Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[heathyoung]

Woah. Seriously - Woah!

I think I have found the ultimate batteries for the Vectrix!

Dimensions on these would be very useful, need 42 series which would be 6 of these modules. Needs to fit in a 700mm X 230mm X 300mm space.

Minimum order sucks though. Group buy anyone?

Are they selling samples? Thats so damn cool.

http://www.victpower.cn/product/5527665 ... odule.html

882mm + long - dang!

[deVries]

You are making a LOT of assumptions that could turn out to be wishful thinking.

Of course, everything I'm writing about these 7s3p modules regarding quality & condition is pure speculation & wishful thinking noted as: imo. IMO. At least Doctorbass is very pleased with these cells because of actual test results. It's likely the cells in the modules are at least as good if not better, IMO. imo.

For a bicycle it's awesome, because you won't have to cycle the battery often & have the hassle of recharging nearly as often as a 20Ah vs 60Ah.

OTOH if you only need 20AH you will be hauling around the size and weight of 20AH SLA .

A 48v 42 cell pack in 14s3p 60Ah is going to weigh in at about 44-lbs just for the cells, so this 60Ah setup is obviously *not* for some high performance maneuvering bicycle or trail bike unless we bump-up to motorcycle or dirt-moped format.

Hopefully, the 7s3p cells can be harvested separately to make 2p or 1p configurations too. For $283 + shipping one could get a 75v 20Ah pack at 22-lbs for the cells.

I said might be an awesome price because depending on the weight and dimensions the shipping premium could make up for the cheaper price. So when you inquire about size and weight please ask about shipping prices.

Yeah, this is very important to check this out fully. Shipping & customs can definitely change things vs bare cells.

Thanks! for your input. All good points. I'll remain optimistic for now...

[deVries]

BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

I also think there is some mix of quality in the cells. If I had to guess I would think the cells sold months ago with cut tabs might be the poorest. They were dumped first (perhaps) and neutered by a company that was more healthy. Then they dumped production stockpiles that were aging. These cells may not have had all the QA done on them. So they may have undetected problems. Now I would bet that cells that made it into modules are darn good cells.

Just to follow-up further with what your interesting speculation is (see above) I found out from a news release what was the cause of the defect:

"The cause of the defects described today was faulty calibration of one of four welding machines in the Michigan plant that caused misalignment of a component in some cells, Vieau (he is the President of AONE) said today. The flaw could cause an electrical short, which could result in premature failure of the battery or decrease performance and reduce battery life, he said."

This probably means, IMO, imo, that there will be a small percentage of these cells we are getting that WILL HAVE this defect. Using the NASA test for each cell we should be able to weed these out. I'm getting greedy now!

IF, yes, IF, we can harvest the good cells out of any defective module or good 7s3p, THEN we should get SUPER PRICING for these modules... AND, make good batteries by finding the 1%-10% that are defective, IMO, imo, of cells that are bad.

Here's the bottom line... A123 can not afford to find & replace the defective cells in the modules or batteries, so they are just going to dump all the gold & bits of coal en masse & be done with it. How big is this dump going to be? "Replacing the batteries and systems shipped globally from A123’s plant in Livonia, Michigan, will cost about $55 million and will be funded during the next several quarters, the company estimated. "

I think this is a golden opportunity to mine this gold... do I have "lithium fever"

Btw, at least some or all of these modules were likely destined for a super expensive e-vehicle: $107,000 Fisker Karma model. A123 said 5 customers were affected. I think these cells should be high quality except for the ones affected by the faulty laser alignment, imo, IMO.

[gensem]

subscribed

[puddleglum]

Anyone have any idea what A123 is using for a BMS? Apparently all modules come with one, right, so being able to use it would make the packs even more affordable. OTOH, Isn't it going to be a lot harder to check for weak cells, or do you guys know of a way to do it? I guess it might show up with the BMS, if it's accessible.

[peterperkins]

Xin has quoted me.

Price :42.8$ for 1s1p(FOB)

Price :283.3$ for 7S3P

Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p

Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P

Price :1066.6$ for 28s3p

Shipping to UK of 2 x 28S3P and 2x1S1P as $1050 Total price around £2000 about £11 per cell for UK not inc import duty and vat

They cannot /will not provide any module size information.
Nor will they supply voltage test details at the terminals so we could at least ascertain if the packs might be ok.
It's not that difficult to place a voltmeter on the terminals and take a pic

A gamble Hmm.

I have sent a further e-mail requesting a voltmeter be placed on a few packs and the pics posted.

[cwah]

Do they sell the module to individuals? So no need to buy 100 of them?

[Sutho]

Well.....I bit the bullet and bought 22 x 7s3p units.

I was about to order the individual cells and go through the arduous task of packaging them. This is much easier.

I have a pretty good idea where these come from too. The bulk of them would be the packs that include the potential "soft short" which could result in failure or capacity loss. But I have seen evidence that shows that some have been removed from Fisker packs.

I need 18 packs.....so I purchased 22. I reckon if a pack fails I will swap it out. If a cell group fails I will cut that group out of the pack and replace it with a group out of a spare pack. The busbar will need to be carefully re-welded.

So.....providing the packs don't fail in a dramatic or dangerous fashion, I reckon these are good value. I also think there's a gonna be heaps available......probably close to $55m worth.

[agniusm]

Looks like A123 is shaking off responsibility and pushing them without warranty through sorts of victpower, and i got dead cells of them. I wander just why, why not sell them to individuals without going through no warranty Chinese distributors? Is there something wrong with these modules/cells? There is no real life experience with them long term. Packs are nice, but tabs are welded to busbar with laser and replacing damaged/bad cell would be some job, and loosing whole module because of one or two cells would be costly. I think A123 going tits up and just salvaging what they can.

P.S. They cant give you even voltages on the module? WTF? I mean its not 5 dollar ice cream people are buying! Can in a bag.

Will be waiting for feedback from Sutho.

[Teh Stork]

Well holy shit that is cheap... Could easily build a motorcycle with 3 or 4 of these modules.

[o00scorpion00o]

There is also a guy in Ireland who uses the online name of "Jack Bauer"- and he has built an EV.

Coincidence? Possibly.

He didn't by any chance convert a green bmw ?

[drewjet]

I was a member of the failed SangesF group buy. I just sent a request for a price on 7 of these. WOW 2/3 the price and already made into a pack!

No group buy for me this time!

[spkpn]

sign me up for 3 of the 3p7s modules or alternatively for one of the 28s2p modules.

[Harold in CR]

Price quote I just received is, $426.60 for the 7S3P module shipped to Vero Beach, Fl. This, compared to $449.20 for 13 single cells shipped to the same address. Someone posted they will NOT do voltage readings on the modules before shipping ?? That concerns me, being they have a BMS inside the module ???

Drewjet, if you get a good shipping quote, would you be interested in adding one module for me ?? I could have my Son pick it up from you. Would pay you before you order, naturally.

[peterperkins]

Well.....I bit the bullet and bought 22 x 7s3p units.

Good effort. How much was shipping to where? Did you get a quantity discount?

Did you pay via paypal or transfer, any extra fees?

[cassschr1]

Does any body know how much tab would be left after removing cell from the 42s3p assembly?

[Karolis]

Hmm. Maybe these packs are from this replacement
http://www.a123systems.com/85bc41fe-036 ... detail.htm

[The Mighty Volt]

There is also a guy in Ireland who uses the online name of "Jack Bauer"- and he has built an EV.

Coincidence? Possibly.

He didn't by any chance convert a green bmw ?

No I think that was the Croatian factor, with Mirco {Cromotor} and those guys.


Jack Bauer converted a BMW but I think it was a 316 Coupe.

[frodus]

no weight or dimension info yet?

Here's the pricing I got:
Price :42.8$ for 1s1p
Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p
Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P
Price :1066.6$ for 28s3p


one 7s3p and a 28s3p would be great for my motorcycle. That'd be 1349.90 for a 35s3p 112V 60Ah 6.7kwh pack (and compatible with my charger, controller and BMS). That's ~$200/kwh, wow.

Just need dimensional information, I won't order them if I can't put to use the modules in my motorcycle.

[deVries]

Well.....I bit the bullet and bought 22 x 7s3p units.

Thank you! for taking "the risk" to buy this many in quantity. 22 units (462 cells) is enough to at least get some idea about DOA or obvious defective units. I suggest sending a spare unit to Doctorbass, if possible, because he will be very happy to evaluate a unit. He is an expert that can give ideas about how to salvage, harvest, & use the cells. (Of course, you might want to open a unit first to see how easy it is to do, but if you have problems Doctorbass is The Battman! )

I would urge no one buy the larger sized modules until Sutho has tested these 7s3p. Why?

1) Because we really don't know yet what the percentage of "bad cells" will be in X number of modules or cells/per module. These modules have 21 cells, so buying a larger module will dramatically increase your odds of getting bad cells.

2) Starting with the smallest size module will at least be easier disassemble to take apart & see what's inside vs larger units.

3) No one knows if the BMS can be hacked & used.

4) No one knows if the cells can be "harvested" & used in some other combination. But if we can harvest the cells, then I have some cheap ideas how to charge & balance these not using a BMS. (This involves more effort & less "safety" than just using a BMS. Doable for bicycle to, perhaps, motorcycle.)

Yes, the news report states FIVE A123 customers were affected by the defect & it will cost 55 million to undo the damage. Of course, a recall is much more expensive than the actual production run, but we can probably guess there is a huge surplus of these modules that will be available for several months to come, imo, IMO.

Good Luck Sutho AND Thank You! again for taking the 1st plunge for ES on these modules. I can't buy any of these modules until May, so I look forward to yours & others results until then.

[flathill]

Someone posted they will NOT do voltage readings on the modules before shipping ?? That concerns me, being they have a BMS inside the module ???

That is pretty ridiculous. How hard is it to stick a multimeter on there? Unless there is a contactor built into the pack so the terminals read open. I would try to find this out.

Also are all the packs water cooled versions? If so the pack might be too heavy/big for ebikes. Perfect for a high power motorbike

Bypassing the BMS shouldn't be too hard but if the BMS is always on the packs could be low after a long boat trip, storage, and the boat trip to your doorstep

How ridiculous we have to buy the packs from China that might now be bricked. Could not A123 just auction them off in the USA with no warranty. F'ing lawyers I'm guessing they were sold to "recyclers"

China ships us finished goods on full ships and we ship them scrap metal, cardboard, and A123 packs on half empty ships

Try to find out the exact weight and dimensions

[Harold in CR]

Here is exactly what I copied from my email.

We dont have detail documents specifications for these A123 modules

Coz these modules were produced by A123 original factory . no 1 processes them..

Now In mainland of china,we no need use the modules,so bargain price to handle

[deVries]

Someone posted they will NOT do voltage readings on the modules before shipping ?? That concerns me, being they have a BMS inside the module ???

That is pretty ridiculous. How hard is it to stick a multimeter on there? Unless there is a contactor built into the pack so the terminals read open. I would try to find this out.

There is such a huge surplus of these modules that the majority should be in good condition vs bricks, IMO. This is a RECENT defect, so it is unlikely these units will be bricks. No one can recycle such expensive bricks, and the cells Doctorbass got were ALL good & meet ALL factory specifications that are advertised. The same company is selling these modules, so it is *LIKELY* these are in good condition in the sense no BMS killed these cells, imo, *IMO*. (IMO )

I have a pretty good idea where these come from too. The bulk of them would be the packs that include the potential "soft short" which could result in failure or capacity loss. But I have seen evidence that shows that some have been removed from Fisker packs.

Can you share a little more info about removing the cells from Fisker packs? That would be interesting to know, as it certainly lends credibility that we can harvest the cells if need be. Thanks!

[circuit]

If anyone gets their hands on these, I would really like to see how they are assembled inside, i.e. how are the cells held in place, how cooled, BMS close-ups, etc.

[The Mighty Volt]

If anyone gets their hands on these, I would really like to see how they are assembled inside, i.e. how are the cells held in place, how cooled, BMS close-ups, etc.

Good idea. Then we can copy it.