebike!

Here's the bike. It's cheap. No indoor storage at the moment so no sense in getting a more expensive bike at this point.

SupercycleHS3540.jpg

Here's a picture of the wire cut protector I made from an aluminum tea can. Hope it does the job. Idea emulated from sn0wchild I believe.

Wirecutprotector.jpg

Here's my burnt out controller. It was pretty hot after a short 5 minute ride on the HS3540.

BurntController.jpg
 
what controller are you planning to replace buy? I recommend Lyen 12 fet since he works very hard and do the right job perfectly!
also he's controller will be programmable as well as 3 way switch compatible. :wink:
 
Yep a Lyen 12 fet is in the mail. I got Lyen to set it for 50 amps, and I'll run between 66.6v and 88.8v. I also got another infineon 72v 40amp replacement for the burned one from ebikes.ca. I'm not looking forward to playing with the hall and phase wires. Anyone know if the wiring are the same between Lyen's controllers and the ones from ebikes.ca? I do know they are both Infineon.

Here's the wiring for the ebikes.ca controller according to their website:

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/C7240-NC.jpg
 
Here's another picture of my bike with the batteries mounted.

HS3540SuperCycle.jpg

I was riding with the batteries in a backpack but I don't really like it that much. I don't like feeling attached to the bike with the power wires and it wasn't all that stealthy having wires hanging out of a backpack leading to the bike. The only thing I do like about the battery in a backpack is the convenience when it's time to get off the bike. I can easily carry the battery around while running errands. For actual riding though I prefer the weight of the batteries to be on the frame.

I've got three 6S 8 amp hour zippy lipos in the battery bag. Two batteries hang on either side of the top tube and the third rests between the other two on the top tube itself. There is a small aluminum platform mounted on the top tube beneath the battery bag to provide some stability. The batteries are strapped down with some elastic Velcro straps I picked up from a dollar store. The battery bag is pretty stable and can't slide around this way. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It's a pretty clean install. All the wires are hidden well. The controller is in a nylon bag mounted to the seat post which conceals it and also offers some additional rain protection. The bag can be unzipped for hot days.

I'm pretty happy with the top speed (for now). I'm able to keep up with traffic for the most part. Now I need to double my battery capacity and get a cycle analyst on there so I can monitor everything.
 
Hi Electron,
That is a nice clean build, very stealthy. Would you care to share a link to the bags that holds the 8 AMPHR Lipo and the controller?
 
if you are getting 40mph you might wanna upgrade to disc brake soon?
 
Bike Fanatic,

I picked up both bags locally. The controller bag is actually a toiletry bag I bought from a sporting good store http://en.atmosphere.ca/index.html. I just shoved the controller in there and folded up the extra wiring, poked a couple holes through it for Zip ties and run the zip ties through the mounting holes on the controller then I zip it up. You could do the same thing with any bag. It was actually way over priced I think I paid close to $20 for that little bag.

The battery bag is also nothing special just a regular bag designed for a rear rack. I got that one from Canadian Tire for about $20. I just bend the bag in the center and put one lipo on each side of the top tube and the third one goes in between the other two and it works like a saddle bag. Just beneath the battery in the middle there is an aluminum plate zip tied onto the top tube and it helps stabilize the bag and gives the center battery a flat platform to rest on. Then I cut a couple slits on the inside of the bag and ran Velcro around the batteries and coming out the bottom of the bag rather than strapping it outside which is kind of ugly.

The weight feels pretty good this way. I'm not sure if I'm going to leave it like this or not. My knees brush the bag a bit and I find it a little annoying to pedal. I think I might try getting a couple more bags about the size of the controller bag and hang the batteries vertically towards the front so my knees don't rub against anything at all.

BatteryBag.jpg

rui_fujino,

Yes I need better brakes for sure. V brakes are not good enough above 50kph and they wear out really fast. I was going to use regenerative braking to help with slowing down but I'm a little concerned about putting too much stress on the dropouts even though they are pretty thick steel and I'm running two fairly thick steel torque arms. I think I have mounting holes on my fork for disc brakes. It's on the to do list. I also need to get a dc dc converter hooked up so I can install my gorilla alarm system that I've had sitting in a box for over a year.
 
I've had a chance to ride my bike a few times at 66.6v 40 amps and it's a lot of fun but when riding into a strong headwind I still feel somewhat under powered. I think my target is going to move up a little to 88.8v and 60 to 65 amps. Is that asking too much from a 12 fet lyen controller? What is the benefit of the 18 fet controller? Is it necessary for that power level?
 
electr0n said:
I've had a chance to ride my bike a few times at 66.6v 40 amps and it's a lot of fun but when riding into a strong headwind I still feel somewhat under powered. I think my target is going to move up a little to 88.8v and 60 to 65 amps. Is that asking too much from a 12 fet lyen controller? What is the benefit of the 18 fet controller? Is it necessary for that power level?

That's what I run and so far, so good.
 
That's good to know the 12 fet can handle that power. I think I'm going to go with an 18 fet to be safe and give me some room for additional power in case I decide to get an x5 or something more powerful later.

Now I have another question regarding the halls. My motor stutters a bit particularly on modest inclines and also when I engage the throttle sometimes when using close to full throttle. It doesn't seem consistent. I usually notice it I'd guess upwards of 40kph. It's hard to describe it just doesn't feel smooth like the timing in the motor is off.

My question is it possible to have a working hall and phase combination that seems to be working almost perfectly but shows slight stuttering, could this be due to a bad wiring combination? I've been able to ride it into work and back twice now, plus a couple leisure rides. The thing works but there is this slight hesitation at times. It doesn't feel totally smooth at all times. Are there hall / phase combos that will work 90% good but exhibit symptoms like this?

My first guess is a bad connection at the phase or hall wires. I soldered the halls directly to the controller, but maybe one of them came loose or had a cold solder joint. My second guess is I've damaged one of the wires around the axle.

Any guesses? I hate to keep pulling the motor off and messing around with the delicate hall and phase wires around the axle.
 
Well I took the side cover off to inspect the wires around the axle more closely. I found what looked like a burn mark and I cut off the white fiberglass stuff covering the wires expecting to find a partially cut wire or something but instead I found nothing. All wires appear to be intact. What looked like a burn mark must have been a grease stain or something.

Before opening the motor I also checked my soldered hall connections and they all appear to be well connected. Nothing was loose. The phase wires are in the Anderson connectors, I didn't inspect them too closely, not expecting a problem there. I was really expecting to have a wire partially cut in the axle groove. So now I'm at a loss. Maybe one of my battery connections is loose or something?

Any ideas? Opening the motor wasn't a total loss, at least I was able to spray the inside with some anti corrosion stuff. I also know for sure I have no wire cut issues, or at least I didn't notice anything obvious.
 
electr0n said:
I hate to keep pulling the motor off and messing around with the delicate hall and phase wires around the axle.
why? don't you think it's fun? just kidding. i think it's about time some design a hinged access panel... :lol:

electr0n said:
I found what looked like a burn mark and I cut off the white fiberglass stuff covering the wires
electr0n said:
Any ideas? Opening the motor wasn't a total loss, at least I was able to spray the inside with some anti corrosion stuff. I also know for sure I have no wire cut issues, or at least I didn't notice anything obvious.
oh, whoops, this was from march?? i just tracked down this thread from some of your other q's, and thought it'd be the best place to respond.

are you still having this issue??

if so, i was going to say that i've had similar problems, and was only able to fix them by replacing the hall wires.

do you have more q's about power levels? ie, 88x 60A?

i've been running the same 12 fet 45A ecrazyman controller for 1.5 years now. but MAX i've had it to is 5kw (@24s), and average PEAK is 4kw @20s.

and to answer you q elsewhere, i have a lot of hills nearby, nothing like mountains, but nonassisted cycling is not very fun. :lol:

more to the point, what is your terrain? commute distance?
 
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