A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.

Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:19 pm

Hi. Got the materials purchased for blocks, bits and pieces to put battery together. I have negotiated the price for PCB, it should end up being cheaper, not by much but cheaper. I will recalculate and post prices as soon as i will get the invoice, prob. mid week. Connectors i got looks good, they are clip on so should stay connected, big enough to solder BMS wires to and small enough to fit :) I have ordered extra sets just in case someone wants them. Was going through layout, found an error, opening for cell tabs was .2mm wider than it should be, all fixed now. Had time to lay 16S board as well. All checked and sent out for manufacturer.
I will have 4 extra sets of 6S, 2 sets of 4S, 1 set of 24S and 2 sets of 16S (*NEW*) and 1 or 2 sets of 12S.
Cheers
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:42 pm

agniusm wrote:Hi. Got the materials purchased for blocks, bits and pieces to put battery together. I have negotiated the price for PCB, it should end up being cheaper, not by much but cheaper. I will recalculate and post prices as soon as i will get the invoice, prob. mid week. Connectors i got looks good, they are clip on so should stay connected, big enough to solder BMS wires to and small enough to fit :) I have ordered extra sets just in case someone wants them. Was going through layout, found an error, opening for cell tabs was .2mm wider than it should be, all fixed now. Had time to lay 16S board as well. All checked and sent out for manufacturer.
I will have 4 extra sets of 6S, 2 sets of 4S, 1 set of 24S and 2 sets of 16S (*NEW*) and 1 or 2 sets of 12S.
Cheers



I'm definitiovely intersted in the 2 16s !

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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby ohzee » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:33 pm

Looks good - I have 22 of these cells now with 10 more next week.. itching to get them hooked up and have it looking good.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:57 pm

I know that itch ohzee :D. I will reserve then 2 16S for Doctorbass. It will be a clean pack. Depending on BMS, you can drill top pcb and bolt it on to the pack with plastic spacers.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:48 pm

Have updated the prices, still might be slightly off but close.
4S - 59.41USD
6S - 65.90USD
12S - 90.21USD
16S - 105.25USD
18S - 113.37USD
24S - 136.85USD
30S - 160.01USD

+ packaging and shipping. I don't know if paypal charges or not, will need to check that. Again, i will know exact price when i get parts. 4 extra sets of 6S, 2 sets of 4S, 1 set of 24S and 1 or 2 sets of 12S will be in stock.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:38 pm

Some people asking about 2P configuration of various S configurations. The kit is semi modular, so you can get that by using 2 kits. Here is an example of 6S2P:
Image
Image
Its just a matter of getting some copper sheet, drilling it 8.5mm and cutting it to join, then usual bolts on top.
I will be offering 2S as well after first bulk is made, possibly larger configurations if there is some interest, not til June thou.
Thanks for support and points, i take them in to consideration.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby Kin » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:36 pm

Just curious- Have you ever considered checking how expensive it would be to do this 2D lasercut from some cheap material? You could just make grooves for wire to lay down manually for the balance taps.

But if you end up getting a decent price on the PCBs, don't mind me! Just a side thought...It's less integrated/automatic, but it's hardly more difficult to lay down wires in a groove and maybe add a drop or two of superglue. And 2D lasercutting for certain materials can be much cheaper.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:17 pm

Kin wrote:Just curious- Have you ever considered checking how expensive it would be to do this 2D lasercut from some cheap material? You could just make grooves for wire to lay down manually for the balance taps.

But if you end up getting a decent price on the PCBs, don't mind me! Just a side thought...It's less integrated/automatic, but it's hardly more difficult to lay down wires in a groove and maybe add a drop or two of superglue. And 2D lasercutting for certain materials can be much cheaper.


Agreed, I can make as you suggested, but my intention it to make something that lasts, and is user friendly, with minimal effort to assemble battery pack. I'm not looking customers who are looking for a dirt cheap solution, rather customers who like/need clean and easy install.
Second point, i am making bulks, so getting better price on PCB, and if you would do it yourself, you'd end up paying slightly more and wasting your time on designing PCB etc. There are junkyard projects here on forum and I admire them for what they are and creativity people put in to them, but this is not it, and i pay extra for stainless bolts, brass and rose coating just to make it better. I did mine as you suggested with wires no connectors but its a pain, and a lot of time spent assembling the pack + more if one cell goes bad. This is eliminated on this kit and should make pack building a breeze.
Last point, if there were single configuration, say 12S, and 1000 kits ordered and paid the price would drop significally and there fore i cant buy stuff in large quantities and then make it if there is no interest, will end up bone deep broke and with kits to build electric jumbo jet ;)
Short version - custom always cost a little extra! :)
Prices were above my last post, will repeat myself:
4S - 59.41USD
6S - 65.90USD
12S - 90.21USD
16S - 105.25USD
18S - 113.37USD
24S - 136.85USD
30S - 160.01USD
Cheers for suggestions thou.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby docnjoj » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:36 am

When would be a good time to start paypal and do you have any delivery schedule yet?
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm

Hi. Blocks will be routed this week, and i hope i will get them threaded manualy till PCB`s will be done. I will comfirm on PCB completion date tomorrow. Rest components accuired. SS bolts will be getting beggining of the next week. cheers
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm

Hi. Blocks will be routed this week, and i hope i will get them threaded manualy till PCB`s will be done. I will comfirm on PCB completion date tomorrow. Rest components accuired. SS bolts will be getting beggining of the next week. cheers
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby johnrobholmes » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:41 pm

What are the chances of a few more 24s kits being made? I need two.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:14 am

Hi. At the moment i cant tell for sure. I doubt that i will have enough material, possible thou.

Looks like PCB are nearly finished and will be done by Friday. There is slight delay on brass blocks regarding Firm moving to another location but shouldn't take any longer than few days. Rest people who are interested can PM me with what they need and i will have that in mind for the next run. I understand that summer is here and everyone wants it fast. I do all in my power to deliver fastest possible, sorry if i cant make it any faster.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:49 am

Hi, received brass threaded bar for end terminals. Blocks should be ready on Tuesday next week and PCB's later today. I thought i will do a vid on tube like a manual on "how to assemble the kit in to a pack" i think it would be more informative than paper manual.
Brass threaded bar for end terminals:
Image
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:03 am

Making updated list of Kits needed:

docnjoj 2 x 6S kits
ohzee 4 x 6S kits
ambroseliao 1 x 12S kit
Kristoffer 2 x 12S kits
Doctorbass 2 x 16S
totinen 1 x 24S kit

There is 6 x 6S kits available and 1 x 4S kit.
Thanks
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby docnjoj » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:51 am

Thanks! I appreciate the update and would like to see the video.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:54 pm

Here is a vid guys for some ideas to make a drilling jig for cells, starts @ 00:44:40:

I have seen this method of connection, rough for my taste and untidy but that's just my opinion.
For a tight fit you will need 3.5mm drill bit, for looser fit 4mm should do. I will post the dimensions when i get the stuff to be exact. Warning: do not use any long conductor material as you will get shorts!!! I was trimming my tabs with long scissors and burned tabs. Anyhow, that should be in my vid on assembling the pack. Cheers
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby deVries » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:54 pm

agniusm wrote:I thought i will do a vid on tube like a manual on "how to assemble the kit in to a pack" i think it would be more informative than paper manual.

Yes! :D Excellent idea! Look forward to your video. 8)

Congratulations for doing these before your marriage! :P Congratulations on marriage too. :mrgreen:

I guess this means the next batch will be sometime in June? :?:

Guys, look forward to your battery build threads using these parts.

Btw, I think you said using copper one could pull 70amps. Does this mean 70amps per pouch/cell or ? :?:
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:53 pm

Thanks. Its hard to say what one can pull from the pack. The formula is too complicated and too many factor to take into account and i am thinking of testing it but still have no idea on how to pull 100A at 6S? I meant the whole pack, not pulling 70A from single cell. The thing with copper is it is soft and you would easily damage threads. Thats why i'm using brass. It is around 12mm long from the tabs going through M8. If there will be interest i will do second batch in may. Cheers
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby Kin » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:25 pm

I'm not sure about pulling 100A, but one of the ways people pull higher loads without a bigass resistor is with banks of halogen lights. The halogen lights act as resistors, but also are heat sinking themselves by putting out some of that energy as visible light and projected heat.

I don't know how precisely to go about it, though, because the resistance isn't as constant as a resistor within parameters. Alternatively, for ~$15 you can buy (6) 100 watt resistors from ebay.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby SamRam » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:40 am

Sweeeeeet. I definitely look forward to this simple and genious wiring solution. :-)
Just a quick question, do the traces connecting to the bms experience a high current, or does this power only come from the minimal amount of balancing from the bms?

I have muked around with a ping battery bms, and understand the basic operation. I am just unsure of the loads and actual wiring of my new pack. Could anyone point me in the direction of internet based learning for bms hookup?
Please and thanks

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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:54 am

Kin wrote:I'm not sure about pulling 100A, but one of the ways people pull higher loads without a bigass resistor is with banks of halogen lights. The halogen lights act as resistors, but also are heat sinking themselves by putting out some of that energy as visible light and projected heat.

I don't know how precisely to go about it, though, because the resistance isn't as constant as a resistor within parameters. Alternatively, for ~$15 you can buy (6) 100 watt resistors from ebay.

Thanks. For 100a test i would need 44 resistors @100 wats. to complicated and expensive for single test. I can get thou 500w heat bulbs but whats going on with voltage? they are rated at 240V and i would feed 43.8V tops.

Sam, there is little current going throug balancing traces, i will give you max suported on a trace on my kit.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:54 am

Some good and bad news. PCB's are ready and i am going to pick them up on Monday. CNC firm contacted me to let me know that they broke lots of bits on their CNC and will take them till May to get replacements. I sourced 5 other companies and sent them request for part manufacture and quote. Hope this will be quick. My apologies for the setback. Will be informing as i get news.

Sam, BMS witing is simple, i thought you should of got wiring diagram from PING? Well, here are few examples on wiring:
http://visforvoltage.org/files/u2627/bms_wiring.jpg
http://bmsbattery.com/330-582-thickbox/lifepo4lithium-ion-smart-bms-for-513-cells-in-series.jpg
http://www.ecitypower.com/download/Collection%20of%20AE%204S-8S%20BMS%20Discharge%20and%20charge%20together%20Circuit.jpg
Sometimes so called smart BMS need positive thin wire connected to BMS for MCU to operate properly.

P.S. PCB traces would hold 3A current.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby docnjoj » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:56 am

I have a question about the Signalab/Ping BMS. I have used them for years and have very little problem (except when I left the battery alone for a couple of months :( ) I then had to rebuild a 48 volt pack to a split 36 volt pack and it was interesting and a good learning experience. It is still in use 2 years later.

OK the question since Ping BMS allows the cells to go up to 3.9 volts as it balances, is this damaging to the cells? My 14 cells are on the way and I need to get as much info as possible to build the pack with agnisms kit. I am planning to use the Ping BMS.
Thanks in advance.
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Re: A123 AMP20M1HD-A Battery pack kit

Postby agniusm » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:23 am

The limits for lifepo4 chemistry are 2.0V bottom and 3.65 Top, so yes it does damage your cells in some way. Possibly shortening cell life. Most case scenario lithium batteries would like better to be discharged above 2.0V limit and charged without hitting top limit. This way you will get more cycles out of them.

I had some spare time to think about the "P" setup requested. It is an early draft, but sharing anyways. It should come out little more costly as i would need to use pure copper for outside clamps as current will flow between paralleled cells in series. End terminal blocks as well out of copper, as 2P, 4P will allow to pull tons of current.
Here is 2P6S setup:
Image

2P6S board size is 78x160mm compared to 48x160mm in 6S configuration
End terminals would come out through protective plate and The Builder would have a choice to drill it where he needs it, the size he needs it to be and trim it
Cheers
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