Crystalyte 5404 / 5403 UPGRADED! LAST CALL

[Andje]

I actually just got mine running, but it's not in a rim yet, and I don't have a video. I bet it will be working on the bike before the weekend though

[SkyCaptain]

lol, I actually measured the phase wire thickness/outside diameter of my (not running) 5304 compared to my new 5404's.
lol, the phase wire on my 5404's is actually nearly 1mm thinner! than my 5304 phase wires.
(of course I was just measuring the outside diameter, so maybe there is a variation in the plastic insulation)

I am not having a go at anyone who had anything to do with helping us all have these new exciting motors.
I am having a go a Clyte.
(and I may have missed somewhere along the line that the thicker phase wires were maybe not included in the end)

So, where the phase wires exit, how are you guys dealing with that? The way they sort of stick out a fair bit.
I have the guy next door to my work making up a few thick "c" washers I guess you would call them.
So the frame will touch press on the washer, and not squash the phase wires.
Only thing is if I am making that side around 12mm wider by adding the thick "c" washer to protect the phase wires from being squashed on the frame, then I am thinking it will no longer fit in my frame, or it will be way off center.

I am one of the lucky ones, as I have a 135mm and a 150mm motor here.

Hmm, the rim looks nice and strong.

[Philistine]

I got my 5404 going tonight on my Greyborg. I took it out for a quick spin. It pulls hard and has that nice smooth ride I find my 5303 used to have, and it definately pulls like a train. But unfortunately before I could get anything like a top speed or anything to report, I suddenly had a failure. Unfortunately I suspect one of two things, it is either a blown hall (please baby jesus don't be that), or else I may have slightly crushed and shorted the phase wires into each other enough to get an intermittend short, where they exit the axle. The way the wires exit the axle is ridiculous, and when I look down at it I can see that when I tightened my nuts, wires look quite a bit compressed inside the stupid little plastic thingy that covers them. But it is late tonight, and a mate of mine has borrowed my ebike tester so I won't know until tomorrow what my fate is. I am praying it is not a blown hall as I have still to succesfully replace the halls in my 5303 despite four failed attempts.

But here is a quick mobile phone photo of it in all its monstrous ludicrousness. The silver of it is giving a reflection of the flash, I think I will paint it black when I troubleshoot the problem. It weighs the same as a small house.

There is definately some QC issues on the build quality, for example two of my disc brake mount holes were not tapped properly, so that the screws don't go in. And as I said, my tip to punters yet to install theirs is to be really really careful about the plastic plug that the wires exit through, and making sure that you don't crush the wires inside it.

[methods]

This is the name of the game boys. Nobody panic

When we do a special order for a custom motor little things like this ALWAYS come up.
** ALWAYS **
The key is to be patient and let some clever fool find a good fix - wont be long I am sure. I have gone through this many time and it always seems like a nightmare at first and it always ends up to be a non-issue after a week or two.

As far as the wire gauge - dont worry about that either. Reality is that you can run 6awg but as soon as it gets inside the hub it is breaking out to tiny phase wires. The insulation is very high temperature teflon so just cut them short (near the axle) and use good high quality connectors. The 8" or so of smaller gauge wire wont change performance at all - maybe 5W out of 5KW so 1/10th of 1% power loss.

I am absolutely positive this situation will work out such that by the time most guys get their hubs laced everything will be tits.

-methods

[SkyCaptain]

Hi Methods.
Thanks for you calming words of wisdom.

Yes, I am trying to keep a possitive attitude.

I must admit I am really panicing!.
I have been trying to fix my 5304 for 3 or so months now. Everything checks out on it, runs until it comes to a stop, then will not go again until I re plug the batt in), yes, tried like 3 different batts and controllers all from working setups.

So was kind of excited to get these new 5404's thinking they would be a fully sorted out motor since you guys on here had an input into its specs. But obviously Clyte just does what they want once they have your money.


I am now thinking to sell at least one of mine if not both if I can get what what I paid for them.
Just the fact they came with thinner phase wire than my not running 5304, and the way the wires exit the hub just looks impossible for me to fit to any of my 5 bikes. (yes yes, I know, as another member pointed out to me) I obviously shouldnt be trying to do this ebike DIY) with my limited knowledge.

I have 3 Golden motor hubs here, all 7 years years old with lots of abuse and use and all working perfectly,
Yet I have 3 clyte motors here, one does'nt run, the other 2 are these new 5404's which just look like trouble to me.

(can you tell I am feeling a bit sad about all this lol)

But, I must admit that Methods is most likely correct. Probably in a week or so some of you more engineery guys will work out a solution for where the phase wires exit, and all will be dandy.

Best Regards
Andrew

[Philistine]

Just the fact they came with thinner phase wire than my not running 5304

My 5404 has what looks to me like 12 guage teflon phase wires. My 5304 and 5303 have way thinner phase wires, like maybe 14, but substantially thinner.

[Rustedhen]

Check your anderson connectors before installing as I had one of the phase wires to the motor fall out of the connector. Crimp was no good so I soldered it back in.

Threw away the plastic cap that went over the motor wires cause there was no way that was ever going to work. Just aligned the wires with the dropout slot and nothing appears to be getting crushed. Have yet to power it up though.

Public holiday today here in OZ so good chance to get some more stuff done on the bike

[SkyCaptain]

Yep.
I have the 3 motors here.
I measured with my cheap vernier gauge.
My phase wire on my standard 5304 is approx 3.9mm thick outside diamter, and on my 5404's it is only approx 3.1mm thick.

Hmm, not that it is a major issue. Like methods explained, it breaks into thinner wire soon as it gets inside the hub anyway.
In fact the way the wires exit the hub, if they put thicker wires on mine it would only compound the problem of it not having enough space.

Hey, sorry to hear you motor has already died on it's first ride "philistine"

That I guess is my concern, so far, the only news I know of about these motors, is 2 of them having stripped axles, and yours "philistines" that stopped working on the first ride.
Someone here did say they powered it up without a rim and it runs.
But I get the feeling as we all start to fit these motors, we will all either have stripped axles,shorted phase wires because of the stupidity of the people who made the motors, or blown halls.

Not such a big issue to fix all of the above if you have the skills.
For me, someone who doesnt have the skills, big trouble.

[Andje]

Yeah i got mine powered up without the rim, today I laced the rim up and got the whole thing mounted. I still have some work on my dropouts to do but I should have a vid of it up and running tomorrow .
As you say, line the wires up with the droupout slot and you have no worries. I'll say that the motor doesn't require dishing as far as I can tell; it's centered really well in my 150mm dropouts.

My spoke calcs;

5403 rim.PNG (14.46 KiB) Viewed 416 times

158's went in like a glove. I'm using a mavic 721 dh rim.

[Rustedhen]

Hey took the Stinky out for a run.

Far from complete got a lot of tidying up to do but the 5404 ran fine. Put 75v 50amps through it (stock controller settings) and about 4ah worth of riding round the back streets. Was just going to take it round the block but got carried away

Couldn't easily fit a rear disc brake so was wondering if I hook a button up for ebraking will regen (or at least motor braking) work at 75-80v on a crystalyte controller or will mods have to be made. Front brakes started squeeling with all the extra weight (time for new pads I think)

Work in progress

Clamping dropouts

[SkyCaptain]

Awesome news and good pictures to see.

I feel much better now having seen a few pictures and some more good news of you guys having the motor up and running nicely!.

I think I will just make like a thick "c" washer to go where the wires exit the hub. So the wires dont get squashed.

Really look forward to seeing a tire smoke out video, or some wheelie action.

[NeilP]

My spoke calcs;

5403 rim.PNG

158's went in like a glove. I'm using a mavic 721 dh rim.

Is that your own spreadsheet? or on line calc?

If spreadsheet, any chance you could post it up

I have seen and used many on line calcs, but that looks nice a neat

[Andje]

it's sheldon's calc actually, it has been linked here on es so here is a link to our internal page referencing it

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37119

Thanks to Full-throttle for the original find

[methods]

Maybe we can take advantage of this situation...

MethTek will be glad to buy a motor for our in-house testing if anyone in the US has developed cold feet. Our fearless test-rider Matthew needs a motor that can take 24S 100A punishment this summer.

Contact me via PM if anyone wants to make the mistake of selling us your motor

-methods

[Hyena]

I measured the phase wires with my cheap calipers and htey came out at 3.3mm
As methods says this is fine and the few inches of phase wires at this gauge exiting the motor won't be a limitation. You'll smoke the windings before the phase wires short. But yes by all means extend them a few inches outside. 8ga if you want overkill - 10ga would be sufficient. They were supposedly specced with 11ga and comparing with some 12ga teflon wire I have here it looks pretty damn close to that - so this is probably the least of things to worry about at this stage (wire cutting and halls shitting themselves on the first outing is a larger concern)

Our fearless test-rider Matthew needs a motor that can take 24S 100A punishment this summer.

Your brother down under can save Matthew the trouble

For those talking about lacing, voicecoils @ glowworm bicycles here in Sydney is currently trying to source spokes to suit lacing into other rims. He's gearing up to do 2 of these beasts but there's a question of which spokes to use. If you want to use tough downhill type rims they're all eyeletted which limits you to 13/14ga spokes which will no doubt struggle with the weight of this obese lump of spinning magnetism

Personally, I'm going to hunt for an 18-19" "light weight" alloy motorcycle rim to lace this bad boy into. I'm tempted to try oil cooling which seems to be gaining popularity but I don't think I'll make the maiden voyage on such a rare and expensive motor. Air cooling should suffice for now and I can always have new covers made up if I decide to go down the oil route. Coz that's how I roll

[Hobbit]

Personally, I'm going to hunt for an 18-19" "light weight" alloy motorcycle rim to lace this bad boy into.

So you're looking for, like what, one inch spokes!! MUHAHAHAHA. Can't wait to see some of these monsters rolling.

[Hyena]

haha nah nothing that mad - motorcycle rims are larger than bicycle rims inch for inch.
I think 17" motorbike tyres fit on a 20" pushy (bmx) rim so 19" is closer to 24" in mtb wheels, and has the benefit of a wide range of fat tyres. Obviously these huge tyres won't fit standard frames but luckily I know a gangster looking to make up custom frames

[neptronix]

actually it is 16" motorcycle/moped tires that fit 20" rims.



Such as the 2.75" x 16" pirelli m75.. fits perfect on the 20" magic pie. So do bmx tires.

[Hyena]

Ah thanks for clearing that up, I couldnt remember if it was 16 or 17.
How wide is the pie rim ? I have a cast scooter rim here (18" I think) and the rim is quite wide, though the casting weighs a tonne with thick rim and solid "spokes"

[Philistine]

Just applied the ebike tester to my 5404 and confirmed the problem is a blown hall. My worst nightmare. I would rather have dentistry performed through my anus than repair halls.

[Hyena]

Bummer mate,
Have you opened it up and tested the halls directly or just tested at the leads ? I guess you know how to test them properly and that you're getting some voltage back but not varying as expected (ie not just a broken wire) I haven't heard of any other hall failures just yet, not that it's any consolation but fingers crossed it's an isolated case.
These halls are supposedly the good ones too. I know I've given the wheel in my fighter (which presumably come from the same production run) a right pounding and yet yours which is brand new and ridden on the street fails almost out of the box - I don't know why

[Tincan]

I measured the phase wires with my cheap calipers and htey came out at 3.3mm
As methods says this is fine and the few inches of phase wires at this gauge exiting the motor won't be a limitation. You'll smoke the windings before the phase wires short. But yes by all means extend them a few inches outside. 8ga if you want overkill - 10ga would be sufficient. They were supposedly specced with 11ga and comparing with some 12ga teflon wire I have here it looks pretty damn close to that - so this is probably the least of things to worry about at this stage (wire cutting and halls shitting themselves on the first outing is a larger concern)

Our fearless test-rider Matthew needs a motor that can take 24S 100A punishment this summer.

Your brother down under can save Matthew the trouble

For those talking about lacing, voicecoils @ glowworm bicycles here in Sydney is currently trying to source spokes to suit lacing into other rims. He's gearing up to do 2 of these beasts but there's a question of which spokes to use. If you want to use tough downhill type rims they're all eyeletted which limits you to 13/14ga spokes which will no doubt struggle with the weight of this obese lump of spinning magnetism

Personally, I'm going to hunt for an 18-19" "light weight" alloy motorcycle rim to lace this bad boy into. I'm tempted to try oil cooling which seems to be gaining popularity but I don't think I'll make the maiden voyage on such a rare and expensive motor. Air cooling should suffice for now and I can always have new covers made up if I decide to go down the oil route. Coz that's how I roll

The wheel that i was going to send down to you is a Mavic which, as you mentioned is eyletted

The HT3525 that i currently have in it is using rather small spokes and to be honest, I'm not really comfortable with the small spokes

I guess now i face the million dollar question is... What rim will take the punishment, be 26 inch AND use the right spokes...

[deepfraught]

"isolated case" - he will need to be with straight jacket and padded cell. Sorry to hear Philistine, I just saw your Greyborg and couldn't believe I've spent so many hours on ES and not seen these builds (thought it was just a motor due to the group buy). If you have a good run at the casino drowning your sorrows, my 5404 is still with Hyena and willing to adopt it out for cost.

[Hyena]

I guess now i face the million dollar question is... What rim will take the punishment, be 26 inch AND use the right spokes...

I reckon an Alex DM24 is your best bet - they're pretty tough and don't use eyelettes so will take 12ga spokes - possibly even larger (though I havent tried and probably wouldn't recommend it)
I may have another solution for you yet though - see your PM

[Tincan]

I guess now i face the million dollar question is... What rim will take the punishment, be 26 inch AND use the right spokes...

I reckon an Alex DM24 is your best bet - they're pretty tough and don't use eyelettes so will take 12ga spokes - possibly even larger (though I havent tried and probably wouldn't recommend it)
I may have another solution for you yet though - see your PM