A-Lines Abound: Electric drive implosion

[zombiess]

Damn! That's one helluva rear swing arm extension!

If you mean mine, it's 8" longer, but the stock one was pretty short. It's still a wheelie monster if I feed it any power at low speeds or even up to 20mph if you hit the throttle fast on the 75% or 105% setting and accidentally weight shift back a little from the jolt the front will start to come up. On my ride home from work yesterday I must have had the front end off the ground at least 6 times unintentionally. Only 1-2 inches at lower speeds, but enough that it worries me. I think my throttle control project just moved up the list on priorities.

[MattyCiii]

Pressin' out the old bushing, replacing it with a bearing.

On top of the shock: The old bushing sticks out the side. On the bottom, the socket driver is larger than the bushing but small enough to brace the shock mount point evenly on all sides:


A couple quick turns and things are going fine. The bushing is near flush with the shock body:


To press the bushing and its collar out of the shock, I use a smaller socket driver. This 10mm driver has an outside diameter smaller than the hole in th shock, but larger than the parts I want to press out. I just need to ensure everything is centered and ease on the pressure...


All is well... The driver has broken the plane of the shock's mount hole without me destroying the shock. Huzzah!


Quick check - Take it out of the vice to check all is going well...



Back in the vice - line everything up - gentle pressure - check again:


I got close to bottoming the 10mm socket before the bushing came out. So, Plan B: A small clamp that just happens to fit...


But after a bank-shot off the face, I notice the clamp is not up to the job...


Bushing collar - whatever it's called - is almost out


OK, off camera there was some twisting with channel lock pliers, and some hammering...

Bushing parts gone!

Here's the replacement. Looks identical doesn't it? But it's a needle roller bearing, not a bushing. So there!


Pressing it in is about the same process as pressing the bushing out. Here's the final assembly: Bearing is pressed into the shock. Inside that is a hardened surface for the bearing rollers to mate with. Inside that is a 6mm ID to 8mm OD spacer (I won't be using this as my mount holes/bolts are 8mm OD).



Not much effort, and only $40 invested I have what purports to be a very nice suspension upgrade.

When I get back home I'll install it into the A-line and post some pic-porn.

[MattyCiii]

<sound of crickets chirping in the background... chirp! chirp! chirp! ... suddenly interrupted>
<cough!>

Progress update - or more correctly, update on the lack of progress!
Since I do plan to pedal this beast, I decided to fit it with enough gearing range to drag it up hills and plow it through the air on padal power alone. I went and purchased a Schlumpf Speed Drive (errr - the Taiwanese version) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37269. I keep making that "first build" mistake of not using my time wisely. I should have spent some of the time I waited for the drive (which was delightfully short by the way for something coming over from Europe) to look around for an installer. I'll hopefully have an installer lined up in the next few days and the drive installed by next week.

[MattyCiii]

Latest update:
ATS drive installation progresses slowly http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37269.

I've chamfered the bottom bracket - got a pile of aluminum shavings on the back patio. Once I receive my order of 4mm spacers from Utah Trikes, I'll be able to do the install, and have the next step complete... the bottom bracket.

[MattyCiii]

Some limited forward progress to report.

I bought the A-Line frame when I was bitten by the "replaceable dropouts" craze that hit several ES members this past winter. But from the start it was always a stretch whether other efforts would suit my needs: Most people were creating dropout replacements for hub motors. From the start, my plan has been to build the bike with a left-side RC drive and NuVinci hub. So my notional dropout replacements would be something like the two pictures below. My thought being, I can simplify my dropout design by using off-the-shelf modular components that give me dropout, derailleur (== chain tensioner) hanger, and disc brake mounts. These are pics pulled off the web that I used as a design guide:



So drawing on inspiration/ideas from Oatnet, Magudaman, Andje, Sn0wychild, and help from Adam333 and especially Fractal, my path led to a custom design of my own and fabrication by emachineshop.com (I plan to create a "review" thread of emachineshop.com in the near future - but the bottom line up front is it's a great service, thumb's up).

My custom dropouts give me about 3" more length and 1" more height than the originals. The right side replacements showed up Friday and the left sides should arrive early next week. Here's the thing mounted, with of course the original in the background:


Why the extra holes? Well they only added a couple of bucks to the order, so why not? The smaller holes on the upper edge (tapped for M5 bolts) are for possibly mounting a mudguard in the future. Anyone know a good 22" diameter, 3" wide mudguard? The larger hole is tapped for M8 and is there for whatever - I was thinking possibly a mount for a trailer hitch. I suppose if I was smarter I would have made the diameter and thread pitch the same as the original A-Line holes, making my A-Line dropouts literally able to accommodate a downhill hub as was original. Live and learn.

More pics:
The mount holes on the new and old are vertically aligned. Big difference!


Comparing the insides: I had some material cut out but not nearly as deep as the original. Strength over lightness. When in doubt, over design. Note the custom parts, when mounted, are 150mm between the inside faces. The bolt-on modular parts by (from Paragon Machine Works) are 7mm thick, taking me close enough to the 135mm spacing the NuVinci needs.


Comparing the outside faces:


One more pic of the dropout, mounted. It's a really tight fit! I had to do a light sanding in a couple of places, no big deal. These will be a bugger to take off- but I won't ever need to take them off, so I don't mind.


So I'm waiting eagerly for the UPS man early next week. Once I get the left side dropout assembly installed, I'll be able to mount the rear wheel and at least have a bike I can ride rolling down hill (electric and human power propulsion still awaiting some parts...)

[MattyCiii]

One more angle on that replacement dropout assembly:


After looking at all the pix I notice I don't have any shots of the back side and how closely that mates to the original. Where did I leave that camera...

[adam333]

The piece look great!

I am curious about the price from this supplier. I didn't know they exist. Pretty cool to get a quote online.

[fractal]

hey matt!!! great work!!! im very happy for you!!! they look great. mine will be ready next week. its been a challenge but seeing the results sure feels good.

[MattyCiii]

I am curious about the price from this supplier. I didn't know they exist. Pretty cool to get a quote online.

Adam, the price was in the same ball park as the prices you researched for David and I. I would have paid $236 for one copy of each side, but decided I'd "buy in volume and save". I got 3 of each side for $295 each side, total cost $590. So now I have some small aluminum sculpture pieces More details here: Machining service: eMachineShop.com (A user review)

hey matt!!! great work!!! im very happy for you!!! they look great. mine will be ready next week. its been a challenge but seeing the results sure feels good.

Thanks! One of the reasons I "branched off" from our previous combined effort was the hassle of re-doing all those STL files. I know my best bet was to re-draw from scratch, and so went with the eMachineShop CAD tool. I can't wait to see how yours turn out. I'm also quite pleases with the whole experience of eMachineShop.

[MattyCiii]

Side 2 arrived today. About a half hour later I got it installed.



Glamor shot - both custom dropout pieces installed...


Here's the rest of the assembly - modular dropouts from Paragon Machine Works.


I added 0.1mm all around to my measurements to ensure a snug - not loose fit. Man, that was just about perfect. It had to be pressed in, but with hand strength only:


The washer:


The first bolt:


When fully tight, the bolts are totally inset:


A shot of the inside. That gap is so small you can't slide a sheet of paper in that gap.

[MattyCiii]

Here's the whole thing, also posted n the first page.



In my rush to mount the rear wheel to go for a test roll, I put it on backwards! Also note the rear brake mounted to the front. Don't ask, that'll be righted soon.

The huge space in the triangle in front of the rear wheel is where the Shumaker drive and Astro 3220 will go...

[MattyCiii]

The bike is too squat for cranks!

I can't say I wasn't warned, but the bike is too short when I put 180lbs of me on the seat. 172.5mm cranks will touch the ground. Matters will get worse when I add batteries, etc.

Strategies for "heightening"

• I have 155mm cranks on order, but that only buys me 1/3 of an inch. Enough that I won't scrape earth when sitting still, but too close for comfort if I'm pedaling when the suspension compresses.
• My rear shock is currently 9.5". I can make this longer:
  • I can gain an some height by getting the longest Fox DHX at 10.5" (Do bicycle shocks come in any greater length?). But an inch in the shock translates to (far) less than an inch in height, right?
  • I can maybe go for a scooter shock, like this one. It's 12" long and $100 - two great reasons to at least consider it. Down sides are uncertainty in my ability to mate it with the bicycle mount points, and the fact that every inch I add to the shock changes the suspension geometry, with possible bad side effects. What else should I consider?
• Larger wheels. I think this is a no-brainer, upgrading to 18" moped wheels should gain me about 2" in height, right?

I'd love to hear from the community on this one!

[sn0wchyld]

hehe... 'i told you so' sorry couldnt resist!

yea i'm not really happy with mine, and thats with a 26 front and 17mx rim rear (22 inch effective). I cant pedal on corners or through any bumps, and the loss of rollover height is a bit of a pain too.

How hard would it be to make some new 'dropout' sections to those dropouts? ie remake the black smaller part of those dropouts to add an inch or so of height?

Also, is your front shock at its max height? I've added about 2cm to mine just by moving the clamps up the shock.

You can also add an inch to your travel (so maybe .5 inches to your ride height) by choosing the lower of the two mounting holes for the rear shock.

Finally, check your sag %. since this is primarily a onroad bike you might be able to go with say 25 or 30% sag rather than the usual 40ish. should be able to gain a inch or two there too!

good luck mate.

ps

are you sure the shock is supposed to be in that way? or doesnt it matter? on my norko its got the resovware on the top. being round that way opens up some more space in the triangle...

[Timma2500]

MattyCiii,

Awsome build mate! Those dropouts are fantastic, so clean and an elegant solution!

Going with a longer rear shock will more than likely need a longer fork to balance the height gain to keep your head angle where it should be.
It'd be worth looking into exactly how much extra length you would gain by going to normal DH forks, it may be less than you think as those Leftys look fairly long already.

Where as going to larger rims and tyres stands to gain you anywhere from 2" to 3" in height depending on your diameter choice.
I'd go with the bigger rims for sure. Someone on the site would surely buy your current wheels to help get back some valuable ca$h.

Just my 2c, hope it helps

Paul

[etard]

Did I hear somebody say they were gonna sell their rims??

That sucks man, personally I would go with bigger wheels for aesthetic reasons alone, it looks kinda funky in current guise. Those dropouts are real nice, I'm jealous! One option might be to put a bigger wheel on front and then use those two front shock mount holes to build an extension tower that would jack the rear triangle down an equivalent amount so that your head angle stays the same. Another option is pegs instead of pedals.

[MattyCiii]

hehe... 'i told you so' sorry couldnt resist!

me:

are you sure the shock is supposed to be in that way? or doesnt it matter? on my norko its got the resovware on the top. being round that way opens up some more space in the triangle...

In its final form I'd like to ride with the reservoir on the bottom, giving me more space in the triangle for LiPo. But until I mount batteries, I can play:

• I can't presently use that "lower mount hole" because the reservoir will bump the cable mount points down inside the seat stay. Of course I can always just grind them off with the dremel tool...
• What I can and should do is ride the bike with the reservoir up, and with it down, and see if there's any difference. That and comb the Internet for opinions. I'd hate to be using the shock wrong and ruin it just to gain a little space.

MattyCiii,
Someone on the site would surely buy your current wheels to help get back some valuable ca$h.

I wish! The problem is what I've built is so extremely specialized. Lefty hub up front is not standard - heck, the spoke length is different on the left than the right. In the back is a NuVinci, pigeon-holing that wheel into the RC build niche. So starts the "spare parts pile" so many e-bike veterans cultivate...

Just my 2c, hope it helps

Definitely!

...personally I would go with bigger wheels for aesthetic reasons alone, it looks kinda funky in current guise.

I second that! I thought I'd need all that extra room out back to fit my planned RC drive, but with it all built up it's clear I can spare at least 2" out back. Plenty of room up front too.

One option might be to put a bigger wheel on front and then use those two front shock mount holes to build an extension tower that would jack the rear triangle down an equivalent amount so that your head angle stays the same.

I really like that idea. It should not be too hard to fabricate said extension tower.

Another option is pegs instead of pedals.

When built this thing will be a beast to pedal, but (as all novice e-bikers say...) I do plan to pedal it a lot.

[adam333]

The price is pretty good.

Larger wheels. I think this is a no-brainer, upgrading to 18" moped wheels should gain me about 2" in height, right?

I would also consider bigger wheels personally. I'm using 26 inches front and back on mine and I like the fact I can pedal in curves. ( I "fake pedal" mine just to avoid drawing too much attention on the cycling trail ) Next step is to find a schlumpf rep that is still open in the Montreal region....

About your rack fixation on the bike, I used this system on my previous one, and had a lot of issue having it swing left and right with about 15 pound on it. I would go with something more stable personally. If only the controller is going there, it could be fine though.

[MattyCiii]

Thanks Adam. I have 18" moped rims, tires and tubes on the way. Once they arrive, I can measure the ERD and get spokes. Then I'll be building me some new, larger wheels!

Anticipation...

[MattyCiii]

Measure twice, cut once.

Remember when I said this?

Larger wheels. I think this is a no-brainer, upgrading to 18" moped wheels should gain me about 2" in height, right?

About 5 days after placing my order for all the wheel parts, it hit me: moving from 16" rims to 18" rims won't gain me two inches in height, it'll gain me only one!

Epic Facepalm!

cat-facepalm_o_GIFSoup.com.gif (454.51 KiB) Viewed 381 times

But good luck was with me. My source for rims hadn't shipped yet (order successfully cancelled), and the supplier of my tires had them on backorder (also cancelled).

So now I have 21" wheels on order. Let me do the math out loud this time: 21"/2 = 10.5" new radius. 16"/2 = 8" old radius. Subtracting gives me a difference of 2.5". Damn that was easy - wish I could have gotten it right the first time!

[doc007]

Measure twice, cut once.

Remember when I said this?

Larger wheels. I think this is a no-brainer, upgrading to 18" moped wheels should gain me about 2" in height, right?

About 5 days after placing my order for all the wheel parts, it hit me: moving from 16" rims to 18" rims won't gain me two inches in height, it'll gain me only one!

Epic Facepalm!

cat-facepalm_o_GIFSoup.com.gif

But good luck was with me. My source for rims hadn't shipped yet (order successfully cancelled), and the supplier of my tires had them on backorder (also cancelled).

So now I have 21" wheels on order. Let me do the math out loud this time: 21"/2 = 10.5" new radius. 16"/2 = 8" old radius. Subtracting gives me a difference of 2.5". Damn that was easy - wish I could have gotten it right the first time!

I think you should also consider the tire thickness. Some tires are low profile (ex. road racing) and others are high profile (ex. downhilling, freeriding). With thicker tires you could easily gain an inch on the radius.

ps nice dropout design im sure someone will buy those "paperweights" off you to help offset your initial investment. cant hurt to post an ad in the for sale section. good luck! looking forward to see how the build progresses.

[neptronix]

145mm sinz cranks.



That's how i get clearance on my hardtail, which came with a rather low BB to start with.

Also, longer rear shock can get you some rear lift up. That's a downhill bike, so some rear lift could help it. Just an idea.

[MattyCiii]

I think you should also consider the tire thickness. Some tires are low profile (ex. road racing) and others are high profile (ex. downhilling, freeriding). With thicker tires you could easily gain an inch on the radius.

Thanks Doc. My new 21" rim is only 1.6" wide. A narrower rim should force a tire to be somewhat taller compared to mounting on a wider rim. All within reason of course. I have a 3" by 21" moped road tire on the way, hopefully the combination will work! It's hard to find 21" motorcycle/scooter/moped tires much narrower, and I can't go much wider than 3" wide without bicycle frame clearance issues...

ps nice dropout design im sure someone will buy those "paperweights" off you to help offset your initial investment. cant hurt to post an ad in the for sale section. good luck! looking forward to see how the build progresses.

Will do! Of course I have a very small audience to market to - 2009 A-Line owners - but never say die, right? Hopefully this build will come together nicely - and soon - giving me something to show potential customers, mainly a nice component of A-Line owners wanting to go RC.

145mm sinz cranks.

Thanks Nep! Unfortunately I backed myself into a corner on this build... I want to use a Schlumpf Speed Drive on this beast so I'm limited to the smallest Schlumpf (155mm) cranks. But the rear shock is still definitely an option. I can go up an inch and still use a bicycle shock, or if I need longer punt and go with a [url]dirt bike shock[/url], which allows me flexibility in mounting the reservoir to boot.

Driving around yesterday I hit a pothole that literally made my F150 jump laterally. I can't wait to try this bike on the same pothole at speed and see how it handles... It will be jarring certainly, but on the bike at least it won't shake my fillings loose...

[recumpence]

Guess what I have sitting here for you?

Matt

[MattyCiii]

Guess what I have sitting here for you?

Matt

THANKS Matt!!!
As soon as it's mounted I'll be posting pix for sure!

[MattyCiii]

One step closer to getting this project on the road:
I've completed my first Schlumpf/ATS drive installation. I'll hopefully get some good robust testing in on my "daily driver" Dahon folding bike, enough to decide whether to install a Speed Drive (1:1.6 overdrive) on the A-Line, or should I install a High Speed Drive (1:2.5 overdrive).

Considering how much weight and rotational inertia this bike will have, I plan to gear it way down. Actually I'd be smart to price some smaller chainrings and see what's available in case my 42t front/21t rear is not low enough. A High Speed Drive will allow me to pedal much more with the electric drive in parallel I think, but the Speed Drive has the advantage of - well, I already own one.