Fat Man Commuter - 270lbs on 700c

[wesnewell]

Basically, I was suggesting he start with a 48V battery pack instead of the 36V pack. Running a 36v pack on that motor would be like putting a 1 barrel carb and governor on a Corvette.

[dsullivan]

Very interesting. I am glad you brought this topic up, because it's exactly what I am currently struggling with.

I am hoping this motor the Clyte HS3540 is the toughest motor.
I am confident that you are correct. I will want to play around with more as I go.
If I stick with the 35 amp inferion controller I will be limited to 48V max
BUT if I upgrade to the 40A it has a 100V Max.

So far I don't know where to buy from. My current option seems to be ebikes.ca (And they appear to be a great option)
Unfortunately they seem to be running out of stock on many items, I believe until april.

Some people are suggesting not using the 40A because it is to much.

I am wondering...

If I use the 40A 36-72V with the 36V 14AH Battery to start with, could I not simply add another 36V to end up with a 72V 14AH system that would be quite fun.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks
Dave

[MadRhino]

Yep, that is the best controller that is offered at Grin, because it is easy to upgrade. 4110 mosfets can feed a lot of power because of their low resistance.

[dsullivan]

This leads me to my next question.
I know battery packs can be connected in parallel to increase Amp Hours but can they be connected in series, I assume they can.

Where I am not familiar with the newer battery technologies, I am wondering if the basic principals still apply.
Where the batteries come with Battery Management will putting them in series hurt them?

Thanks
Dave

[dsullivan]

Just reading your signature and I am curious.

Norco A-Line, 50+ Mph dirt bike and winter commuter

How in heck do you make an electric bike that goes 50+ Miles per hour. I use the ebikes.ca simulator and I put in 100v battery with a 100amp controller on the HS3540 and its top speed was 50Mph with an overheat in 4.8 Minutes.

What motor would you have to use for these speeds?

[MadRhino]

I am hoping this motor the Clyte HS3540 is the toughest motor.

It is not, my recommendation is this one because it is capable of much more than you need. The toughest motors are much bigger, and offer no interest to someone building a first bike with low performance. They are for those who are feeding a lot of power already, and want to feed more or ride longer distance before overheating.

I know battery packs can be connected in parallel to increase Amp Hours but can they be connected in series, I assume they can

Yes they can. Some even series two different battery chemistry without any problem.


As for my bikes, I use 3 different motors and waiting for a 4th. 2 of them are H series motors that I like for their lightweight to power ratio, 3 of them are X5 of different windings, and one is a Cro-motor. I am wairing for 2 of the new Clytes of X54 series that was made for a special order of a group buy.

[MadRhino]

How in heck do you make an electric bike that goes 50+ Miles per hour. I use the ebikes.ca simulator and I put in 100v battery with a 100amp controller on the HS3540 and its top speed was 50Mph with an overheat in 4.8 Minutes

You have a lot of reading to do on ES. You will see that I am far from the fastest bikes here. I have many motors and controllers, some that can pull 150A, a lot of Lipo batteries and good bikes to play with. Yet, I am not a speed maniac and my goal is more about overall performance: Acceleration, braking and handling performance all have more importance to me than top speed.

The H motor can be pushed to 100Kmh for a minute or so, that is more than enough for me. It let me build lightweight and has very powerful acceleration, those are the qualities that I like the most.

[dsullivan]

Wow! I'm not a speed freak either and that speed is crazy on a bike.
I don't feel so worried anymore about 48v 40amp. Sounds nice and mild now.

Thank you very, very much
And now you have me wondering about building off-road bikes and go-karts

[wesnewell]

I don't consider the H series Crystalite motors anywhere close to tough. Seen too many negatives about them. I'm a Goldenmotor fan. I guess because I've used them without problems for thousands of miles. And they are a lot cheaper than Crystalite. As for controllers. There's no reason on earth to pay more than $35 for a controller capable of up to 100V. That's what I paid for the 40A controller I use, and that included shipping from China. That said, I'll give you one more place to check for a 1000W kit in Canada.
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/26-I ... n-Kit.html
What ever you do, get more than 36V.

[hjns]

Hmm. We are not making it easier for the OP....

Anyway, Dave, you should put your expectations for now and for the future in a list, and put those against your budget. Then shop around for the best buy.

1. Expectations for your current bike:

1. Maximum % hill climbing with/without pedaling at which speeds?
2. Top speed on the flat
3. Minimum range

2. Expectations for future upgrades:

1. Maximum % hill climbing with/without pedaling at which speeds?
2. Top speed on the flat
3. Minimum range

3. Expectations regarding service / support from the vendors

4. Budget


For example, if you expect your first build to go 30km/h up the 500ft 14% hill with pedaling, and have a range of 20km max per day, the current setup would be on the low side, but would work. However, when you then want to go faster, you will have to upgrade both batteries and controller, because the controller is limited to 48V 35A. I would prefer to go straight for the 72V 40A controller with 1440 FETs. Also, you will get important advice and information from the recognized vendors (Grin/MethTek), which you will not get from the elcheapo controller direct from China.

That way, you can start with a 36V battery, play around, make some beginner's mistakes in building your first E-bike. Once you have some experience with that, it will be easy to add another 36V in series, and blast away at 72V. As MadRhino mentioned, the motor is more than strong enough for your needs.

For your information, I started with the HT3525 at 74V, because I put more emphasis on power/heat balance when climbing 10% hills, and I did not mind the low speed. Now I am running 30S 126V without any problems, and the motor has a top speed of 74km/h. More than fast enough for the bike.

[John in CR]

Guys, just be careful with recommendations. The poster is a large man, so let's stay away from talking about your own performance until you lightweight guys strap 100lb backpack on and measure results. Of course with some of those settings you'll blow the controller or motor on the first significant hill you attack. Hills and big loads means survivability and going slower, or a bigger motor.

Dave,
It's sounds like you're on the right track, and already understand some stuff about motors that most don't get. That motor will get you to solid performance, but with your load you're going to have to learn the limits on hills. Stopping to feeling the motor temp with you hand with some frequency after the most demanding portions of your ride will tell you a lot. 36V is going to give you electric assist, not a bike fun for you to ride around without pedaling. You'll also definitely want to assist the motor with pedaling on hills. It's also a good idea to help it a bit on takeoffs. Once you go to 72V, then you'll have to be even more careful to maintain a certain speed up the hills. Wesnewell is a big guy too and his advice isn't wrong. He's just a bit more into the DIY aspect and keeping things as economical as possible. From the sound of it the little extra you pay for Ebikes.ca support is definitely worth it for you. When you're ready to really step up performance, then you'll need to go with the kind of stuff I do, and us big guys get lots of attention outrunning cars and scooters, but you won't get there with that motor, at least not in a big wheel.

John

[dogman]

Good points for sure John. I was not overly concerned about the weight difference. I climb 5% plenty, and even with my cargo bike that weighs a ton, it's no sweat.

But now we hear there is a much steeper hill involved, 14% ! Yeah, now the weight really matters. That is an order of magnitude steeper.

More data please. This hill is 500 feet long, or 500 feet tall?

I think you will still make it, but your motor will get toasty hot doing it. You will have to pedal your guts out for that 500 ft in a low gear. I highly recomend you install a thermometer inside the motor. This will help you determine how you can climb the hill coolest. Chances are, charge it WOT will be best. But it could be better to actually back off the throttle near the top, and use the motor to assist you to climb the hill much slower. The idea is, if your motor is only going to be able to use 500w, don't give it 2000 so it can make heat with it. The further you make it up the hill on momentum the better, so a 48v battery will help. You can start up the hill at 4 mph faster with 48v.

The rest of your ride, with no more than 5% grades, should be no particular problem with the Hs or the Ht motor. I don't advocate climing the hills no pedaling, but you should be able to climb 5%, and still not pop huge sweat, or breathe too hard to talk. Just a nice moderate effort to help the motor keep it's cool.

As others will tell you, you can get stuff with zero customer support cheaper. But Grin is still the best vendor in the world. Not the cheapest, just the best. Justin does more R&D than anybody, including little tests like riding across entire continents.

[dsullivan]

I believe this is my last question on this topic

ebikes.ca is out of 48v charges for a while so I am limited to buying a 36v 14ah battery pack.

This fits my 36v now 72v later plans

It's my understanding that the Crystalyte Sensorless controllers will not do 72V only 36v-48v
If I want to run 72v later I will need the infineon 40a that is for a sensored motor. My question is can the infineon run a non-sensored motor?

In the end I would like to have a dependable machine that is sensorless, can upgrade from 36v to 72v.

From what I have read the sensored motors are smoother and start better but have a history of being a little less dependable because of hall sensors or hall sensor wires.

Am I stuck using sensored if I want to upgrade later to 72v?

Thanks
Dave

[dogman]

Sensored for 72v in my book. Don't sweat the controller you need later though. You will be a lot better informed which controller you want later. Along with which motor. You may be wanting a much bigger motor when you go 72v later anyway.

I think a good solid 36 to 48v setup is fine for your first bike. I am biased though, I have multiple bikes for different purposes, and don't believe in one bike fits all needs.

One battery can run multiple bikes, the motors and controllers are relatively cheap.

[Ypedal]

most.. repeat MOST... motors have sensors built in and wires that exit along with the phase wires..

you can use a sensorless controller on this type of motor, simply dont use the hall sensor wires...

an old video i made to troubleshoot a problem combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn38_mSQ ... ature=plcp



imo.. get a sensored motor and controller.. regardless of voltage.

[dsullivan]

Great video and thanks for sharing it again.
Ièm guessing the instant start controller uses the sensors to detect when to send power to the different phases thus without a sensor signal it sends nothing at all to the windings.

I am purely guessing here but the pedal first must charge at least one phase to create a magnetic field and that is why you get cogging. once the wheel starts to move it can sense from the other phases movement so it starts the rotation of power through the phases.

Anyone want to educate us on this further?

Hey your video leads me to this thought. If you turn off the controller do you still get cogging and resistance from the motor when manually pedaling?
Or does unplugging the hall sensors reduce drag when running manual?

[dsullivan]

I was mistaken. I do have another question.

My current bike has 700c tires
From the reading, the simulator and because ebikes.ca only list a 26" Clyte Kit I am wondering if the new 26in wheel, disk brake and freewheel will fit right in place of the 700c because the sizes are standardized?

Any hope of this or will it take some modifications?
If it won't bolt right on I feel I should buy the 9c 2807 Kit that comes on a 700c.

Thanks
Dave

[MadRhino]

With disc brakes, you can swap a 26 in wheel. Those motors are made to fit standard 10mm dropout that have a width of 135mm. Only rim brakes would make the fit complicated, for the brakes wouldn't match the smaller rim.

A 26 in wheel will be easier on your kit. A 700C makes for a loss of torque already, with heavy weight to climb it will be lame. Most experienced big guys who want extra power will build with an even smaller wheel with high voltage sooner or later.

Starting with 36v, you will want to double that pretty soon after you get some experience of Ebiking. The 36-72v 40A Infineon controller with 4110 mosfets is what you want. Forget about sensorless motors, a sensored motor can run sensorless if need be, but a sensorless motor will never run sensored unless you are willing to fit hall sensors yourself and you won't be able to do as clean of a job as if you had bought it sensored.

[Ypedal]

sensorless controllers come in 2 types.. Pedal First and Instant Start .

The pedal first types use the back EMF produced by copper passing over mangnets while the motor is turned by you pedaling.... once it senses the proper poles it can run on it's own..

Some sensorless can fire from a dead stop, RC controllers do this and crystalyte offers a big boy version..

regardless.. get a sensored setup.

[dogman]

If you are using a rear disk brake, the main fit issue would then only be if the frame is really narrow. If so, maybe you'd need to choose a narrower tire instead of somehting fatty. I think the 2807 will also do most the job you need fine, with 2000w or less. Pedal your guts out isn't going to change on that one hill.

[kevo]

Dave,
Great questions and you are getting quality feedback from Justin, dogman, JohnInCR, Henk, MadRhino, YPedal et al! You're research now is time well spent as these are non trivial design tradeoffs. A small suggestion if I may. TopoRoute.com has a very easy tool to map your routes and do elevation profiles. I think you will find it invaluable to crosscheck what type of grades you will be travelling on. If you're feeling a bit more adventurous, the ebikes.ca simulator bottom right tables will let you see just what kind of hills and how long you can climb them.
Thank you for sharing your questions and decisions with the group as we all benefit from your adventure!

[John in CR]

As an add-on to Kevo's post, once you have your elevation profiles, then this nice calculator can give you accurate power requirements. Just delete the power number and input the speed number to put it in calculate the power mode.http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

[dsullivan]

Thank you everyone.
I have been overwhelmed by the community response and participation in this project. I have been using the two Calculators.
The wattage required to do my journeys worst hill and hold 10miles per hour is 1000w, in a perfect simulator.
Really my route will avoid that one hill and the remaining hills are all 5% or less.

I have my heart set on this system and I will have to wait for ebikes.ca to get some parts in stock. I believe it will be soon.


1440 Watts (upgrading to 2880 Watts soon)

Crystalyte HS3540 Kit on a 26" rim setup ( With throttle and Cycle Analyst)
The infineon 36V-72V 40A Controller
36V 14Ah LiMn eZee battery pack, with matching 4A aluminum charger.*** with plans to add another 36V 14AH eZee pack later for a 72V system.
Shimano freewheel 8speed
160 mm rear disc brake



I am comfortable with this system, understand what each part does and believe it will be a great first ebike.
Thank you for all of your help and I look forward to being active on here giving advice after I have made my mistakes and gained some experience.

Thanks for everything
Dave

PS - I am guessing that ebikes.ca is quite busy lately but does anyone know when they will have the 40A_upgrade Infineons in stock? I am chomping at the bit to get this ordered and built Cash burning holes in my pocket right now. Running to the bank to put it on the Visa.

[hjns]

PS - I am guessing that ebikes.ca is quite busy lately but does anyone know when they will have the 40A_upgrade Infineons in stock? I am chomping at the bit to get this ordered and built Cash burning holes in my pocket right now. Running to the bank to put it on the Visa.

If you want to get a controller "fast", either ask MethTek or Lyen. However, the system will then not be plug and play, and you will have to add appropriate connectors yourself. Keeping with Grin will keep things plug and play, so shoot Justin an email and ask. Alternatively, ask Methods to provide the controller, motor, and stuff as a P&P kit, and then you only have to worry about the battery connector.

System looks nice. You should have a lot of fun with it.

[kevo]

Dave,
Despite the hit to the pocketbook now, your excellent planning / design will have major payoff long term and will keeping your grin going. 72 volt LiMn will be massive fun! Properly setup the CA will keep your system healthy for a long time.