Design Aeusthetics - eCar/eBike sound

[lostrack]

I was on a team that pitched to design the sound for a popular electric car. We were going to involve one of the top, most iconic sound designers in the world - but the manufacturer couldn't afford us.

During this period, and years before, I did alot of work on sound design analysis of electric cars and vehicles and have my own opinions on this.

The new Audi Etron (skip RIGHT to the end to hear the sound) is evocative of what I call, a new, powerful and smooth sound.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/04/audi-esound/

The Nissan Leaf is not, it sounds awful.

EU regulations are now / soon will be, asking for every electric car to emit a generated sound under 15mph.

I've been thinking of putting something on my bike, just for fun.

I'd like to open the discussion, should anyone else be interested

[cal3thousand]

Seems really cool, but how would that work on an ebike? Would the emitting device be small and loud enough?

[johnrobholmes]

The emitting device could be the motor. I like that Audi drive sound. Deeper and richer than the typical block commutation noise we get.

[neptronix]

If your motor is not loud enough to be heard, then your build is weak sauce and needs to be upgraded.

Throw a couple kilowatts into a motor constant and you'll get the desired effect

[Lock]

I'd like to open the discussion, should anyone else be interested

I vote for user selectable... Hard to say why the 2007 Sunflower nEVer caught on:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/01/26/us-japan-car-idUST15648920070126

Japanese consumers who test drove the car were impressed by its quietness. But the car comes equipped with the clip-clop sound of horse hooves hitting the pavement to alert pedestrians and other drivers.

Did you know the first horseless London taxis were nicknamed "Hummingbirds" `cause of the sound of their electrics?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8099&start=558

Anyway... see also the Benedini engine sounds system:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32891

Lock

[redorblack]

I think the whole concept of making electric vehicles noisy is trying to suck up as the out group. There have been gas vehicles so quiet they put warning lights in the dash to tell you the vehicle is running if you hit the key after it is started. But, I've NEVER heard of someone demanding a super quiet gas powered luxury car be made noisy for pedestrian's sake. If forced to make noise at low speed, maybe I'll install some 140db air horns that sound every 2 seconds... think that will fit the bill?

[Lock]

Hehe... it's about introducing "new" tech (actually really old tech) by disguising it so it appeals to a limited late 20th-century perspective... In "car terms" it's chasing Boomer budgets and sucking up to the old guys that can afford the "Green" premium on purchase cost by pandering to their 454 V8 childhoods. Next up, scratch-and-sniff dash panels that stink of smokey exhaust... blown rings... hot rubber...

l0cK

[redorblack]

I've got a complaint... your EV went by and I could still hear the birds singing... Oh yeah, and because of you damn treehuggers there ARE birds singing.

[Pure]

I'd rather have a louder stereo than wasted money on fake motor noise. It wouldn't take much wattage in respect to a car battery, and they would def hear you coming.

[melodious]

Regular bikes don't make the sounds that alert others your approaching. But I would heartily accept a generated sound on an ebike simply as a telltale sign to the unknowing that this is the future. I would like the option to turn it off though only because I like to hear nothing but what's around me (i.e. nature) or what I want to hear around me (i.e. music). I wouldn't mind having that same Audi e-sound applied to a bike. But let's be creative, since music is about creativity and make sounds that befit the bike.

I think you should categorize the bikes first: performance, utility, commuter, etc...

Then make sounds for each of them. Then let the rider decide which sound fits them.

I already know what to base my sound on...the tritone. JK.

[parabellum]

Soon we will be forced to imitate smoke and CO2 emission to be road legal. I would put farting sound or ICE cranking misfiring sound.

[lostrack]

Ah, you're all associating sounds with unwanted operational side effects.

WIth this sort of thing, some taste, restraint, and a skilled sound designer, you can design sounds that make peoples jaws drop. It doesn't have to be in-your face either.

I think some sort of sci-fi idling sound would be awesome to have, plus a launch sound.

I love the fact that right now, so many people are interested, you can mix a bit of magic in and it all adds to the mystery:)


ps. Benedini system is cool. 8 bit 22khz though, hella lofi

[Kingfish]

The audible noise made by the controller and motor is to me like the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard, or the grating sound of someone dragging a square-head shovel face-down on a rough sidewalk. It does not appeal to me.

There are however alternatives that are useful in public, such as a modest tone made at startup – sort of like how the light rail in Seattle makes a tone as it departs a station. Could this be practical on an ebike where we’re stopping frequently? Maybe not. Perhaps a warble could be produced, closer to subsonic where you could feel it inside an adjacent car. I don’t have a plan to engage a particular sound on my future ride other than silence, however I concede the need when traveling cross-country to ward off potential trouble with road-crossing wildlife.

Brainstorming is good, KF

[johnrobholmes]

I agree, the high frequency of some controller and hub combinations is not pleasant. I like least of all the Castle startup routine. Their sensored into sensorless transition is good though, only found on the Mamba Max Pro.

What I don't like about pushing extra sound through the motor is wasted energy. Any sound being produced takes energy that didn't convert into motion. Therefore, wouldn't the motor run hotter as well?


The thought of a deep rumble as I take off is enticing though. Now I need a 10" diameter rotor to make an effective low frequency speaker I suppose hub motors could work well.

[Kingfish]

JRH, you have me thinking about that one ES-post (youtube vid) some time ago where a guy created a circuit that mapped the motor rpm of his dinky little eco car through a cassette-audio and made it sound like a Camaro, Mustang, T-Bird, whatever. It was funny as hell as he shifted through the gears sounding like he had 1200 horses under the hood.

Just about any surface can be made to resonate if there’s sufficient area, and with the use of low-power piezoelectronics, well – it’s possible kit something out. What about leveraging down- or seat-tube instead of the hub covers? Set up a little 2-tone harmonic chamber… Make what you want: Call of the Wild, Born to be Wild, or just… Wild & Crazy!

Hmmm, I might go for something more sublime, like the buzzing of fireflies or chirping crickets. Not mosquitoes though, nope.

Fiddlin’ about, KF

[parabellum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... BQ9lei_24Y

[Kingfish]

Ok ok… I see what can be done here:
2WD, 6 phases, enough for a magical midi leprechaun band! If we modify the PWM above 22 kHz for drive, then overlay a sound track which can be AM for volume and FM for fidelity, I think we could be on towards creating a full orchestra! Am I right, huh, am I right?

For some reason I have visions of hawking pharms on the Boardwalk: "Come get yer magical mystery tour, right here..."

Wild! My mind is blazing with possibilities... and I haven't had a beer yet
Perhaps we could do better! KF

[liveforphysics]

High performance electric motors sound amazing.

Test ride a 2012 zero S or DS and tell me you don't love the sound. Its like part Jetsons flying car, part turbine spooling.

Its also 100% just the natural sound the drive train makes.

[amberwolf]

Personally, I'm annoyed by even the sound the tires make on the road. The wind noise is bad enough, too. But I can't get rid of either of those, without enclosing the whole bike in a heavy, hot, sound-damping shell, or putting earplugs in, both of which would be stupid because they remove my ability to hear the environment around me, and be able to tell what's happening by sound.

I sure don't want any of the sounds that I can eliminate be required to be added back in!


I still think the answer is not to add noises, but to quiet everything else down, and teach people to not wear earbuds when on roadways, paths, etc., since whatever they're listening to on them seems to melt their brain and prevent them from noticing even the loudest horns, tires screeching, etc.

I have seen so many people come THAT close to being run over because they weren't paying ANY attention to what goes on around them, often but not always while wearing earbuds or headphones. Cars zooming along on the roadway, and joggers just suddenly turn and jog right off into traffic for no explicable reason, without looking AT ALL. Same thing for walkers and even cyclists, but especially the joggers with headphones/earbuds.

I think a part of the problem is that they are listening to their own stuff, and everything outside of that becomes background noise that they pay no attention to. Even emergency vehicles' sirens, and extremely loud truck horns do not get their attention, as I generally see zero reaction to such things.

Sometimes I don't see any reaction to even visual things like cars suddenly turning into a driveway right in front of them. I have seen someone walk right into a line of cars that were turning continuously into a parking lot, and bounce right off the bumper of the next car coming in, which couldn't possibly have stopped in time (because many drivers do not slow down enough, if at all, when approaching a turn-off or entering driveways, so they cannot react to whatever turns out to be present there, whcih they typically can't see until they reach the turn). Pretty obviously they weren't even looking *or* listening, as many of the cars on the road were honking at the ones turning and "slowing them down".

People that are paying attention don't seem to have any problem avoiding being run over, at least in cases where the vehicles aren't going so fast that you couldn't have seen them coming anyway, especially where they are going against a traffic control, etc. I watch people in parking lots quite a bit, when I'm out riding, at the store, or even at work when I'm cashiering since I'm right at the front windows of the store. Only the oblivious ones come close to getting (or actually do get) hit. All the others stop short of getting in the way, and though it might seem close it's not. It doesn't make any difference if the vehicles are silent (like a regular bicycle speeding along on the sidewalk in front of the store doors) or very loud (like a monster-thumping-stereo car or a roaring motorcycle suddenly zooming right thru the stop sign), people paying attention seem able to easily avoid the collisions, while people that are not paying attention for whatever reason are either nearly hit or actually do get hit, a fair percentage of the time.


So I really don't think noises from a car or a bike are going to help most of the cases where a collision could occur between anyone or anything. Properly paying attention to the world around you is the only good way to avoid collisions, as far as I can tell.

[parabellum]

I have seen so many people come THAT close to being run over because they weren't paying ANY attention to what goes on around them, often but not always while wearing earbuds or headphones.

I am in favor of natural selection process as well! No to artificial sound!

[Arlo1]

I was thinking about this as I was at work today with the door open. I could only hear the tires only on most cars driving by at ~90-110km/h. Meening the engine noise on most new cars in almost non existant. I think they are over thinking this. People need to learn to stay out of the way of cars and car drivers need to be aleart!

[LegendLength]

As a purist I find the electric motor itself sounds the best:

[gogo]

EU regulations are now / soon will be, asking for every electric car to emit a generated sound under 15mph.

Are there studies that justify/identify this need? Shouldn't something like this apply equally to any vehicle, electric or otherwise? After all, we have the ability to attenuate most sound on any given vehicle. There have to be more "dangerously quiet" non-electrics than electrics on the streets.

And what about deaf people? Shouldn't there be a visual equivalent for them? A visually based system might be more effective in noisy situations, anyway. Something like the variable strobe brake light from the late 70's but white for acceleration and red for deceleration and both displayed on the front and rear.

There are at least two other threads here discussing this issue. I vote for ice cream truck sound or Jetson's car.

[Toshi]

I was thinking about this as I was at work today with the door open. I could only hear the tires only on most cars driving by at ~90-110km/h. Meening the engine noise on most new cars in almost non existant. I think they are over thinking this. People need to learn to stay out of the way of cars and car drivers need to be aleart!

The fake sounds being added purportedly for safety are for parking lot speeds, where road thrum and wind noise are nonexistent. In these situations a car not running its ICE engine (if it even has one) can sneak up on pedestrians easily.

That said, I think the idea is regulation for regulation's sake. Much bigger fish to fry.

With regard to the Audi e-tron's sound from the OP, I'm not a fan. I don't want the fake rendition of a jet engine spooling up whenever I take off from a stop. Motor and controller whine is enough for me, and thankfully I find it pleasant.

[Arlo1]

I was thinking about this as I was at work today with the door open. I could only hear the tires only on most cars driving by at ~90-110km/h. Meening the engine noise on most new cars in almost non existant. I think they are over thinking this. People need to learn to stay out of the way of cars and car drivers need to be aleart!

The fake sounds being added purportedly for safety are for parking lot speeds, where road thrum and wind noise are nonexistent. In these situations a car not running its ICE engine (if it even has one) can sneak up on pedestrians easily.

That said, I think the idea is regulation for regulation's sake. Much bigger fish to fry.

With regard to the Audi e-tron's sound from the OP, I'm not a fan. I don't want the fake rendition of a jet engine spooling up whenever I take off from a stop. Motor and controller whine is enough for me, and thankfully I find it pleasant.

WHat Im getting at is a lot of ICE cars are near silent at those speeds now a days as well.