How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby BikeFanatic » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:56 pm

Imperov, I am with you. I have spent close to 15,000 on my Ebikes over the years, maybe more!

That started in 2003 with a Voloci then immediately bought a Crystalyte 406/409. Wasted money on Bad Batteries were a big part of the cost, and trying to get it right, Using crappy bikes too.

I finally got it right with a Ping and the Xtracycle on a tidal force. I may have never got it right if it wasn't for this forum, Ebikes.CA, Dogman, ( thank you).

With the Xtracycle you can have any battery you want big or small, and you can not flip that bike, it is stable on snow and ice, and you can go the store on your way home, pick someone up at the train station. :)
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Brentis » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:09 am

BikeFanatic wrote:Imperov, I am with you. I have spent close to 15,000 on my Ebikes over the years, maybe more!

That started in 2003 with a Voloci then immediately bought a Crystalyte 406/409. Wasted money on Bad Batteries were a big part of the cost, and trying to get it right, Using crappy bikes too.

I finally got it right with a Ping and the Xtracycle on a tidal force. I may have never got it right if it wasn't for this forum, Ebikes.CA, Dogman, ( thank you).

With the Xtracycle you can have any battery you want big or small, and you can not flip that bike, it is stable on snow and ice, and you can go the store on your way home, pick someone up at the train station. :)


You didnt like the Voloci?
What was wrong with it?
That was the first Electric vehicle to catch my attention. :wink:
Sent me out on my E journey.

:mrgreen:
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby BikeFanatic » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:35 am

Well I did love the Voloci and still have it running. The range was a big issue with that bike and no way to pedal home when I ran out of juice. That bike is also a big attention getter also, and mostly I like to cruise incognito, on bike paths and roads. The Voloci still runs, and they mostly " got it right " the first time but batteries were not developed enough to be cheap and good. I run it with the NIMH batteries it came with and Lipo in the trunk. I can beat it though in speed test though with my 9C.

here is a video , just watch the first 30 seconds to see the voloci in action.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Kingfish » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:47 am

Sacman wrote:
iperov wrote:many builds. I spent about $20.000 on various types of motors, batteries, frames, forks, accessories, etc.


This is why the standard ES greeting to new members is
..."Welcome to the forum... and to the ADDICTION!" :mrgreen:

D I T T O !

Last night I went to the pub for dinner after picking up my pre-order of Mass Effect 3 from GameStop; I enjoy XBox, though admittedly it will likely collect dust because I expend so much more time on my next EV build. Got into a conversation with a guy quaffing next to me about the cost of EVs and comparing them to ICE (Ok ok, I steered him into it after he said he was a motorcycle enthusiast and decided to plum him for feedback): He says that Volt/Leaf/Tesla are too expensive ($35-100k), so I went through the math and diagramed how the EV fuel costs are negligible after the initial purchase in comparison to ICE & petrol; that got his undivided attention and we chatted up a storm. I know I’ve spent well over $20k in my investments to date and I am planning on doubling that again for the next. It is an irresistible pleasure to sort out the details and kick around ideas with kindred folks, then having the development in hand, driving around near and far – is like Christmas everyday: Difficult to sum up into words, but addictive elation comes close. I mean like - this has to be the best self-help therapy ever :lol:

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* Current ride: 2WD Disc EBikeKit (9C 2806-equivalent) / Dual Lyen 12FET / 15S6P LiPo when commuting.
* Going to California: 2011: Trip completed 8)
* Club Member: 40-mph & 101. 10k-Club: 9653 miles-to-date, 4163 as 2WD.

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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Brentis » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:59 am

Cheers. BikeFanatic. :)

Looks like good bike to convert to Lipo.

I love the concept of the Voloci.
The tech just needs to be upgraded.
I think this bike was 5 years to early.

voloci-Rear Linkage Suspension..JPG
voloci-Rear Linkage Suspension..JPG (100.2 KiB) Viewed 215 times

How does it handle?
I like the rear suspension design. Is it effective?
Does it "feel" stable @ 30mph+?


Enjoy.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Brentis » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:24 pm

*Apologies for OT*
For those interested I found this guy & his Voloci upgrade blog.
http://tulrich.com/voloci/index.html
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby dkw12002 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:23 am

Concerning the cost of electric vs. internal combustion, the important factor is likely to be time, not miles with e-bikes/motorcycles. Since the Li chemistry ages, if you had a 6 year old bike/ motorcyle with low mileage, that would be worth less than a 2-year old bike with high mileage, due to the high cost of battery replacement. With an internal combustion bike, mileage is generally the most important factor. Another way to look at this is if you have an e-bike/motorcycle, you might as well put lots of miles on it. Example. Zero for 2012 claims 308,000 MILES, but who rides a motorcyle 50,000 miles a year? Yet in 6 years, that bike may be needing a new battery even if you only put 2,000 miles a year on it. Battery replacement and initial cost must be figured into the comparison if you are talking about cost. E is better, but no way is it cheaper, IMO.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby LI-ghtcycle » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:20 pm

I like your point on battery costs VS fuel/operation costs of EV's VS ICE, but if you think of the battery more like fuel and less like a permanent component, it makes more sense.

I like the look of that Voloci too, but not having pedals kind of defeats the purpose to me. :wink:

I like the idea of an ultra light electric motorcycle, but give me an E-Bike any day over that. 8)
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.

My latest build: Vision R40 with Golden Motor "800W" Trike motor as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, 30 MPH on 12S (46V) 12 AH Turnigy Nanotech LiPo (25-50c) able to climb tall hills on a single Amp Hour! :grin:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29810&p=475990#p475990
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Kingfish » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:10 pm

dkw12002 wrote:Concerning the cost of electric vs. internal combustion, the important factor is likely to be time, not miles with e-bikes/motorcycles. Since the Li chemistry ages, if you had a 6 year old bike/ motorcyle with low mileage, that would be worth less than a 2-year old bike with high mileage, due to the high cost of battery replacement. With an internal combustion bike, mileage is generally the most important factor. Another way to look at this is if you have an e-bike/motorcycle, you might as well put lots of miles on it. Example. Zero for 2012 claims 308,000 MILES, but who rides a motorcyle 50,000 miles a year? Yet in 6 years, that bike may be needing a new battery even if you only put 2,000 miles a year on it. Battery replacement and initial cost must be figured into the comparison if you are talking about cost. E is better, but no way is it cheaper, IMO.

Hmmm – good challenge; let’s work out the math…

With cars, I recorded three popular models and the kW for each as of 2012 (the data is part of a larger evaluation study). Next, I determined the cost/kW of Zippy FlightMax 5S1P 15/2C - the battery of choice for my systems which are for reasons beyond the scope of this thread, though factors as $380.86 USD/kW. I took the total kW, divided by 6 years to create an annual cost over time, divided further by $3.50/gallon (optimistic) to get the total gallons per year, then multiplied by 25 mpg which is optimistic for city driving, and developed the following statistics:

Code: Select all
Car           System    kW   cost    $/yr   US-gal   Dist/yr
------------------------------------------------------------
Volt          g-elec    16   6094    1016   290      7254
Leaf          elec      24   9141    1523   435      10882
T. Roadster   elec      53   20185   3364   961      24030

There are several problems with these calculations:

  • For engineering studies, I typically warrant batteries to 5 years.
  • There is a study that says that LiPo batteries useful capacity degrade 5-20%/year depending on severity of operating conditions.
  • There is no offset for cost of recharge. However if I drive 6 days a week for 48 weeks at maximum distance, that’s 288 cycles; if using the Volt it will probably cost $2 USD/cycle -> that’s $576 USD annually, which is equal to another 165 gallons or 4115 miles. No free lunch.
  • Vehicle maintenance costs are excluded: Electric cars should by theory require a lot less servicing due in part to the lack of an ICE.
Other factors that we can twiddle are obviously price of petrol, mpg, and annual miles, whatever. For commuting and local runabout, forgetting for a moment that it’s gas/electric I would place myself in the Volt category. For cross-country, I’d have to double the capacity to make any descent headway. So long as the batteries are not exposed to extreme heat/cold or overcharged/depleted beyond safe limits, maybe 6 years is possible.

Conclusion: I believe that battery costs pencil out to be reasonably less than petrol. Whether it is by large significance depends as with all things upon personal use, necessity, infrastructure, and utility. Even if the costs were the same, the grid as a whole is more efficient at providing power than is the process of cracking oil and consuming oil through ICE.

~KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Current ride: 2WD Disc EBikeKit (9C 2806-equivalent) / Dual Lyen 12FET / 15S6P LiPo when commuting.
* Going to California: 2011: Trip completed 8)
* Club Member: 40-mph & 101. 10k-Club: 9653 miles-to-date, 4163 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby REdiculous » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:44 am

Sorry, but electric cars can't compete. There's almost no way you're going to save money by buying a more expensive electric car. What you aren't spending on gas is more than made up for in the higher initial purchase price and eventual battery replacement costs. :|

The Nissan Versa sedan starts at $10,990. You can get the Nissan Leaf for "as low as $27,700 net value", but the MSRP is $35,200.

How much gas can you buy with the difference and how far does that get you? My napkin math suggests the Versa will do at least 100k miles by the time you've spent the same $27-35k. :wink:

back on topic; ebikes are where it's at and I'm on build 2 by my count. Technically the same electricals as build 1, but on a better platform. Although it's not quite "right", it's "different", still "inexpensive" and it's working a lot better than the push trailer I made. :)
Last edited by REdiculous on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Kingfish » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:45 pm

REdiculous, apologies - you are correct: I’m OT. Moving further comments over to Electric vehicles, poor performance, high cost, vaporware which is the most-closely matching thread I could find.

~KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Current ride: 2WD Disc EBikeKit (9C 2806-equivalent) / Dual Lyen 12FET / 15S6P LiPo when commuting.
* Going to California: 2011: Trip completed 8)
* Club Member: 40-mph & 101. 10k-Club: 9653 miles-to-date, 4163 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby motomech » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:25 pm

One build was enough..................

to make me realize that one will not be enough.
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2003 Rocky Mountain Edge w/2WD. , Dual Ananda Q100 "fast wind" W/stk. controllers modd'ed to 17A, 28 mph on 12S Lipo, Stand Alone CA, Cycle Lumenator
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby crossbreak » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:32 pm

I went about 2500 miles on my first 250W build in 9 months , so you can guess how pleased I was because I didn't have too high expectations. I'm studying mech engineering which helped to keep my expectations very low :D I spend about 500 bucks on the whole bike with battery and charger. I drove about 20 miles every day and a few trips of about 40 miles with 36V 10ah lipo.

It was the reason why I sold my chinese made 100mpg moped:
Image

and build a RC concept with really completely undersized drive train (ebike2: my another 80-100 rear drive build) in the meantime. I should have build it into the 100cc moped, but it was gone :( (which gets 100 miles per gallon in real life use and for which I payed about €400, it ran 60mph but not with 100mpg ;). Then the axle of my front driving motor (1st bike) cracked, which was a good thing because I know now that 250Watts at the crank is more than I thought, cause I fitted the motor in my 80-100 meant bike (e-bike number 3):
Image
...which had so many issues that I completely redesigned it. It's still in progress and I hope that I can finalize it next weekend. But this will not be the end. My big future project will now really aim for an offroad bike. It will use a 5-speed gearhub on a jackshaft and I will be able to pedal through all gears. If someone knows the "eRocket", he knows what I aim for. I never fitted any Lipo on any frame. I know now why I never did. All the time and money I spend on my Ideas, I could have had a couple of days on my suzuki motorcycle instead.

but would it really be worth it??

I know that for me, at 4kw and 2kilowatt hours Lipo, the whole e-bike story will end. I'm developing hybrid drives and I know why I do... they also run on natural gas :D which is a much better source of energy than any lipo will ever be, if theres's no near grid. It is the most clean fuel to burn, it is most efficient (it's almost even with hydrogen but much better to handle), and you can make it out of wind energy (which is the cheapest and furthest developed energy source humans ever invented) easily. For the US countryside it needs cars that run 200 miles on a charge. To gain this the capacity of batteries still have to double at least. If you commute more than 50 miles per day a lipo powered motorcycle will do the job. For longer distances you will still need your car or a railway system which can carry e-bikes. Trains are so much more efficient than cars. I I can only laugh about the US railway even if the railway system in my country isn't perfect at all. The condition of the railway system for passengers in the US can only be told as third world standard, I already used it myself :( Trains are old and slow. If the US wants to get away from their "most polluting nation" condition, they have to think more about new railways tracks and trains. And less about ebikes or electric cars.

OK I just saw that there is no wiki about this so called "wind gas". For making wind gas or solar gas it needs more than just electricity and water. It needs pure CO2. This CO2 must come from industrial processes or something else like rotten plants. In my country we have so much CO2 from our omnivore producing economy that no one will ask where it would come from till it's rare. Sorry for writing OT, but this just had to be explained here.

What I mean is: OK there might be some issues to be solved. But if you go for a front drive 1kw geared system there wont be much of it. So if you only intend to get to work you should go for it. A direct drive does not make sense below 2kw in my opinion, because you can just forget regen, it wont be used enough to be suitable. Only with a 2KW concept the hills that can be climbed are steep enough to talk of "regen" when you drive them down. OK in San Francisco this will be the case :D In my home city, the hills are just as steep, but I still drive them down whithout regen, because I try drive through cross streets to use the down-grade.
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. . . Why not, make something that lasts?
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby Trackman417 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:50 pm

Took me two builds to "get it right" or atleast the way I wanted it. The first time I was limited by money and what I didn't want to buy. A year later I solved the moeny problem and schooled myself on lipo and such,. :)
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby neptronix » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:36 pm

Update.. i must be going on build #6 by now. We have 3 fully functioning eBikes in the house, and a dual suspension Genesis V2100 that i'm gonna move a motor over to, and another dual suspension frame waiting to have parts stuck on it..

The disease is progressive.
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Pro-tips for noobs: Avoid BMS Battery like the plague | Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby hillzofvalp » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:40 pm

My bike has been a journey to completion. I don't think I'll ever call it complete, though. I've revised the enclosure a few times, and I'm still trying to work on weatherability. This is my first build, and I hope that it will be my last high performance, excessively large bicycle conversion. Next time will be a car.

I might have it right on my first build, but that's only because I'm able to work with the frame easily by working in CNC lab... :) I also have a very tough butt from riding road bikes around town, so not having full suspension doesn't bother me.

When I offload my poor 9C from my current build to make way for the cromotor, I may make a recumbent trike or a self-balancing 29er unicycle. I haven't decided. I hope that this bicycle will last me a long time and that the enclosure will accomodate well all the new and coming cells with higher energy densities.
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby kudos » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:40 am

hillzofvalp wrote: I hope that this bicycle will last me a long time and that the enclosure will accomodate well all the new and coming cells with higher energy densities.


Which cells are you talking about there hillzofvalp?

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Build 1A Gary Fisher Wahoo Hardtail : Crystalyte HS3540 40A 49V : 31mph
Build 1B Gary Fisher Wahoo Hardtail : Mac 10T 30A 49V : 27mph
Build 1C Gary Fisher Wahoo Hardtail : Crystalyte HS3540 40A 82V :
Build 2 Mountain Cycle Fury FS : Mac 10T 30A 49V : in progress
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby dozentrio » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:19 am

How many builds? Hrrm... I'm on 4th, and still don't have it "right"
My Turnigy 80-100 bike (40V 120A)
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Re: How many builds did it take before you "got it right"?

Postby hillzofvalp » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:20 am

Fantasy123 cells of course.. Though anything which is available and better than my current m1 cells will be wonderful.. 2" form factor optimal
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