SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing Sat April 7th 2012 Grange Racetra

[Alan B]

I think it is important to figure out the phase current where the first knee in the efficiency/saturation curve is, and to limit the phase current to a value in that neighborhood. It makes a huge difference in how quickly the motor heats.

Perhaps Thud would be interested in helping get PaulD's famous bike running again.

Two months to the next race.

[Thud]

I have wire in hand & am allways ready to wind a motor

regarding phase currents I have been finding very conservative settings are required...with the C20 mod, It comes to roughly 2x(maybe 2.25x) the battery current settings. So if 50 batt =100-125 on phase.

On my 12fet controlers I typicly run 55 batt 130 or 145 phase.
Even with those settings, the controllers "over run" the current limiting as read on a calibrated CA. (A residual function of the "block time" I think) Ive seen peaks of 110 amps on the calibrated CA. Thats 8kw input on 18cells.

The other big issue is Hall placment. there is a very fine line of correct placment under riding conditions....Internals are what they are.....but an external set up is a finiky troll to figure out without a scope.

Let me know if my services are required.

[Farfle]

Heres some highlights from the race, more to come:

[etard]

Farfle, did you get any race footage? I need more footage, actually what I really NEED is a GoPro already!

[Ypedal]

cargo bike racer !!! FTW !!....

that's so awsome.. i've never raced on a track.. something on my to do list one day !

[grindz145]

Awesome video thanks!

[Nelson Topper]

Grange Race 2012 Photobucket Link. Pictures by Nelson Topper at Bend Electric Bikes...Feel free to use them!!!!
http://s1019.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... ce%202012/

[liveforphysics]

I think it is important to figure out the phase current where the first knee in the efficiency/saturation curve is, and to limit the phase current to a value in that neighborhood. It makes a huge difference in how quickly the motor heats.

I agree.

I happen to have a couple of them, and CC supplies capable of delivering >400amps.

I will do the same test Justin did with the hubmotor saturation to one of these 80-100 motors and see where we hit the saturation point.

[SoSauty]

Farfle, that's a GREAT foto! It took me 30min to just find out who tagged me in the 1st hard left 2nd lap of heat2. Apparently we had a misunderstanding as what the line was, I considered it in close in the mid of the turn, he thought I should of maintained a lower path but came up on him. I wonder if his brakes didn't grab as well as mine.

And there's a grand foto of the Grange April 7th 2012 Flyover Thanks man

[Thud]

he thought I should of maintained a lower path but came up on him.

ahh the age old argument....allways settled by the leader has the right of way

& I just thought you were practicing your geology hobby interest.

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

[RollinTwentySix]

Congrats to the winners, piss on the whiners, and thanks Luke for breaking again.

Betting that you won't finish the race is money in my pocket

[Alan B]

Congrats to the winners, piss on the whiners, and thanks Luke for breaking again.

Betting that you won't finish the race is money in my pocket

Where do you find people who will take that bet?

Luke has made tremendous progress. Frame, Controller, Brakes, front suspension, drive chain, Motor position sensor have been fixed. Cooling the motor may be the last bit!

[liveforphysics]

Congrats to the winners, piss on the whiners, and thanks Luke for breaking again.

Betting that you won't finish the race is money in my pocket

I'm glad you can profit. I have a blast making things break.



Alan- Do you have the pictures of grinding the slot with the cut-off-disk in the bottom of the motor to drain the water out?

[Alan B]

Hi Luke,

I don't see any pics of it. I recall trying to get a picture of the process, but it was hard to make out what was going on, so I don't believe I took any. I just reviewed them again and don't see it.

[Arlo1]

Congrats to the winners, piss on the whiners, and thanks Luke for breaking again.

Betting that you won't finish the race is money in my pocket

I would bet against Luke given the circumstances and knowing how his setup was WAY over powered with a lack of cooling as well. Sorry Luke...
BUT and I SAY BUT in CAPS! The world and I mean the entire world would be a big ways behind without a great guy like Luke pushing the limits. He works on things that will blow your mind so don't worry Luke sees this all in a different way that alot of us can nver grasp, its who he is he really doesn't care if he finishes he just wants to keep getting faster! And when it breaks he makes it WAY better.

[auraslip]

I always get the feeling he doesn't care about winning. More like just showing how feeble your attempt would be if he really wanted to win.

I think he goes to the races to light a fire under gassers pants to give them that, "oh shit, this is what electrics are capable of?"

[dingoEsride]

I always get the feeling he doesn't care about winning. More like just showing how feeble your attempt would be if he really wanted to win.

I think he goes to the races to light a fire under gassers pants to give them that, "oh shit, this is what electrics are capable of?"

I think so too, it's obvious he could win by de-tuning somewhat, well done to all that raced and those who captured footage, and as for trophy why doesn't the E crowd bring their own to offer after all would you really want a polished 2 stroke crankshaft or piston on conrod planted on a wood base as a trophy if you won on an electric bike?

[sico]

I agree, it would have been good to get a heads up that electric/open trophies needed to be supplied by a volunteer ESer before the race. No foul on the guy who donated his trophies for gassers only though.

[Juicerman]

I donated a 17" rear wheel to the prize table. The promoter, Neil, told me that I needed to award it to whomever I deemed worthy. So...

..'The ebike most likely to be mistaken for a gasser' won it ..Juicer!

Stevil, you represented us ebikers best at the race, taking wins in every class you entered. You were like a featherweight defeating middleweights for the championship!

Yeah, the trophy shituation was a scandal, but prolly not Neil's fault. Anyway, it's gonna take all of us to fix this planet, Luke, the shooting star that burns brightly but doesn't land, Juicer, who looks good but finishes last, and Stevil Kinevil who threads the needle and gets the checkered flag.

Thanks for the wheel, Steve, you're a class act

[Juicerman]

[liveforphysics]

That picture is beautiful!!! Nicely done Stevil!!! Woot!!!!

[Stevil_Knevil]

Oh man, THAT is my new desktop pic!

I came away from the awards ceremony empty handed, feeling invisible to most, and met you shortly after ..you patted your chest and told me, "Your trophy is right here.."

You totally earned The 1st annual ES

'Wheel Of Change'

(Wrench In The Works) Award We all look forward to seeing what you do with it


Much respect, Fluggelwagen/Brother Guinea Pig

[SoSauty]

Look back at the far corner. Click on 2x's to view.

[nicobie]

Has anyone seen the official results yet?

[acuteaero]

I have wire in hand & am allways ready to wind a motor

regarding phase currents I have been finding very conservative settings are required...with the C20 mod, It comes to roughly 2x(maybe 2.25x) the battery current settings. So if 50 batt =100-125 on phase.

On my 12fet controlers I typicly run 55 batt 130 or 145 phase.
Even with those settings, the controllers "over run" the current limiting as read on a calibrated CA. (A residual function of the "block time" I think) Ive seen peaks of 110 amps on the calibrated CA. Thats 8kw input on 18cells.

The other big issue is Hall placment. there is a very fine line of correct placment under riding conditions....Internals are what they are.....but an external set up is a finiky troll to figure out without a scope.

Let me know if my services are required.

I really appreciate the thoughts and input!

It's heartening to know that people have found a reasonable "mean" to make these motors reasonably reliable. I read your bike thread Martin- good info! I have sworn before that I would not buy a Kelly because I think they're overpriced and badly designed... but that's an option I guess- A lower kv Wye rewind is definitely on the agenda. I have also been reading your threads, Thud and boy there's a lot of info in them! Knowing your baseline settings for the 12fet is instructive- I believe the 24 fet on the bike was set to 60/250. I really wonder how closely the numbers you put into the controller programming software actually correspond to the currents seen in the system- I am looking forward to getting my dyno set up and spending some time with a fast scope and some shunt resistors to look at what's really going on.

Regarding the "C20 mod"... My EB318 controller had no part populated on the pads marked C20... I ended up halving the shunt resistance instead!

And yes, from all I've seen the accuracy of hall timing is critical. I experimented with the external sensors Paul had built for the bike and found just the slightest shift meant the difference between running terribly and not running at all! (never got it running very well with them, didn't spend much time tuning) I completely believe that accurate hall timing as a starting point will make any controller set up any way work much better. I'm definitely thinking about some ways to try to make this more resilient and perform better (another reason for dyno testing...)

Luke- if you get a chance to run that saturation test I would certainly be very interested in the results! As I'm sure many others would as well.

Anyways, all this doesn't really really belong in the event thread. So I'll finish up by saying: Steve! You and your greyborg were awesome! Totally rocked it! You're the man! Class act!