Oatnet goes Vectrix!

[deVries]

The new 7.4kwh LiFePO4 pack is configured 45s5p, 50ah and 164v off the charger, roughly double the capacity of the 3.7kwh NiMh pack the bike came with. I travelled 46.5 aggressive miles on an '80% DOD test ride' that pulled 40ah/5700wh from the pack. Resting voltage only dropped to 144.7v, or 3.21v/cell, so there was enough juice left in the pack to accomodate an out-of-balance condition on future 80%DOD cycles. The range of 46.5 miles would be enough to do my work commute for (3) days (although I keep the battery topped up), or to do 30+ miles of errands after work. Frankly, my old body was exhausted by the 46.5 mile test, so I think I will run out of energy long before the moto does.

The Vectrix 2.0 pulls low amps (40-50) on launch, increasing with speed to a maximum of about 220 amps. I noted cruising up a steep hill at 50mph only pulled 60a. The Old pack was only 136v after charging, and after a few miles easily sagged under load to <108v to trigger the 'reduced performance' mode. This means the old pack was getting 24kw peaks into the motor, but the new one gets about 32kw into it, 33% more power. 70mph comes up very very fast now. The moto pulls MUCH harder from 30mph to the 72mph speed-limiting cutoff, and it is pulling so strong at cutoff that my helmet bounced off the windscreen the first time it kicked in.

I've been riding it for a few weeks now, range anxiety is a thing of the past, and I still haven't gotten used to all the new power, so I am thrilled. With the upgrade, my Vectrix has become exactly the bike I fantisized it was before I bought it.

Seems like just yesterday I was reading your posts about getting this bike & being licensed to ride a motorcycle for the 1st time...

How safe do you feel riding this as far as handling for any emergency "defensive driving" to avoid an accident with automobiles? Do you think it's safe enough with your skills & dealing with traffic to ride defensively to avoid auto accidents long-term?

Would your setup be able to ride 65mph on the highway for 20 miles then 60mph for 15 miles?

Could you recharge enough for 6-hours & repeat above? Then overnight charge to do it again.

I have a friend that is interested in doing this.

Well, you've been riding this setup for awhile now. How do you like it so far? Anything you would change at this point if you had to do it over again?

I read somewhere you have a pre-order in for the Brammo Empulse...

What is the sticker shock on these?

[oatnet]

Last month was my 2 year anniversary of owning the bike, so I made it that far without laying it down, and I hope I never do. I read somewhere that 70% of new riders lay it down in the first year, glad I didn't join that statistic, and I will work hard to avoid becoming part of any similar statistics.

Riding a moto, or an ebike, is never safe. I think fear is a good motivater to keep your attention on the road. I used to follow the MSF's advice to "ride like you are invisible", now I "ride like they are out to get me". I pretend my ride is a video game, where my 'opponent' could be hidden around any blind curve, waiting to pop out of any driveway, and has littered my path with gravel on every turn. This keeps me seeking out potential hazards and planning on how to react.

Given my initial tests, I am pretty sure it could handle the 35 mile duty cycle you describe, and recharge as well, but you would probably need a 240v charger to pump that much current in 6 hours.

The bike suits me well, I like having a trunk, but moto riders laugh at the scooter format. The sit-up seating format is comfortable, but it doesn't have the control of a bike you can grip with your knees.

I used headway cells because I had them sitting around, so they were free to me, but as you can see from the video below they were a real pain to engineer into the battery box, and they just barely fit. If I were to do it again, I would use the 20ah a123 prisimatics - one of those 43s3p modules would probably drop right in, but I'd probably make my own 45s6p 120ah pack.

The "100 mile" version of the Empulse is 14k.

[grindz145]

Holy awesome! I've been trying to snag one of those guys for a while. I missed a chance last year.

[velias]

What are the orange zip-ties around the end of each cell in the upper layers for?

[oatnet]

What are the orange zip-ties around the end of each cell in the upper layers for?

The orange cell holders only support one side of the cell, and the other side is supported only by the compression held by the set-screw joining the cells. I looked for zip ties that were the same thickness compressed, as the gap made by the cell holders. One of the colors they came in an orange color similar to the cell holders. I don't know how effecitve it will be in the long run, and compression may be more than enough to hold the cells in place anyhow, but time will tell.

[deVries]

The Vectrix 2.0 pulls low amps (40-50) on launch, increasing with speed to a maximum of about 220 amps. I noted cruising up a steep hill at 50mph only pulled 60a. The Old pack was only 136v after charging, and after a few miles easily sagged under load to <108v to trigger the 'reduced performance' mode. This means the old pack was getting 24kw peaks into the motor, but the new one gets about 32kw into it, 33% more power. 70mph comes up very very fast now. The moto pulls MUCH harder from 30mph to the 72mph speed-limiting cutoff, and it is pulling so strong at cutoff that my helmet bounced off the windscreen the first time it kicked in

Does this mean you can out accelerate most cars from a stop or when entering the highway without big drain on the battery to do it?

Do cars give you more "respect" and see you better vs riding an eBike?

How is the suspension & ride at higher speeds, especially, 65-70mph? Road bumps, wind drift or push, being passed by 18 wheelers or big cars/trucks with suck/push feel, twitchy in any way, or just some other negative aspect about going at those higher speeds on the highway that would make you nervous doing it day in and day out? In other words, it really does ride very good with handling & speed to be a true highway cruiser though range is limited. AND, you prefer the heavier weight & big bike feel at these higher speeds too?

Lastly, does it really feel very nimble for dodging city traffic & weaving city streets without being ungainly or less responsive than you would hope for? (Since it is a big & heavy bike.)

Thanks!

[oatnet]

Does this mean you can out accelerate most cars from a stop or when entering the highway without big drain on the battery to do it?

I do out-accellerate most cars, but that also seems to happen with the old honda civic sedan/beater I drive when its raining, so I think that is more a function of driving style than performance.

Do cars give you more "respect" and see you better vs riding an eBike?

Well, cars are not suprised to see you take a lane and I guess that is a form of respect, but many times you are invisible to them, so it is a mixed bag. Somewhere around here is my story of converting from MSF's (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) saying "Ride like you are invisible" to "Ride like they are out to get you". That saved my ass on last Friday.

How is the suspension & ride at higher speeds, especially, 65-70mph? Road bumps, wind drift or push, being passed by 18 wheelers or big cars/trucks with suck/push feel, twitchy in any way, or just some other negative aspect about going at those higher speeds on the highway that would make you nervous doing it day in and day out? In other words, it really does ride very good with handling & speed to be a true highway cruiser though range is limited. AND, you prefer the heavier weight & big bike feel at these higher speeds too?

There is a gladiatorial aspect to riding a moto, a tension of will overcoming fear to achieve grace, so I am always nervous. The Vectrix associated with that effort, however, is a comfortable, stable ride, appropriate to a low COG from the battery pack set low between the wheels. It is by no means a sport bike, but it leans over nicely. The seat and the upright seating position are very comfortable but I wish I could grip the bike with my knees and not my butt. I am not a fan of the bench-seating format, but the shape of seat does really hold your butt in place for moderate control.

The smaller wheels and Maxi-Scooter format don't get much respect from the motorcycle crowd, but it does 72mph and has a trunk I can store my helmet and bring groceries home in. It is also has a bunch of brand name kit on it, whatever.

I don't have cause to ride it on the highway.

Lastly, does it really feel very nimble for dodging city traffic & weaving city streets without being ungainly or less responsive than you would hope for? (Since it is a big & heavy bike.)

I think agility has a lot to do with the rider. This is capable of the duty you suggest, but it is not a sport bike. If this is your first moto, it will feel heavy and ungainly at first, and everytime you lean it will feel like it is going to fall over. Then you adapt, find the balance, and don't think about it anymore. I think the experience helped me adapt to a heavy front-mounted battery pack on ebikes and unlock the superior handling. For a beginner I'd highly recommend an MSF "BRC" (Basic rider course), they supply the motos, teach you how to ride them, and in California it replaces the driving test for getting your motorcycle license.

-JD

[deVries]

I think agility has a lot to do with the rider. This is capable of the duty you suggest, but it is not a sport bike. If this is your first moto, it will feel heavy and ungainly at first, and everytime you lean it will feel like it is going to fall over. Then you adapt, find the balance, and don't think about it anymore. I think the experience helped me adapt to a heavy front-mounted battery pack on ebikes and unlock the superior handling. For a beginner I'd highly recommend an MSF "BRC" (Basic rider course), they supply the motos, teach you how to ride them, and in California it replaces the driving test for getting your motorcycle license.

As you know, I've been looking into buying an EV motorcycle or scooter new/used or do an ICE conversion.

One thing I came across also is the ZEV. They seem to boast a lot of improvements over the Vectrix, etc. Have you researched or looked into this to know anything about this brand? Just curious if you have any opinions about it.

Thanks.

[oatnet]

One thing I came across also is the ZEV. They seem to boast a lot of improvements over the Vectrix, etc. Have you researched or looked into this to know anything about this brand? Just curious if you have any opinions about it.

They boast about a lot of things - like being the "worlds most powerful" by supplying 9200w continious, which is only 60a on my Vectrix, which does 200a. Then you look at that 7100 model, which only does 7100w, although you can order an 8500w model, 700w short of 9200w. I've always been turned off by their marketing, it seems disingenious to me.

To me, the Vectrix is an overpriced larger moto built to US manufacturing standards, and the ZEVs are a less expensive chinese design/parts purportedly "assembled in the US". In the used market, the Vectrix would come with aging NiMh, and the ZEV with low-grade lithium. I have to figure I am biased though, so I'd advise you to take a spin on both and form your own opinions. Look at the build of the battery boxes on both, look how the controllers were placed, look at the build of the swingarm, look at manufacturer of the brakes/tires/suspension,

-JD

[velias]

I must have missed something, but what BMS is it using for balancing etc. now? does it shut it down at LVC? Does the original motor controller still work with the different batteries/higher voltage or did you replace the motor controller too?

[oatnet]

I must have missed something, but what BMS is it using for balancing etc. now? does it shut it down at LVC? Does the original motor controller still work with the different batteries/higher voltage or did you replace the motor controller too?

I run a balance charge every few months or before a long ride. I watch the voltage and WH on the cycleanalyst to monitor LVC, but I rarely go far enough for that to be necessary. I could do my daily commute for three days in a row without recharge, but since I charge every night I have ample extra range for errands,

The original m/c works ok with full voltage of the new pack. I was worried about this, but ran it by antiscab on the Vectrix forum, and found out it would be ok. The increased voltage means I get a lot more watts into the motor, not to mention the battery.

-JD

[oatnet]

One day, I am going to work, and the bike feels like it is handling a little funny. I found that the front tire was way low, filled it up, and filled up the back tire too. The ride felt better for a few days, but then on the way to work I could feel the bike bouncing, like I had flat-spotted the tire. When I filled the rear tire, it never occurred to me that I had enough miles to wear out a tire, and I saw solid rubber like this...

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...but I missed the wear on the OTHER side of the tire. It was working its way through the third ply, and when I pressed on that spot with my finger, it sunk in, like I was pushing on a child's balloon. Anywhere else was hard as a rock. That tire was about to go; I rode home, slowly, gingerly, trying to not accellerate or brake hard, and made it home safe save for the knot in my stomach.

I was really surprised - I only got 3600 miles out of the tire, I have hookworms with tread after 10,000 miles - but my moto buddies told me that is pretty standard duty, rear in 4,000 miles, front in 8,000.

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It looked like folks on Visforvoltage had success with some michelin scooter tires - "gold standard" that had been discontinued, "city grip" that a few reported were noisy. I started looking at michelins, and in true JD fashion as I shopped I worked my way up to their top street tire, the "Power Pure SC". This is a dual-compound tire, with a high-wear compound in the center, and a soft super-grippy compound along the edges. I'm not fooling myself into thinking this Vectrix is a performance machine - but I figure the best grip is also the safest grip, and I want to get as much enjoyment as I can out of my rides, so I decided to splurge.

I had concerns about the tire swap until I got into it, realized I wouldn't be pulling the whole motor, because the rim bolts right off.

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The new rear tire changed the whole bike. The factory pirellis flare up at the edge off the tread, and the overall tread shape is much flatter. The Michelins have a much more rounded shape (probably standard for sporty moto tires) so it was easier to roll side-to-side, I felt I had a larger range of motion and control. But the HUGE difference was grip; I realized that all this time I had been gingerly guiding the Vectrix around corners, but with the new tire the rear was PLANTED.

I rode this way for a while, got to wondering what I was missing on the front end, and worrying I would press the grip on the back michelin and the front Pirelli wouldnt keep up. I decided to splurge and get a matching front, even though the pirelli had a lot of tread. I had a spare front wheel, so I took it to the dealer and got a power pure SC mounted on that too, and I'll swap wheels today/tomorrow.

I got a chance to do an interesting experiment... I put two fingers on the edges of the pirellis, drag them together towards the center of the tire, and my fingers slip right along, very little grip. Do the same experiment on the michelins, and my fingers don't move - the difference in grip is profound. Here are some pics of the fronts, side by side. The pirelli appears wider, but that is just because the tread flares out at the edges, instead of wrapping around the tire.

Here you can see the tread on the pirelli is flatter, and the michelin is much more rounded, like a hookworm tire.

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[ohzee]

man Oat you sure have some nice toys.

You sure got lucky with that tire glad your ok.

[BLUESTREAK]

HI OATNET: Haven't been posting for a while so I am in the process of changing my fuse and would like to add the cycle analyst and is it ok to use the shunt that GRIN has and which one? THANKS COOPER.

[grindz145]

Just had a 2008 Vectrix with 800 miles pop up on craigslist for $2500 If I had any spare cash at all I would pick it up...

In case anyone is interested:
http://rochester.craigslist.org/mcy/3249473832.html

[oatnet]

HI OATNET: Haven't been posting for a while so I am in the process of changing my fuse and would like to add the cycle analyst and is it ok to use the shunt that GRIN has and which one? THANKS COOPER.

I bought both shunt versions from grin, but I forget which one I used,either will work. Also, make sure you order the high voltage model - I accidentally ordered the high current, which drops out at 156.9v - so when I charge to 175v, it just reads 156.9v - thankfully it has endured the higher v. When I bought the large-screen single-button CA for my bus the high-current version was also the hi-voltage version, and I had of. Opted the difference.

Did your fuse blow, or are you changing it pre-emptively? Don't forget the I rush current limiter when you hook the batteries back up!

-JD

[BLUESTREAK]

HI OATNET: No I didn't blow a fuse I purposely let my battery drop it voltage down so it would be safe to work on, I am adding a charger tap for my regurlated 150 volt 0.3 amp power supply crarger that I bought to keep it charged without any heat and realized this is the best time to do all my add on's like the analyst and change the fuse. thanks for the help and BTW yor headway's look beautiful COOPER. PS I THINK YOU WERE THE FIRST TO COME UP WITH SUCH A SIMPLE I RUSH SETUP. THANKS AGAIN.

[oatnet]

After I put the Headway pack in my Vectrix, I discovered (2) of the cell junctions were getting voltage to the frame through their balance wires - I think the insulation got chafed/cut/pinched while I was sliding in the bottom half of the pack. I would have to dissassemble the pack to replace/re-route the wires (ah, the tradeoffs we make to shoehorn cells into a space ) so I just blew the fuse to those two cells, and now they don't have balance wires anymore.

I've been running this battery pack for a year and a half now, bulk charging daily and balancing it every 3 months. Of course, the cells on either side of the blown balance wire have been getting charged as a pair in series, instead of 2 individual cells, as the two single cell chargers loop around the blown balance wire. If the two different cells have different rates of self-discharge, it is possible for one cell to have a higher voltage than the other. In an extreme imbalance, one cell could be charged to a voltage that could be a fire risk.

Getting to these cells seemed impossible, so I have ignored the issue, and bulk-charged to a lower voltage. Recently I decided I have been running the pack long enough that I needed to become very concerned about those risks, and I stopped riding/charging the bike until I could address it.

I realized that if I took the body off and did some careful measuring, I could drill holes in the frame/battery box at the point in the pack with a bad balance wire, and insert a temporary wire for balancing. I did not relish the idea of drilling holes, and taking off the bodywork was an onerous task - one basically needs to remove the whole back end of the bodywork to remove the parts on the side. I waited until my next vacation, and budgeted several days to get through everything.

Armed with my Vectric Service manual, I decided to see if I could remove the bolts holding the parts on the side, and pull the parts out far enough to access the frame, without removing all the bodywork. That not only worked, but I was reminded that while the bottom of the battery box is solid metal, the upper part is a framework skinned in plastic. When I went to locate the junction between cells 13 and 14 with a bad balance wire, I found it right where the plastic skin meets the solid metal box. I was able to easily jam a solid-copper wire into the junction as a temporary balance wire.

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Then I went looking for the junction of cells 20-21, right at the back of the pack. I pulled back the corner of the plastic cover, and voila, I was right where I needed to be - so I attached the yellow alligator clip lead you see in the picture as a temporary balance wire.

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When I built this pack, I chose to sort the cells by resting voltage, instead of IR. I charged all the cells up at the same time so they were at the same voltage, let them sit a few days, then I sorted them in order of resting voltage. I figured that the cells with the highest self-discharge (represented by lowest voltage) would be the ones more likely to fail, so I put them at the top of the pack (towards cell 45) where I would have the easiest access to them. The cells with the best resting voltage went to the bottom of the pack (towards cell 1). As a side benefit, that means each supercell should have a similar rate of discharge to the supercell next to it.

I did a balance charge of the entire pack before I started, I wanted to see how high the voltage got on the stronger cell of the pair. I think sorting cells by self-discharge rate helped a lot, because when I went tested cells 13 and 14, they were within 0.012v of each other - already balanced, IMO. With cells 20-21, I found a much larger delta, but it took only about an hour of 2a charge (on a 60ah cell) to bring the weaker cell into balance. Considering that the pack has paralled (5) cells of mid-grade LiFe getting hammered daily for a year and a half, I think that is pretty good. When I was done, I just pushed the plastic back into place, with a layer of duct tape to seal it. The bodywork slid back into place easily, and now that I know where the cell junctions are, I won't need to remove it for my next balance charge.

Instead of days of work, the solution took mere hours. The blown balance wires have been a source of angst for me since I built the pack, so I am hugely relieved to have found a simple way to resolve the issue. I am also pleased to see how well my sort-by-resting voltage approach worked over a long period of time.

-JD

[BLUESTREAK]

HI OATNET: Every time you publish something new it's allways explained in such simple terms,thanks for that. COOPER.

[oatnet]

Thanks Cooper!

-JD