Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

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Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby hillzofvalp » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:59 pm

I am thinking of building a lower kv cromotor up into a 700c wide rim for my 29er. Has anyone had any experience with these rims? Would I be better off with a 24mm beefy 700c rim? These definitely look nice.. and I think they would allow me to better utilize the rubber.

kinda annoying that they are single wall.. but makes sense. They also have ones with no big holes that are beefier/heavier

pair is $140
http://www.allweathersports.com/winter/snowcats.html

In case anyone is wondering why the hell I'm using a 700c wheel.. it's because I want it to be utterly ridiculous--but still retain conventional 29er form factor. I think the cromotor is up to the task

Image
Last edited by hillzofvalp on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby mabman » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:14 am

I would suggest steering clear of the single wall rims for anything other than pure use on snow.

How about these? http://www.unicycle.com/nimbus-29-inch- ... -rim.html/

There are the Velocity Blunts which are 35mm and the Kris Holm unicycle rims also: http://www.krisholm.com/khu/rims

Any of these would do justice to the fattest tires currently available and beyond.
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby MadRhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:19 am

If you plan to ride the beach, snow or other soft terrain, they will be good. For performance with DH tires, 32 to 36mm wide rims are the best, more than that and your tire is not round enough to corner properly.
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby hillzofvalp » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:22 am

what's a good strong 700c rim? I have a velocity chukker 24mm rim on my 9C (deep v rim)... but Idk what would be most appropriate on a cromotor.
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby MadRhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:33 am

I like the Sun Ringle MTX 33 for a 29er. The lacing job is more important than the rim itself IMO.
I just laced my Cro-motor with custom made rim washers and flange washers, that is a patience job, but one can feel instantly how stiff it is.
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby hillzofvalp » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:25 pm

pics/thread about the washers you speak of? I work in a cnc lab
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby MadRhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:07 pm

Sorry, no thread or pic yet. I killed all my cameras, and my phone too.
Very simple though, here's the procedure for me, I don't have access to any machining facilities.

Rim washers

Start with stainless washers that are adequate for the nipple diameter.
Shave two third of the thickness on one side, so the top of the washer has an angle when you look at the edge.
Grind the countersink for the nipple head to sit neatly, with a dremel stone or drill bit.
Shape the washer oval so it can be inserted inside the double wall rim.
Smooth the edges to avoid cutting the alu with the spoke tension.
Paint a red dot on the top high side of each washer, so you can see its position when it will be inside the rim.

Flange washer

Start with 5mm alu pop rivets
Cut the rivet slightly longer than the flange thickness
Slide it off the rivet nail
File the tip to the proper length, that would be three quarter of the flange thickness
Drill the countersink to match the spoke head, only deep enough so the rivet can pass the J bend with some fair pressure.
Shape the rivet conic with a file, until it enters the flange hole for most of its length, yet not completely.

Building

Remove the eyelets from the rim if it has some, shaving the top with a dremel until it cuts through, then punch them off.
Use a drill bit the same size as the spoke nipples, to pass it at an angle through each rim hole. Start at the valve hole, drill the two next holes to angle the spokes away from the valve hole, then reverse the angle for the next pair, and so on...
Insert spoke in flange washer
Press the washer to pass the J bend
Drill a hole of the axle size in a stool seat, to sit the motor flat on it
Insert all spokes in the motor flange from the outside
Put a drop of double boiled linseed oil on the thread of each spoke, or your favourite spoke prep
Arrange the spoke crossing pattern before starting to lace, this will avoid having to force some spokes to cross on top of another previously installed
You will need two extra spokes of the same gauge, their length doesn't matter, they will be used as tools
Pass one of the tool spoke through the rim from the inside to the outside, insert through one rim washer, screw in the nipple, then screw the second tool spoke at the nipple head.
Slide the rim washer on the inside spoke and push it inside the double wall of the rim
Push the nipple inside the rim, and play back and forth with inside and outside tool spokes until the nipple finds its way through the rim washer and the nipple hole.
Hold it seated and unscrew the inside tool spoke, then screw the nipple on the wheel spoke a few turns, hold the nipple and unscrew the outside tool spoke.

One is spoke done, repeat with all of them, screw each of them the same number of turns, and be careful to respect the lacing crossing pattern

With a screwdriver, screw opposite nipples alternatively, the same number of turns. until they start to be hard to turn.
Do the matching pair, the same way, keep the turn count.
When they are starting to offer some resistance, don't screw any further.
Screw each nipple the same number of turns that you counted with the first pair.

You have a wheel. It is near true but not tight nor dished.

Measure the dishing that you need to center the rim with the bike frame

With one of the tool spokes, turn each rim washer until the red dot can be seen on the side corresponding to the spoke closing angle
Start binding the spokes, each the same number of turns, on the side that you need to dish to.
When the screwdriver will start to slip off the nipple head because of both the resistance and the angle of the nipple
Screw the nipples of the other side, each the same number of turns alternatively, until the desired dishing is nearly achieved.
Punch each spoke head in the flange washers, hard enough to make the flange washer sit flat on the flange.
Tighten all nipples after making sure the red dot is still on the proper side, both sides the same number of turns of course.

You can install the rim band, tube and tire now, for the rest of the job will be done with a nipple key

Find a place to spin the wheel, it could be on the bike upside down.
Adjust the spoke tension accordingly, until the wheel is very close to true
Lay the wheel flat on the stool again and press each side with all your weight, repeat around the wheel, both sides
Back to truing the wheel again, you can give an extra punch on each spoke head, to sink it a tad further in the flange washer before final truing.

Ride the wheel, cornering hard, braking hard, then true it again

You have a good wheel, you deserved it :twisted:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby hillzofvalp » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:00 pm

Did you just really type all of that for us? Thanks! I've built a wheel before, so I know some. Without an illustration, I can't fully grasp what is actually going on with these rivets and washers... completely.

Don't you think adding these things will just cause a longer break-in period, and the wheel will lose tension and be the same as a normally built wheel? What is the mechanism here
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby MadRhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:19 pm

I typed it to replace the illustrations that I couldn't supply, and for those who'd like to try building their own DH racing wheel.

The mechanism, well.

The 12 ga spokes are too stiff for an MTB alu rim to stand the appropriate tension, hence the rim washers. They are angled because of the large diameter of the hub motor doesn't let the short spokes align properly with the nipples because of the excessive angle.

The flange holes of the Cro-motor are about the proper size for 10 ga spokes, the flange washers are to make them 12 ga spokes tight in the flange.

The result is: Sstraight spokes, stiff lacing, durable light weight wheel. It is much simpler to lace this motor in a moped rim, but the weight of moped tires and rims are a big turn off for performance.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby MadRhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:36 pm

hillzofvalp wrote:,,,Without an illustration, I can't fully grasp what is actually going on with these rivets and washers... completely.

I'll try to borrow a camera and post some pics
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby hillzofvalp » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:14 pm

No rush. I think I see what you're getting at. I will try that rim you mentioned.. This could easily be the largest diameter wheel a cromotor will ever see.
Last edited by hillzofvalp on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby full-throttle » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:18 pm

MadRhino wrote:I typed it to replace the illustrations that I couldn't supply
You know what they say - a picture is worth a 1,000 words ;)

Excellent write up - should be a sticky!
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby hillzofvalp » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:23 pm

MadRhino wrote:Use a drill bit the same size as the spoke nipples, to pass it at an angle through each rim hole. Start at the valve hole, drill the two next holes to angle the spokes away from the valve hole, then reverse the angle for the next pair, and so on...


This part I don't understand, because I thought you were supposed to alternate angles one by one. You describe it as 112211221122. I thought it was1212121... like on my velocity chukker deep v rim that came from the factory this way. What kind of lacing is this?
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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby MadRhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:46 pm

hillzofvalp wrote: What kind of lacing is this?

Plain single cross. Spokes of each side are matched pairs, hence the 2 consecutive rim holes with the same angle direction.

Next one I build, with the X54, will be a Crowfoot pattern.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby hillzofvalp » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:28 am

three cross or two cross? Is truing up a wheel with the lacing more difficult than single cross? I understand that it yields a stronger wheel. Won't I need to half radial lengthen spokes and half cross?
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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby MadRhino » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:46 am

A 2 cross Crowfoot makes for the max spoke angle that can be reasonably laced with a hub motor IMO. More than that would make the spokes rub on the flange or bend on each other.

Truing the wheel is the same work, no matter the lacing pattern. The only thing that can make truing a longer work, is a greater number of spokes.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby hillzofvalp » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:51 am

what general tension do you like to use with 12 gauge and large ERD hubs? I remember doing my 9c to 100-120 units of whatever.. but I think those were 13/14 gauge.
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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby MadRhino » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:09 am

I don't use a tensiometer. I play it by the ear so, no answer for that.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby MadRhino » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:33 pm

I just noticed that the laptop in the garage has a webcam, so I have some bad pictures.

Image

Image

Image

Image
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby hillzofvalp » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:20 pm

Please see me build thread to continue discussion about rim/tire choices. I am considering doing a 26" rear and 700c front.
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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby MadRhino » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:19 pm

hillzofvalp wrote:Please see me build thread to continue discussion about rim/tire choices. I am considering doing a 26" rear and 700c front.

69ers are tail kickers unless the frame is specific, some like it
Converting to 26 front and rear makes a better ride...
Needs a short crank

Gives the best choice of tires of course
As fat as fits, 2 ply hard casing clinchers
Rims 32 to 36mm DH specific
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby hillzofvalp » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:57 pm

I think I'm just going to go 700c x 33mm mtx 33.... This is a torquey motor, plus I already have some big 29er rubber and a bike that is made for the wheel. For the front I'll do the ebike rated schwalbe 28.5" x 1.75" energizer pro and then maybe compensate for difference from taller rear big apple by raising the front shock (Reba can be adjusted from 80mm to 100mm travel.
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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby kudos » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:08 am

Is that a Halo SAS rim ?

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Re: SnowCat 700c 45mm Rims: meh?

Postby hjns » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:56 am

MadRhino wrote:Sorry, no thread or pic yet. I killed all my cameras, and my phone too.
Very simple though, here's the procedure for me, I don't have access to any machining facilities.
......
You have a good wheel, you deserved it :twisted:


Great write-up MadRhino!!

I linked your post to the summary of great links in my noob first post here.
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Re: Good way to lace a powerful motor (and Rim choices)

Postby hillzofvalp » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:10 pm

Do you really think I need 12 gauge spokes for this? I am hearing that they maybe aren't necessary with a strong rim... and they can make the ride much harsher. I would like to mention that my 40mph bike is a hard tail.
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