Nuvinci N360 hub

[Philistine]

I recently installed the newly released Nuvinci N360 Hub http://www.fallbrooktech.com/08_bicycle_n360.asp, thought I would give a review.

I have been running a Cyclone kit on a Glorious Fortune cheap chinese dual suspension bike (it isn't really called that, I think it is called EzBike, and it says "accept no limits" on it - awesome), I actually bought it cheap and used from the guy in Australia who sold me the cyclone kit. It is the 960W/1200W controller, and I was running on 36V lifepo4, but have just moved to 48V Lipo. Even at 36V I found the Cyclone tore through derailluers, I was up to my third when I decided to try the new Nuvinci N360 Hub.

I paid $399US, and got it shipped from Smart Bike Parts in the US, and built into a wheel here in Australia. I presume everyone here is familiar with the product, I know quite a few users on this forum have the old version (the N171), but thought I would give my thoughts on the new N360. For those not familiar with it, it is a continuously variable transmission hub, so it is a case of turning the dial, and setting your gearing within a range of 360%, rather than a fixed number of gears. It has an increased range compared to the previous hub (it has 360% range), and reduced weight. Other acknowledged features are that the amount of turning required on the dial is reduced compared to the old one (which apparantly was a tad impractical in terms of the required turns), and the ability to change gear ratio under load is improved.

Bike.JPG (102.47 KiB) Viewed 5808 times

Hub.JPG (109.72 KiB) Viewed 5808 times

shifter.JPG (85.17 KiB) Viewed 5808 times

chain.JPG (97.85 KiB) Viewed 4970 times

Most of the installation was straightforward (cutting cable housing, setting cable length etc..), but I ended up having a few dramas with resetting the overdrive. Basically when installing it you have to "reset" the overdrive, by turning the axle against the hub and getting two marks to line up, you then attach the interface. This is what effectively sets the interface and the hub to its overdrive setting. I could reset overdrive, and then install the wheel, but once I shifted further to underdrive, it would not go back to full overdrive. This meant that once I actually installed it, I was only getting about 60% of the range I should have been getting (I could get full underdrive, but only about 60% of the way back to full overdrive. I would pull the wheel off, reset overdrive, reinstall, and the same thing would happen. Then other times I would go through the process, and it would give me the other 60% (ie, full overdrive, but only 60% of the way to full underdrive). I was tearing my hair out, as I was sure I was doing everything right. I ended up emailing Fallbrook (the manufacturer) about it, and they gave me a few processes to try to get it to work (I can detail these to anyone who experiences the same problem), but none of them worked for me. They acknolwedged that in the first run they made, there were some teething problems with range (they asked me for the serial number to check if it was in the first production run). So in the end I gave up, and just rode it with the 60% range I needed (which was full underdrive, and only 60% towards full overdrive). After riding for a while the range increased (without me doing anything), and I now have about 95% range, which suggests perhaps that it just needs to "break in" a bit. In any event I am happy now because it is pretty much perfect.

Apart from those initial installation difficulties I am extremely happy with it as a product. It has taken me ages to get used to it mentally, it is really weird turning a dial, and adjusting the gear ratio without any cracking gear change. I had read a lot of other reviewers criticise the claim that it changes smoothly under load, but I have to disagree. It does "stick" a little bit under load, but I was suprised that even under full power output, I can change the ratio as I ride, which is really useful. It isn't completely smooth under load, but you definately can change under load as you accelerate.

Apparantly the manufacturer suggests using the Surly Singulator chain tensioner, but one upside to the Cyclone (it has to have some upside after all), is that it acts as its own chain tensioner.

When I ordered the hub, it hadn't yet been released, and because the old Nuvinci required a freewheel to be added to it, I lashed out and bought a ENO 16 tooth freewheel, only to find when the hub turned up that they have now installed a freewheel inside the Nuvinci, so you only have to provide a sprocket.

It has made the world of difference to the cyclone setup, as previously I was constantly having the chain come off, or having the derailluer bend (or in one case explode). The Cyclone setup puts the standard derailluer type setup under way too much strain in my opinion. I have probably put about 60km on it, and haven't had the chain come off once or skip a beat. With the previous setup I could not change gear under power (without causing all sorts of consequences), and even without changing gears, I was constantly waiting for the chain to fly off or problems to happen. Now I can change under power, and set the gearing to just the right ratio, even under power.

I have a 16 tooth cog on the back and 44 tooth on the front, and I can peddle and add to the thrust at about 35km/hr under full overdrive.

All in all I can highly recommend it to other Cyclone users. My only issue now is getting a steel mounting motor bracket made up to replace the Cyclone aluminium one, as it long ago started to bend under the load. I must say my cyclone has been a constant battle of maintenance, I recently installed a BMC V3 on a recumbent trike, and I am starting to see the attraction and simplicity of frock motors. Having said that, my cyclone can pull a trailer with my two kids and a full load of shopping up steep hills on 48V, which the BMC would eat its teeth trying to do i suspect.

Conclusion and info for others considering the N360

-In my opinion the claim that it can change under load and power is true (there is a slight stick, but you can change)
-unlike the N171, it does not need a standalone freewheel, it has its own freewheel built in (you only need to supply a sprocket)
-resetting overdrive can be a chore for initial install and problematic (but mine seemed to improve over time)
-Overall I highly recommend it if you can spare the cash to get rid of your derailluer maintenance

[Ebikeman]

Philistine interesting review, nice to see someone else has a similar set up to me.

I have also got the new Nuvinci N360 and a Cyclone drive through the crank. I have my motor (3 chainwheels type) mounted forward of the crank and can still use 2 of the chainwheels up front to drive the sprocket on the N360 if I need to.

I am not sure what the problem was with your initial setup, having to reset the overdrive. When I received the N360 the setting was already pre-aliened it is held in place by the anti-shift retainer which I left in place until I had laced up the wheel and was ready to install.

On my setup I did need a chain tensioner, and have got a Powerplay CHT100 Single Speed Chain Tensioner which was cheap but seems well made.

The shifting is smooth under power and the only time I find there is any problem shifting is when the hub is stationary. It is possible to shift but not over the full range. Move the hub a little and then it shifts smoothly again across the rest of the range.

At the moment I am off the road, making the battery housing in the frame and sorting out the electronics. But like you one of the reason for the move to the Nuvinci was the problem of chains braking /shedding and derailleurs. So far no problems with that but it’s early days as I have only had the hub for a month and part of that time has been taken up with the build.

I have mounted the N360 shifter on the left hand handle bar as I prefer the throttle on the right. It works Ok like this, apart from the little inch worm indicator is upside down.

When I have finished the battery housing I will post some pictures of the setup.
Thanks for your report.

[Philistine]

Thanks Ebikeman. The issues might have been particular to my unit. When I got it the markers were aligned (I too left the anti-shift retainer on during wheel build), but after install i wasn't getting full range (upon installing in full overdrive, it then would not go back there), that was what caused me to take it off and reset it. I also thought it was interesting that without me doing anything the range did expand over use, and now I am getting pretty much full range. Also that when I emailed the manufacturer they admitted the first batch did have some problems, and as I had pre-ordered mine by about two months before release I presume mine was in the first batch. Just thought I would pass on my experience in case anyone else had it.

It's a great product though, and perfect for the ebike application in my opinion. I should have also mentioned in my review that Fallbrook were very fast with responding to my email about it, and were very helpful, particularly as they are a manufacturer responding to an aftermarket query. I am now really happy with it and it is working really well.

I will be keen to see photos of your setup Ebikerman. Cheers Phil.

[theyerb]

I'm glad I found this post-- I am planning on using the N360 and my 900w Cyclone kit in my newest full suspension build. A few questions:

1. How did you arrange the cyclone throttle and N360 controls? Aren't they both supposed to be mounted on the right side of the handle bars? I imagine you'd have to put one on the left side, but it seems like it would make things backwards...

2. I have seen the Cyclone kits mounted underneath the frames more times than I can count. It seems like mounting the motor inside the frame, so long as the bike's shock is out of the way, would be a better, safer mounting location. Does this have merit? (Note: it would have to be the 3-piece chainwheel option for the Cyclone kit)

[Philistine]

Hi Theyerb,

In answer to the questions:

1) I moved the throttle over to the left hand side (turning it is reversed), Ebikerman kept his throttle on the right, and put the Nuvinci shifter on the left. As he points out in his post, that means the little cycle guy on the nuvinci shifter is upside down. To be honest, once you get used to the Nuvinci shifter you don't look at it anyway, you do it by feel, ie, you remember which way is which, so turning it really just requires you to feel the ratio with your legs. I find with my cyclone that i rarely finesse the throttle though, it is either full blast or nothing, so it didn't bother me moving it to the left side and being reversed.

2) I only have the bottom type mount as that is what i got when i bought the bike originally. I think the three chain ring version with the motor mounted above the chain ring is probably better not only because it potentially gives more than one front chain ring, but it is also probably more sturdy in how you can mount to the frame. The under frame version like mine I find requires constant adjustment and maintenance, as the alimunium L plate that the motor is bolted to takes a huge amount of stress. Mine is bent all over the place, and I have to adjust it constantly. The only thing I like about my version of mounting is that it is a bit more stealthy (a lot of people don't recognise it as an ebike by sight, just by the screaming hornets nest sound that is my cyclone motor). I don't know about your cyclone, but my motor has gotten about three times louder than when I bought it. I presume the planetary gears are what is making the noise, but it now sounds so loud.

Will be interested to see photos of yours when it is going.

Cheers, Phil.

[Philistine]

Hi Theyerb,

In answer to the questions:

1) I moved the throttle over to the left hand side (turning it is reversed), Ebikerman kept his throttle on the right, and put the Nuvinci shifter on the left. As he points out in his post, that means the little cycle guy on the nuvinci shifter is upside down. To be honest, once you get used to the Nuvinci shifter you don't look at it anyway, you do it by feel, ie, you remember which way is which, so turning it really just requires you to feel the ratio with your legs. I find with my cyclone that i rarely finesse the throttle though, it is either full blast or nothing, so it didn't bother me moving it to the left side and being reversed.

2) I only have the bottom type mount as that is what i got when i bought the bike originally. I think the three chain ring version with the motor mounted above the chain ring is probably better not only because it potentially gives more than one front chain ring, but it is also probably more sturdy in how you can mount to the frame. The under frame version like mine I find requires constant adjustment and maintenance, as the alimunium L plate that the motor is bolted to takes a huge amount of stress. Mine is bent all over the place, and I have to adjust it constantly. The only thing I like about my version of mounting is that it is a bit more stealthy (a lot of people don't recognise it as an ebike by sight, just by the screaming hornets nest sound that is my cyclone motor). I don't know about your cyclone, but my motor has gotten about three times louder than when I bought it. I presume the planetary gears are what is making the noise, but it now sounds so loud.

Will be interested to see photos of yours when it is going.

Cheers, Phil.

[dumbass]

I have the old 171 hub and it does not like to shift under load. It will down shift with no problem but for up shifting I have to get off the throttle. However, it has improved as it wears in. I too had it originally mounted bihind a Cyclone and without question it is the best way to run a crank mounted Cyclone. I currently run the Nuvinci on an EZip but I also run twin motors in the "V" with direct chain to the Nuvinci. So in the future you could look into seperating the Cyclone to it's own independent chain. It works great.

I notised that you are running a huge angle on your spokes. My local bike shop pulled the same BS on me and I refused to except it and he respoked it. The problem I had was the spokes were on such a steep angle the nipples were being bent. Nuvinci also states (at least in the 171 manual) that the spokes should all be installed from the same side of the hub. Your installer didn't follow that recommendation.......nor did mine. I had given him the manual to read before he did the work but he missed it. However, he agreed if it ever had a problem he would respoke it for free. Again in my situating the spokes are being bent over each other because of it. BTW, I am running a single cross spoke setup. So far so good. Maybe 1,000 on the hub and no problems.

I also installed my shifter on the left so the worm is up-side down but I prefer the throttle on my right because I also ride scotters and cycles and it drove me crazy having the throttle on the left and the shift on the right.

Bob

[theyerb]

Thanks for the response, Phil-- cleared up everything.

screaming hornets nest

I can't wait to hear my cyclone in action-- it's currently sitting on a shelf waiting for a suitable bike.

As for the Nuvinci N360s... these things are amazing! I think Fallbrook Technologies is sitting on a very valuable and revolutionary product/technology. Can't wait to see it in other applications.

[Mark Stosberg]

I also have the NuVinci N360, installed in an Electric Yuba Mundo. I have more photos and details about that bike here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markstos/s ... 01/detail/

The viable shifting pairs well with a variable throttle-- a nice match an electric bike!

I also have an N360 on a Surly Big Dummy, and ran into the same problem described above, where i lost about 40% of my upper gear range. NuVinci has offered to replace it under warranty, but it would be a pain to get the wheel rebuilt to replace the hub.

So, I'm very curious: when you say it took a "while" for the hub to repair itself, how long was that? I wonder if hard riding or easy riding would benefit it more at this point. That hub had in use for just a few months when it happened, so the idea of a "bad break-in" sounds like it could fit here as well.

[kfong]

Nice review Philistine, I will be installing the development kit of the Nuvinci setup on my cyclone this spring. I'm on the fence about moving the motor. It definitly is more stealthy mounted on the bottom bracket. I ended up making my own mounts. The original brackets were crap. You probaly have alignment issues creating more noise or the chain has stretched. I've had to replace my chain already. My original mounts actually cracked during use. This is my utility bike for errands, but I been upgrading it lately and now feel it getting too nice to leave about, so keeping it stealthy seems appropriate.

[miro13car]

Can you refresh us on what are there major advantages of Nuvinci hub over derauler?
I know it is compltely seald?

[sandymac]

The advantage is simplicity and robustness.

I got one of these recently so I can't comment on how long it will remain 'robust'.
I actually got http://zocoelectricbike.com.au/modelrossa.html

I really like the N360 and I have always hated derauler - they are somehow always giving trouble and getting damaged. Also I hate the noise they make
The N360 comes with almost no instructions on how to use it.
There was a sticker in cryptic English saying "WARNING! Do not screw the shifter when the bike stops" This is ambiguous at best; at worst its wrong! I find the shifter works smoothly and with minimal force when the bike is still or when moving and there is no force on the pedals.
If I try to 'change gear' while the motor is running or pedals are cranking the resistance is such I fear I will break something. I have no idea if this is a 'early batch' problem.
Any advice welcome.

[Dave BD]

I've had the Nuvinci N360 for 800km now and am not very impressed.
First problem is inefficiency. With a derailleur system I could reach speeds of 30km/hr on a 5% grade and 40km/hr on flat ground. With the N360 it is now 24khm/hr on a 5% grade and 35km/hr on flat ground. On my commute to work I average about 26.5km/hr with the Nuvinci N360 compared to 31km/hr with a derailleur, a difference of about 15%.

Now you could claim that I have lost fitness since buying the Nuvinci N360, unfortunately I use a Stokemonkey electric assist on a Surly Big Dummy, and this does the majoriy of the work. Note that if you introduce an additional 15% inefficiency that turns a 400% Nuvinci N360 into just 0.85 x 400 = 340% range for an equivalent derailleur system.

I changed to the N360 because I wanted to try out an IGH for the supposed improved reliability, even though I knew before hand it would be slower.
HOWEVER I would hardly call it reliable or well built. The shifter is a complete joke... beware of any cable slack, or the cable will slip inside the shifter and shred itself to pieces within 50km! I replaced my gear cables twice before I got this right. While I'm happy to call myself a crap mechanic, I've never had an issue changing derailleur gear cables... I definitely think derailleur systems are more idiot proof in this regard.

Also make sure you never shift this under serious load! Anything more than about 200W and it won't shift... but that doesn't mean you should force it either! Going up an 11% grade hill with girlfriend on the back I gave the shifter a wrench too far (was drawing 900W at the time) and this resulted in the loss of the small cable end nut. The shifter doesn't budge under load for a good reason, so beware!

Up until this point I was happy to live with the Nuvinci N360, so long as it could last 20,000km or so. I got some spare cable end nuts and it was easily fixed. It is easy to shift so long as the load isn't too much. It's also convenient if you have a throttle for an electric motor and only want the shifter on one side.

BUT on my way home yesterday something just gave up. The wheel had all but locked up! It would barely roll down hills, and I can't say I was happy to walk my Big Dummy 12km home.

I know that the minimum ratio between the front chainring and rear sprocket is supposed to be 1.8 for normal peddling and 2.1 for a 250W motor. Extending this I assumed you would need a minimum ratio of 2.7 for a 750W motor, so I have 44T on the front and 16T on the rear.

Any thoughts about what might have gone wrong?

Also I know the guy who created the Stokemonkey uses a Rohloff Speedhub and seems very happy with his setup. So I am thinking the Nuvinci N360 simply couldnt handle the power/torque of this motor.

[Philistine]

Dave BD - I thought I had updated this thread but maybe I forgot, my Nuvinci ended up packing it in quite quickly (after only a hundred or so km). It started leaking fluid, and would make a grinding noise and not turn properly. In the end when I discussed it with Nuvinci, I was honest and said I had been using it in a powered setup (which at that time voided the warranty - don't know if that is still the case), but they replaced it for me under warranty anyway, as they said that mine was from the first batch and there had been some QC issues with the very first batch. So that was really good of them.

But Dave BD sounds like me and you might have had the same failure. I would suggest if people are looking at using a Nuvinci in a high power setup they go with the older N171B or whatever it was called, as the fact that both mine and yours failed is not a good sign to me, and supports why they void your warranty if you use it in a powered setup.

I ended up selling my replacement N360 to another ES member, and started exclusively donning frocks, and have never looked back.

[deepfraught]

FYI they are being advertised for e-bikes now
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/cycling/n360
"Perfect for e-bikes too" and always referring to "bike and e-bike"

[ferro]

My friend is running the N360 with a 1800Watt mid drive setup. He also experienced the loss of range problem, it turned out to be in the shifter. Fallbrook said they have had some shifter issues and sent out a updated shifter and cables free of charge. Also he just noticed the hub is leaking fluid the other day. Not sure what is going on yet, riding and monitoring at this point. I'm not sure if this is the result of too much power, or it could be the result of a recent fall.

[Green Machine]

I just blew out a Nuvinci n360 running approximately 4000 watts to it.

During shifting between gears, i heard a loud snap.

Now the back chain freewheels as if the nuvinci is stripped.

I am thinking the n360 was holding up pretty good, and i have heard it make unhappy noises when applying throttle after shifting.

I think i will try another hub and this time be more careful when shifting.

[Stevil_Knevil]

That loud 'snap' may have come from one of your 3 freewheels grenading ..check them 1st..

[MattyCiii]

Yeah there's a freewheel there on the right side - not hard nor expensive to replace. I've done it before. Look at the bottom 10% of this page: http://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-co ... i-360-Hub+

[Green Machine]

Oh thanks guys that would be relief.

It certainly feels like a broken freewheel since the bike freewheels now in both directions.

My feelings so far is the n360 is reliable up to 2000 watts, and over and above it remains to be tested.

By the way the nuvince was handling wonderfully before this failure for over 100 miles climbing SF hills etc. At most it would get luke warm so i dont imagine i was losing much efficiency.

I am lacing up a rohloff this week to give that a try under heavy load.

[iperov]

By the way the nuvince was handling wonderfully before this failure for over 100 miles climbing SF hills etc. At most it would get luke warm so i dont imagine i was losing much efficiency.

yes, its about 60% eff.
Better 80% eff generator, and 80% motor = better than nuvinci.

[sandymac]

Also make sure you never shift this under serious load! Anything more than about 200W and it won't shift...

Absolutely correct - even with a 200w motor!

I was told I needed to add a chain tensioner because I had rear suspension and this would fix the problem. This is not correct.

The rear suspension without a chain tensioner is actually a problem, but in a totally different way. As the seat drops down under the rider's weight, the chain gets tight and therefore limits the rear suspension from moving its full range of travel.

Nuvinci seem oblivious to this and push the 360 for e-bikes.

[dustyearlobe]

I have been running the hub with 2x 1200w cyclones ,no problems yet ,but what i can say is if it starts leaking fluid its probly the seal on the disc side ,its only a rubber o ring seal but be warned if you lose your fluid you might as well throw it away as it seems you cannot buy this from nuvinci and it is a vital working component and not any normal oil as it has fine metal particals in it ,
these particals when compressed turn solid and create vital links between bearings and drive in the hub (dont know any tecnical terms)somone else might chip in on this

[amberwolf]

There is a thread over on one of the motored bikes forums discussing the hub and the fluid and sources for it. It's linked in the Nuvinci dev kit for cheap thread, I think.

I don't remember if anyone actually ever bought any, though.

[Rollodo]

If possible, please continuously post your updates to this thread, as I for one am (though there may be other members who are also) thinking of configuring their setup to accommodate hubs like Nuvinci. As for how often, maybe once per month (or every 100 - 500 miles) or so.

--Thanks, Will.