Crystalyte 5404 / 5403 UPGRADED! LAST CALL

[Andje]

Check my aline thread for a spinup video of my 5403 at 100v.

[neptronix]

Just about 1.75 inches.

Ah thanks for clearing that up, I couldnt remember if it was 16 or 17.
How wide is the pie rim ? I have a cast scooter rim here (18" I think) and the rim is quite wide, though the casting weighs a tonne with thick rim and solid "spokes"

[Philistine]

Bummer mate,
Have you opened it up and tested the halls directly or just tested at the leads ? I guess you know how to test them properly and that you're getting some voltage back but not varying as expected (ie not just a broken wire) I haven't heard of any other hall failures just yet, not that it's any consolation but fingers crossed it's an isolated case.
These halls are supposedly the good ones too. I know I've given the wheel in my fighter (which presumably come from the same production run) a right pounding and yet yours which is brand new and ridden on the street fails almost out of the box - I don't know why

After I posted that last post I had a good look at the wiring and it is damaged at the axle (from being compressed by they little plastic thingy), so I am hoping as you say that it is just a wire continuity problem not the hall itself, so I still have my fingers crossed in that regards. I won't start huffing poppers in anticipation of dentanaltry just yet...

[methods]

I won't start huffing poppers in anticipation of dentanaltry just yet...

Poppers or crackers?
I saw this thing they call a Popper at the adult book store the other day (settle down... I was there with my pregnant wife!) They are unfamiliar to me - perhaps I should buy a case of these magical devices and perform a scientific experiment.

Dude - I bet you $20 that it is just a nipped wire. Like getting the tip of your pecker caught in the zipper... hurts like hell but always an easy fix.

If you guys would start posting a few more close up pictures the smarty-lurks could help you more

-methods

[Philistine]

Poppers are muscle relaxants..... I was joking about the anal dentristy that I might have been favouring. Almost certain it is the wire though, as I can see wheret he insulation is stripped and the wire cut very slightly. I am hoping when I repair that wiring it will all be good.

What is the guage of teflon wire for the hall wires?

[Hobbit]

Ooh, that's gonna be a big relief, Phil, for you and the rest of the owners if it's just a pinched wire , eh, I'd hate to add halls to the list of fixes required...

[Hyena]

I saw this thing they call a Popper at the adult book store the other day (settle down... I was there with my pregnant wife!)

So you've got one of those frisky pregnant wives ? I always luck out, my was the opposite when pregnant both times

Phil, I'd try gently tugging (lol) at the wires exiting the motor and see if you can pull a bit more through. There's often a little bit of slack and if you can expose the broken/stripped part you can solder it and get some heatshrink over it

[Rustedhen]

Story of a noob.

When I first took the stinky out for a run I was a little dissapointed with the top speed on the CA only showing 35km/h

Figured first it musta been a speed switch problem so put a jumper across a couple of the pins on the yellow plug. Awesome now doing 40km/h

Maybe its the resistors I put on the magura throttle wires. Head down to the store and pick up some adjustable pots instead. Fine tuned to get exactly the same resistances and top speed

Hmm maybe its a CA setting. Checked out the advanced options (because the volts and amps seemed to be pretty much spot on) and found the pole count to be way off. Set them back to 12 poles and guess what. Looks like I've been going 60~70km/h the whole time

No wonder my brakes are fried

[SkyCaptain]

Hmmm.

Managed to get my installed on one bike.
To get the rim centered in the frame, I had to spread the rear drop out width to aprrox 155mm wide, and use spacers to fill in the gap. Also, it was way off to one side, because of the 7mm thick "C" washer I made and used where the wires exit the hub to protect them.

Anyway, felt good to get it into the bike.
How are you guys going with alloy frames? does it fit and line up?
How are you protecting the wires where it exits the hub so they dont get squashed?

Anyway, had my first ride on it just before,it was a night ride. Approx 5km on road.
Ran it on just a low power setup, 48v approx 40amp max.
It ran exactly like I was expecting.
Top speed was down a bit compared to when I was using the golden motor hub that I pulled out of the bike to put this 5404 in.
And the handling did feel a little strange, going from a light motor to a heavy one.

Anyway, it did pull slightly firmer than the golden motor 1000w and also i think slightly firmer than my now not running 5304, but was a few k's down in top speed on 48v compared to my other motors.

However, it did as I say, on a low amp and volt setting pull firmer than all my other motors.
So this is a good sign.
It did not get hot or even warm,(but was cold night)
So, I expect when I crank up the volts and amps it should pull much better and cope with it pretty well.

Now unfortunately, it looks like I have blown out the bearings or the axel is loose or somehting.
When you hold the tire and woble it, it kind of clunks, and moves heaps side to side. I assume that would be just the bearings?
But I did notice a little woble/clunk when I put the tire onto it, like the axle moved slightly in and out.

Has anybody body else in Melbourne got one of these motors who is confident and has the time to help me replace the bearings and look into what else it might be?

I tried replacing halls in my 5304 around 4 months ago, and I really messed it up as it is still not running and nobody knows why, so I dont even want to touch or open this motor.
I would be happy to pay for the help to change the bearings.

[Handyhappy1]

Sounds like serious qc problems. Bearing gone after 5km. Hope I do not have the same problem as I am just putting my wheel together. Should be up and running as soon as I install my temperature probe in my 5404 and lace it to my new rim.

[Philistine]

Now unfortunately, it looks like I have blown out the bearings or the axel is loose or somehting.
When you hold the tire and woble it, it kind of clunks, and moves heaps side to side. I assume that would be just the bearings?
But I did notice a little woble/clunk when I put the tire onto it, like the axle moved slightly in and out.

Has anybody body else in Melbourne got one of these motors who is confident and has the time to help me replace the bearings and look into what else it might be?

I tried replacing halls in my 5304 around 4 months ago, and I really messed it up as it is still not running and nobody knows why, so I dont even want to touch or open this motor.
I would be happy to pay for the help to change the bearings.

Changing bearings is really easy, just pop your covers off, then pull out the bearings (eg with a screw-driver, they just sit inside the covers), and replace. Really easy.

I hear you on the halls though. I have tried three or four times (unsuccessfully) to replace the halls on my 5303, and it isn't that I don't know what I am doing as I have successfully replaced halls on a 9C before. I just confirmed last night that it is my hall sensor blown on my 5404 as well, so now I have two Crystallite hubs needing hall repair.

Does anyone know what is the guage of teflon wire for the halls on these motors, and where in Aus is it best to get the wire? Powerwerx?

[SkyCaptain]

Yep went out and had another look and feel this morning of the 5404.
Yep, after only a short test ride approx 5kms, I have some severe woble/knock sideways movement of the hub.
I hope it is just bearings and not an axle issue.

Thanks Phil for the advice on changing the bearings.
On my 5304 I have had the cover off on the side I need it to be off to replace the halls.
But I have never had the cover off on the side where the wires exit.
On my 5304 the plastic/nylon thing looks like it is glued in, and even if I pull the wires down in line with the axle, it just looks like when I slide the cover off it is going to jam and ruin the wires as there is not enough space.

[SkyCaptain]

Yeah so funny.
Mine had a little "QC passed" sticker hanging on the axle.
Hmm who in the lords name checked these motors for quality, lol

I really look forward to the future where you guys find a good manufacturer who listens to you guys on how make these types of hub motors.

[megacycle]

Should be up and running as soon as I install my temperature probe in my 5404 and lace it to my new rim.

Have say this properly, where are you placing that probe, on outer of windings .
Want to temp sense too. You using a bead or a bbq sensor mod.

[Philistine]

THe plastic thing is not glued in, you can slide it out with a screw driver. Just get a nice thin screwdriver in between the plastic plug and the cover, and pry it up, it will just slide up (it isn't glued in, just in there with friction), I have already removed mine on my 5404. Do you have a three jaw puller? The way I remove the stator to access the halls, is to remove the cover on the wire side, then (with brake disc and freewheel removed), push the motor with a three jaw puller (it is actually using it in a pushing way, as the centre pin is pushing the hub by the axle out), and push it out the wire side (ie so the stator comes out the wire side). It is really, really easy with a three jaw puller. The hard part for me is that no matter how carefull I am with replacing the hall sensors, I never seem to get enough clearance, or mysteriously they just don't work when I have put the whole thing back together. As I said, I have done it successfully with a 9C. The bit I find so hard with a X5 is the way the wires come in under the windings they are so finicky.

In my opinion this isn't bad QC per se, this is just chinese hubmotors, I have had all these problems with any hubmotor I have ever owned. The only way you will ever get a hubmotor without these kinds of issues is to make it somewhere other than china, then you can just quadruple the price.

[Handyhappy1]

I use a bbq sensor and epoxy it to the motor just below the windings. I then run the wire out along with the phase wires. I have found that these hub motors can take the high current of my Kelly controller but you must monitor your temperature and keep it below 160c. High heat will smoke these motors in a heart beat.
I will be monitoring this forum to see what power level people are using on the 5404. I will program my keb 72101 to approx. 8kw to start and move the power level up from there. At 87v and up to 190a continuous(450a max) I have a lot of potential power.

[Philistine]

OK, a point to note for Skycaptain (given I said getting the bearings out is easy). Tonight I pulled my 5404 motor apart to replace the busted hall sensor. When I push the motor out, the bearing on the non wire side stayed stuck to the axle (on my 5303 it remained in the cover). I was worried that when I returned the stator into the hub, that I could have problems, as I presumed the bearing would be a tight fit into the cover, which can be a problem if it slams up when returning. So I removed the bearing from the axle, but I needed to use a gear puller to do it it was so stuck on. I thought I was being gentle, but I have now dented my bearings. They are nice bearings though, appear to be genuine SKS bearings.... But then when I went to put the bearing into the cover, it is so insanely tight fit, I think I will need to press it in with a piece of wood etc. Makes me realise I was damned either way, because if I had tried to return the stator with the magnet force, I think it would have got stuck as unless the bearing was perfectly lined up with the cover it would have jammed. Anyway, who knows.

To my question. Can anyone point me to a thread with a photo (or just confirm) how the wiring on the hall sensor should be? My understanding from when I was trying to do my 5303, was that if you were staring at the stator with the halls on top, the hall would have the "chiseled" face facing you (ie the flat part to the back, the shaped or chiseled face facing out), and the wiring would attach to the three legs from the top as (colour - eg yellow) then Black then Red from left to right. Is that correct? Obviously if someone can point me to a photo would be awesome. Obviously I tried to look when I removed the bad hall, but when removing it I hadn't fully heated out the epoxy, and it tore off leaving the three bare wires and I was unclear which was which (on the existing sensors there is too much epoxy to see). I just wanted to be sure before I went through the whole trauma of putting in the sensor.

I am a comical idiot at this hobby, if anyone could watch me in the garage they would think it was Homer Simpson trying to build a robot.

[megacycle]

No wonder your using a BBQ sensor Handy, gonna be smokin lovin it .
Good luck, gonna start my 5404 build hopefully next week, all thanks to the Hyena Master for the magneto donk.
Need bigger controllers a Kelly like yours or an Alltrax if we're to catch up with you .

[Philistine]

It gets better, I forgot to mention that when I had taken the motor apart, I discovered that inside the axle itself, one of the phase wires was stripped of insulation. It was only a small tear in the insulation, but this then got me remembering that when the motor failed it was cogging as if there was a shorted phase wire. I didn't even think of this as the ebike tester clearly showed the phases in the motor were fine, but clearly showed a hall missing, and this was confirmed even with a multimeter and even when I had taken the motor apart inside the motor. But then it suddenly dawned on me that I had probably also blown a fet in my controller, and I just confirmed with a good motor that I have. So I now also have a 24 Fet controller with a blown fet. I love this hobby. It's awesome. I really am Homer Simpson, I couldn't even build one of his spice racks. Just to be clear none of this is the motors fault, it is simply because it didn't occur to me that the plastic cover would be compressing so much when I tightened my nuts. I am feeling all of these emotions at once in this order

[itchynackers]

Kind of like this, except with the e-bike...

[Philistine]

Kind of like this, except with the e-bike...

Pretty much spot on, but with more blood and crying.

[Hyena]

Wow, I think I'll leave mine sitting in the corner of my workshop and just look at it instead, knowing that if I chose I could put it on the bike and put stupid power through it.

If it makes you feel any better I got another bill today from the customs/shipping mob for another $175. Thats OK, I'll sell that spare H40 motor I have here and hopefully make a few bucks on it. Oh wait, that's right, Kenny conveniently left it out of the box it was supposed to be in

Time to email Kenny with a new request

[Handyhappy1]

I understand as I have done almost exactly the same. Watch for stripped phase wires exiting the axle. It is an extremely tight fit with relatively light covering on the teflon wires. I would prefer to see silicon coated wires but hey what do I know. Kenny knows best!!

[methods]

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If there was only smile that depicts eating popcorn...


-methods

[megacycle]

Still good for weighing tarps down or paper weight just grind the axle off