Hi-Powered Cycles

[richirich1113]

Ypedal, i dont know if your joking or what.

HPC does not claim its continous power. I have since added another one of there batteries to make 21s. That would be their 3500w system and at full throttle take offs and pulling steep hills ive seen as high as 3800w.

They do not claim this as continous power so being able to hit 3500w i dont see as misleading. If the bike couldnt pull that many watts no matter what the circumstance, Then ya i would have to say BS, but it does pull that and more.

[neptronix]

That's the problem. They don't explain anything. That mileage range is apparently calculated on flat land at 18mph for one. They didn't mention that on the site until i said something a week ago .. even then, it's hidden in the FAQs now and not on the battery description, or bike description pages.

But still, that is totally unrealistic. Nobody is going to buy a multi-thousand watt bike and run it at 18mph in perfect conditions. At 100% throttle, you're going to get 1/2-1/5th of those rated figures, depending on the setup.

So that in itself is skeezy.

And your peak power will be drawn continuously if you are headed up a hill, fighting a headwind, or maybe even going through a non-paved surface at high speeds. By doing that you will exceed the power capability of the motor and fry it eventually.

2500w is fine enough but they will sell you a HS/HT motor that will do 3500-5500w motor with up to a top speed of 55mph. People have blown these motors doing just a bit above 40mph. To sell them at that power level is just the kind of hi-powered-lie as when they sold BMC motors at 3000-4000w power levels and had those break continuously.

And HPC has claimed that these motors are different or customized.... yeah, you got a slow wind and bigger phase wires.. that does not improve the power handling..!

Rich, you are lucky because you bought one of the low powered bikes that was actually rated at a sane power level. You probably won't have problems with your motor ever, unless you try to tackle a serious grade for multiple miles. And i guess you'll get the battery range promised if you run around 20mph but you still overpaid pretty massively versus building your own bike that could have been faster, with better range, and better build quality at a lower price.



But here i am, repeating myself. Why are we still arguing about this?

[neptronix]

They do not claim this as continous power so being able to hit 3500w i dont see as misleading. If the bike couldnt pull that many watts no matter what the circumstance, Then ya i would have to say BS, but it does pull that and more.

Where do they mention that that's not the continuous power and why do they not mention the continuous power, then?
All other production ebikes are rated on continuous power, NOT peak power.
Another case of HPC's deceptive marketing tactics.

Every eBike part ( motor, controller, battery ) i have ever purchased has had a continuous power rating on it. Peak power is never mentioned.

Otherwise my MAC would have been sold as a 4000w motor, my 20C lipos would have been sold as 50C, my 12FET would have been sold as a 80A controller.. Gosh, i'd have some pretty impressive equipment on my hands if only a professional liar had sold me them

[BlackArrow]

Otherwise my MAC would have been sold as a 4000w motor, my 20C lipos would have been sold as 50C, my 12FET would have been sold as a 80A controller.. Gosh, i'd have some pretty impressive equipment on my hands if only a professional liar had sold me them

Right on Neptronix, good one

Black Arrow

[hi-powercycles]

We actually do appreciate your guys' input. I see where some of you are coming from. We will make some changes accordingly. Thank you.
-Stock photos will be phased out for actual shots of the bikes
-Power levels will be more clear that they are NOT a continuous rating of the motor, it is just nominal battery voltage x current output of the controller (actual power output)
-Range will be indicated as a maximum range @ 18-20 MPH.
Contrary to what people may think, we do have our own motors, they are more efficient than any Crystalyte HS (less heat buildup at higher wattages), and in one full year of selling our gearless motors, there has NOT been one instance of a burnt motor. We know what we are doing and we keep things at a safe level, but at the same time push "accepted" boundaries. That's what HPC is all about.

[ohzee]

We actually do appreciate your guys' input. I see where some of you are coming from. We will make some changes accordingly. Thank you.
-Stock photos will be phased out for actual shots of the bikes
-Power levels will be more clear that they are NOT a continuous rating of the motor, it is just nominal battery voltage x current output of the controller (actual power output)
-Range will be indicated as a maximum range @ 18-20 MPH.
Contrary to what people may think, we do have our own motors, they are more efficient than any Crystalyte HS (less heat buildup at higher wattages), and in one full year of selling our gearless motors, there has NOT been one instance of a burnt motor. We know what we are doing and we keep things at a safe level, but at the same time push "accepted" boundaries. That's what HPC is all about.

Having followed this thread for a while and agreeing both sides have had valid points I am impressed with HPC sticking around and giving your point/view.

You seem to have some happy customers who like your products and I wish you much luck and hope you continue to stick around.

[neptronix]

HPC, that is a big improvement.

+ Real photos are definitely needed. I'm glad you'll be switching out the photoshopped ones.

+ Mention the peak power, then the total continuous power at 100% throttle at whatever given voltage you are supplying for a bike. Then users can know what they're going to draw during acceleration / during a hill, and what they're going to draw at the 80% unloaded speed that the bike will cruise at.

+ 20mph should be the absolute slowest speed you rate your bikes at. That's the federal limit. Mention the speed on all the product pages. They can figure out how much the motors guzzle at higher speeds to defeat aerodynamics on their own. If you are going over 20mph in most states anyway, you are doing something that is not legal anyway.

As for your motor handling.. even if you have a 40mm Crystalyte HS/HT motor, I'd say 4kW-5kW is stretching it still and you're going to have some blown motor complaints when someone buys one of those and thinks they can topple a multi-mile monster hill. Watch as people blow their shiny brand new Crystalyte 54xx's on that kind of power.

Prove me wrong at the pike's peak hill climb this year, and i'll shut my mouth and hand you props on delivering a great product.

[Philistine]

Watch as people blow their shiny brand new Crystalyte 54xx's on that kind of power.

Are you joking Neptronix? The 54s will be able to run 4-5 kw without skipping a beat. I used to run that on my X5303 stock, unvented, until my 20ah battery was drained, and it didn't even break a sweat.

[neptronix]

Watch as people blow their shiny brand new Crystalyte 54xx's on that kind of power.

Are you joking Neptronix? The 54s will be able to run 4-5 kw without skipping a beat. I used to run that on my X5303 stock, unvented, until my 20ah battery was drained, and it didn't even break a sweat.

On hills for long periods of time?
Were you doing it in a 26" wheel like hipower cycles sets their bikes up, or something smaller?

When i was speccing out motors for my hill climb, i noticed that when presented a 7% hill for an extended period of time, the 53xx motors were not much better than the crystalyte HT/HS.. 10 minutes 'till overheat on 3000w constant in a 26" wheel.

The story is different in a much smaller wheel.

Even zombiess of the greyborg fame advises running the hubzilla motor with 5-10mm wider magnets than the 54xx in a 26" wheel at beyond 4kW. He says a 20" wheel is critical.

So i maintain my statement, and i hope someone proves me wrong.

Even if hipower cycles is running the 40mm stator version of the HS/HT ( they'd have to be running nothing larger than that on these bikes, otherwise a 7-8 speed freewheel would just not fit ), they then have a motor that has less heat dissipation material than the 54xx..

This is all theoretical.

Bring all it all to pike's peak i say, if you want a real test of continuous power handling...

[nechaus]

HEY I want to buy a 90 watt solar panel from HPC for $1499.99


Maybe HPC would get more customers if they spent more time on a CAD program rather then using MS paint to edit and change the way their bikes look.

[neptronix]

[Philistine]

On hills for long periods of time?
Were you doing it in a 26" wheel like hipower cycles sets their bikes up, or something smaller?

In a 26inch wheel, with Maxxis Hookworms (so it was not only 26inch, but with very tall tyres), plus I weigh 95kg, and I refuse to pedal, and I ride WOT everywhere. But I concede not on steep hills by any means. Where I live is decidedly unhilly, with very few decent hills. But I don't think it is fair to test the honesty of HPC's claims by the standard "Can it do those claims on Pike's Peak". I don't even think it is fair to say that their claims have to withstand "multi-mile hills". For example there are no multi mile hills where I live. But I agree about the smaller H motors. I run my HS35 on 4kw constant, but after 15-20km it is getting smoking hot, and you can smell the varnish, and it is definately at its limits, even in the unhilly environment of my town. But the X5s are just a totally different kettle of fish, that is why people are happy to lug around the weight of a small house attached to the rear of their bike.

[richirich1113]

With all this BS in power claims- rated power to continous power. Dont car manufactuars do the same thing with their claims?
When you see a commercial for a new car and they claim the new (such and such) now has 260 horsepower, isnt that just an achieved maximum rating?]

Do you expect that your going to be able to just put the pedal to the floor and drive around at 260 horsepower all day, drive up mountains with the tach peged pushing the car at the full 260hp continously with out ever worrying that something is not going to overheat and blow?

Is it frudulent advertising then to say the car is 260hp if you cant drive it pulling the whole 260hp from start to stop on every drive? Does the owner manual say that because the car is 260hp that it is okay to drive it continuosly right at the rpm redline?

So whats the really fricken big deal on how they advertse their stuff. So they photoshop the pictures BFD. If you dont like their website dont look at it. Who are you that they should have to impress you? Arte you buying anything from them?

Does'nt it really come down to- Are their customers happy with what they got and how well they will handle their warranty service??? If there is any complaints, is'nt this is where it should be focused at!

And who cares if you can brag that you "can build it cheaper" Thats not the point. Were talking about having something pre-built for you. So what , you think they dont pay rent, utilities,have to buy in large quantities,have wages insurances, advertising and whatever misc. costs of doing business? Take a reality pill.

Putting them down without doing something better yourself does not make you look any smarter. jmho

[Ypedal]

the difference here is the car industry has established that guideline of posting up peak power..

ebike industry is and has not.. and i think should not.. HPC is not doing anyone but themselves favors here.

[BlackArrow]

Hey Richrich,

How much did you pay for your HPC ebike please ? And what kind of upgrades or repair have you done on it since them ? of course i mean something else the changing flates and chain.

Black Arrow

[richirich1113]

I do not know if i should advertise what i paid exactly. It was a good deal lower than what they advertise. Everyone has to work on their own negotiating skills themselves. Cash talks. Really, when you spend this kind of money you dont go into a new car dealership and pay sticker price. I figured out what i wanted and what i would pay for it and they accepted it. (disclaimer)Your results may vary..

The things i changed on the bike later were my presonal preference. i had them put on the tires i wanted 26x1.75 schwallbe marathons. i didnt like them so i changed to hookworms. I put on a different seat cuz i wanted a red and black one. i got a good deal off ebay for some avid elixer5 203mm hydro brakes, so i put them on. I originally ordered it with the rear battery rack and their lipo4 battery, i didnt like the weight of the lipo4 and rear rack so after a couple weeks of use i contacted them and they let me send it back and exchage it for their lipo and frame bag.

And i have to say their warranty service is great. After 1 month the bike stopped working. I thought it was the motor so i sent it back but it tested fine so i sent back the controller which ended up being a brken pin on the hall connector which was not their fault. It was a crystalyte 48v 40amp controller. They sent me back a brand new36- 72v 45amp controller and paid for all shipping. which turned out really cool later since i bought another battery from them a few weeks ago to go to 21s and did not have to get another controller. So it really worked out for the better.

I do not feel that they have done me wrong in anyway. If i really had a gripe about anything they did ,i would be against them as hard or harder as any of the posters that feel they need to bash them.

[bzhwindtalker]

I'm not exactly a noob, but despite their need to get some real riders on their promo videos on YT, I see nothing wrong with HPC. I would not build and warranty a bike for much less, would you Nep?
Their range and power ratings are over-rated, this is a fact. They quote peak power, wich is a good thing for sales. They are an alternative to stleath, even if the base bikes they use are probably way weaker than a fully built up stleath... But they are naking business and happy customers tho can't/ don't want to deal with the build themselves. What's wrong with that??

[richirich1113]

Exactly,

Bottom line:

Customer service, Customer satisfaction, Warranty

Show me the proof that they have failed with this....

[BlackArrow]

Rich,

At 5000 $ (around) for a dual suspension ebike that cost 1/3 of this price for a DIY ebike, with more range and capacity, it will be a shame if HPC has a bad customer service.

It's a bit strange to me that you can't remember the price you pay for your ebike but it's my personal opinion. If newbie is not able to build an ebike sure he can buy an HPC ebike. But I really hope that he realize that is paying too much for this ebike and it's like trough cash trough the windows.

We have good vendors, very knowledge peoples here and many posts that explain how to build and or how to fix an ebike in details. The HPC solution still didn't make sense to me for someone that has already join this forum period.

Good day!
Black Arrow

[richirich1113]

Blackarrow,
I did not say that i do not remember how much i paid. I know what i paid. What im saying is " im not going to do someones work for them"
If they have cash, its time to put their own negotiating skills to the test.

Regaurdless of what anything costs, its customer service and warranty service that is the bottom line and i have been more than satisfied with it.

Warranty is the biggest factor for me. There are to many compaints on here about china vendors or even group buys that the product is bad and the purchaser is just stuck with it after waiting possibly months for it.. That would fricken piss me off to no end.

And its been pointed out, that really , who else is going to be able to build bikes like theirs and warranty it for less than what they ask?

blackarrow, i understand that a member here who has the knowlege and want to build his own can of course do it cheaper, im not arguing that. If a person does not know how or just does not want to ,and wants to buy from a company that will provite excellent customer service and warranty claims then HPC is a good choice.

[neptronix]

With all this BS in power claims- rated power to continous power. Dont car manufactuars do the same thing with their claims?
When you see a commercial for a new car and they claim the new (such and such) now has 260 horsepower, isnt that just an achieved maximum rating?]

They do, but you have such a massive excess of power in any gas car that it's almost impossible to hit peak power continuously! you are provided a minimum of 2 times the power you need to cruise along even in the putziest of cars.. up to about 100 times the power you could ever possibly use in the most powerful car..

You also have a cooling system in your car that can deal with a massive amount of heat. You also have the engine designed to run at a top RPM that will ensure it lasts hundreds of thousands of miles. These production cars are quite detuned from the factory.

Cars have massive overhead. To the point where you can never expect to hit the limits unless you're racing and your minimum RPM is 5000+, lol.

I have basically climbed up the rockies ( a few mountains over from pike's peak ), up to 11,000ft down to sea level with 300-500lbs of my crap in the car multiple times, in a 1994 2.0L Nissan with 230,000 miles on it, and the temp gauge never rose above the middle point, lol.

All other production electric bikes have tons of overhead built in as well. My MAC motor is rated at 500w.. i think the HS/HT is rated at something like 1000w-1500w tops. And builders will typically underrate them to prevent the motor from blowing. Why? they don't want warranty returns. They also don't want a dissatisfied customer. They also want to set expectations properly before the sale to prevent other problems.

The problem with HPC is that you don't get told that extended use at 4000-5000w will kill your motor in a very short period of time. You get handed a controller and battery combo that can do the motor's peak power ( for minutes ) continuously. I as a hobbyist know that i am taking my chances and riding the line of reliability if i were to build something like that. As an end consumer, i have no effing idea.

Would you sell something like that with a straight face? at a massively high price? HPC did the same thing with the BMC motors... history repeats itself.

Sounds like HPC is interested in correcting some of their deceptive marketing, but they're not out of the woods yet.

[neptronix]

Warranty is the biggest factor for me. There are to many compaints on here about china vendors or even group buys that the product is bad and the purchaser is just stuck with it after waiting possibly months for it.. That would fricken piss me off to no end.

I'm sorry you gave up so soon. A lot of people do end up getting burned here, and it is usually A123 batteries, random crap from alibaba/eBay, random china companies, or crystalyte motors that they have a problem with.

But there are plenty of vendors that are tried and true, and many members here can rattle off a list, if need be. I for one have had excellent luck with cell_man. He's warrantied parts even though he's making a tiny profit compared to what the big companies charge. He knows more about his product than any other vendor and comes from an engineering background.

Others have had great experience with ebikes.ca, itselectric.ca, ebikes-sf, methods, lyen, and i'm sure i'm missing some here.. but these folks all know their product.. won't sell you something to fail.. and won't explode the price or lie about what the product can do. It's too bad you're out $500-$1000. You could have had the experiencing of building your own ( it's not hard at all ), and learning a little about how your machine works.

[neptronix]

By the way, my first experience with electric bikes was from a company that was reselling HPC products in San Luis Obispo, CA.

It was amazing how little informed the sales person was. I asked them if the $700 10AH lithium battery he was trying to sell me had a BMS, and he said it didn't need one. He proceeded to accidentally short the battery, then put it back into stock like nothing happened. I knew something was wrong just going off that.

I asked them what the BMC motors were selling for and the price was about $600.. and over $100 to put it in a wheel.

They didn't know what the top speed it could produce on the battery was, and they didn't have any bikes ready for test rides with that motor.

Knowing that the full kit would have cost me quite a bit of cash and that the batteries didn't even have a BMS to protect them, i figured eBikes were in an infancy stage and totally forgot about the concept of electric bikes for 2 years until i found endless sphere.

Then whaddya know, i found out about ping, a123, and hobbyking batteries that were half the price or less of what HPC was asking. Then at the time, cell_man was selling the MAC which was $185, or more like $230 in the wheel.. he also had a MXUS kit for $150 that was a white label version of the ampedbikes and ebikekit. I ordered the MXUS kit and put together my first electric bike for a grand total of $700.. later upgrading to the MAC for more power for about $370 shipped for the kit that included a 9FET controller.

After adding a falconEV bag and some more RC lipos, i had the bike i pictured earlier for under $1,300.. and plenty of knowledge about how this eBike stuff worked.

It is one of the many reasons why i tell people to build instead of buy, and answer multiple PMs a day from people asking for help.

[BlackArrow]

Blackarrow,

I did not say that I do not remember how much I paid. I know what I paid. What imp saying is " I'm not going to do someone's work for them".

Well I'm still suspecting you to work for them more then ever before, just my point of view.

Regardless of what anything costs, its customer service and warranty service that is the bottom line and i have been more than satisfied with it. Warranty is the biggest factor for me. .

Yes me too, I have deal with Cellman for a MAC gear motor and controller and will do business again with him, nice product behind is product, good warranty and prompt to help me and all of this at low cost.

There are too many complaints on here about china vendors or even group buys that the product is bad and the purchaser is just stuck with it after waiting possibly months for it... That would Fricke piss me off to no end. .

Again me too I will not participate to any groups buys until it was made by a guru here, my point of view

And its been pointed out, that really , who else is going to be able to build bikes like theirs and warranty it for less than what they ask? .

Probably an obscure vendor in China who built ebikes for HPC "under" their brand name, you don't believe that those ebikes are built in USA no ?

Blackarrow, I understand that a member here who has the knowledge and want to build his own can of course do it cheaper, I'm not arguing that. .

excellent, thank you.

If a person does not know how or just does not want to, and wants to buy from a company that will provide excellent customer service and warranty claims then HPC is a good choice.

The purpose of this forum is to help a newbie to build is own ebike even if he didn't have the knowledge to do it. You forget this very too often when you are so proud to defend HPC's. The HPC's warranty and good services cost too much money for a newbie and that's my point of view from my first post.

Good day!
Black Arrow

[richirich1113]

I get that you think there prices are high, you do have the option to not buy from them.

IT all sounds so easy, I do not know why you are not starting your own company building bikes and put them out of business, since you dont like them so much.

It should be as easy as 123 for the masteres, right?