Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[davec]

so what type of work are we looking at to rip this pack apart?
simply removing screws- or do you need a dremel to cut metal to get the tabs out - i do wonder...
i guess we'll find out when someone receives the pack- the price is right on these --and these seem legit- hopefully not from used sources but even so its a deal if their not worn out too much- i dont think anyone has that much time on your hands to assemble illegitimate packs...

[deVries]

Price is in USD but coming to Canada, Ontario. that is for 1 7S3P pack, so keep in mind that shipping goes down per "cell" more you purchase.

I'm *guessing* it is higher because of higher Customs & Import Duties the shipper has to pay to clear Customs in Canada.

Correction, the receiver pays the brokerage and any involved fees, he told me that.

Now I'm confused.

[SlyCayer]

Now I'm confused.

I am even more confused, look at their answer in my last email, it's so funny, bunch of idiots are scamming people with different prices and then... Well look at the answer, it made me laugh a little.

Why do Chinese peeps do things like that? Firstly here is the email I am emailing: "andy.wang@victpower.cn" So it's Andy Wang, and then the name tag to that email is "ziying yang", Andy and Ziying is 2 different names unless Ziying and Andy is the same for Chinese distributors, and then in the signature "Cherry", so who the hell am I emailing with? Cherry? Andy? or Ziying?

Email:

On 4/26/2012 9:26 PM, ziying yang wrote:
>
> Hello Cayer,
> OK, i will send u 100% packs, pls tell me your address and phone number, then we can ship to u.
> Rgs
> Cherry
>
> -------------------------- Original Mail --------------------------
>
> Sent Date: April 27, 2012 8:48 Friday
> From: Sylvain Cayer <sales@nabatteries.com>
> Reply To: (null)
> Recipients: ziying yang <andy.wang@victpower.cn>
> Subject: Re: ,A123 Prismatic module
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there a reason why I paid $50 more then some of my friends on the modules? Is there a reason why I paid 100$ more then if one my friends gets it from you guys and gets it shipped in the U.S?
>
> I am feeling a little disgusted by that.
> Thank you,
>
> Sylvain Cayer
>
> sales@nabatteries.com

Why is she/he telling me he will be sending me 100% packs when I am asking why I had to pay more? Avoiding the question that kills?

I am eager to get this module so I can test and look at it further, but if this wouldn't be for that, I would NEVER purchase from them as they are very unorganized and look like scammers with their prices.

[zEEz]

> OK, i will send u 100% packs, pls tell me your address and phone number, then we can ship to u.

this is very funny but is alerting me a bit in case I want to order from them.
Up to now I got from HK and China good things in reasonable way only thru ebay-paypal ...
But also I luckily met on the internet a very reliable guy in China to order electronic parts
with a dependable behaviour, except for the expensive shipping methods he uses to reach Europe

Cannot say more, I wait a bit and look to what you all are getting, hoping for a further bargain
Good luck!

[bigmoose]

Here is some teardown information starting to come out on the modules. These links start to show the electronics in the integral module BMS. It is a custom ASIC module LG Chem L9763., so no data sheet is going to be forthcoming...

http://www.driveforinnovation.com/volt-teardown-the-battery-pack?cid=NL_UBM+Electronics
http://www.driveforinnovation.com/volt-teardown-battery-pack-parts-list?cid=NL_UBM+Electronics
http://www.driveforinnovation.com/volt-teardown-battery-pack-slide-presentation?cid=NL_UBM+Electronics

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Bigmoose,

Chevy volt packs described in teardown do not include A123 mfg cells, since the Volt cells operate at 4 V, not 3.3. Am I missing something here?

Here is some fairly recent news about the on-again-off-again-GM-A123 courting, from:
http://www.mitechnews.com/articles.asp?id=13932&sec=104

"Friday, December 09, 2011

GM Changes Chevy Volt Batter Supplier - A123 Gets Nod Over LG Chem

DETROIT – The latest news on the Chevrolet Volt is that General Motors is going to change battery suppliers. GM had been buying lithium-metal-oxide batteries from LG Chem. Now it will switch to lithium-phosphate batteries from A123. The lithium-phosphate batteries are less likely to catch fire if damaged, but they hold about 10 percent less energy, so that could impact the Volt's pure-electric driving range."

[oatnet]

I don't really get that, how come a Canadian citizen has to pay $334.00 for a 7S3P module and a US citizen only pays $283.00 ... The price should be the same. ... I might email Xin Wang about that.

Is there a reason why I paid $50 more then some of my friends on the modules? Is there a reason why I paid 100$ more then if one my friends gets it from you guys and gets it shipped in the U.S?

Yes, the reason is because that is the deal you mis-negotiated. When I contacted Xin, I quoted the $283.30 price Doc posted on his thread, which was re-posted on page 2 of THIS thread, and that is what I got. I would guess that you asked "how much for a 7s3p" -- which is a guaranteed way to pay a Chinese vendor MORE, because you just told them you don't know what the going price is.

You could have used the pricing data I shared when you negotiate the price of your NEXT purchase. But gee thanks for raising a stink about the deal you already mis-negotiated, because Xin came back to me with a "shipping increase" of $100, which I will now have to pay on each of my 4-5 subsequent orders. I'll get penalized $600 for sharing pricing data with folks who abuse it. So Thanks for throwing me under the bus before my deal even shipped, and be assured I will NOT be making the mistake of sharing pricing info again.

it's so funny, bunch of idiots are scamming people with different prices and then...

No, what is funny here is idiots who expect vendors in China to behave like vendors in the USA. When you deal with a Chinese vendor, there is NO FIXED PRICE LIKE THE USA, IT IS A NEGOTIATION. That is how business is done in China, and I am sure they think it is hilarious we expect a fixed price. Further, if we were Chinese in China, we would probably pay USD 75 for a 7s3p, but we start with the Rich American price. The best negotating technique is to KNOW what the market value is, tell them what you want and how much you want to pay, and NOT extort them for warrantees and promises that nobody will be around to service anyhow.

so who the hell am I emailing with? Cherry? Andy? or Ziying?

Who knows, who cares, what does it matter? This is SOP for dealing with Chinese Vendors, it is all smoke and mirrors, the standard picture of a vendor's "Factory" is always some other building, and I suspect that the standard picture of a cute female is typically a front that a male salesman uses to disarm the customer.

I would NEVER purchase from them as they are very unorganized and look like scammers with their prices.

Interesting words from the guy who is still selling a123 prisimatics for $55. I thought $55 was crazy when everyone was buying them for $35, then $25, and now >$18. http://www.jccayer.com/category.php?catbrand=A123&promo=on&

=============================

BigMoose, thanks for the details on the BMS, that is immensely helpful.

-JD

[zEEz]

No, what is funny here is idiots who expect vendors in China to behave like vendors in the USA. When you deal with a Chinese vendor, there is NO FIXED PRICE LIKE THE USA, IT IS A NEGOTIATION. That is how business is done in China, and I am sure they think it is hilarious we expect a fixed price. Further, if we were Chinese in China, we would probably pay USD 75 for a 7s3p, but we start with the Rich American price. The best negotating technique is to KNOW what the market value is, tell them what you want and how much you want to pay, and NOT extort them for warrantees and promises that nobody will be around to service anyhow.

Big Thumb Up to oatnet and his post and sorry for how things turned up ...

Just as a reminder, from my experience about Chinese vendors and prices, since this is not pointed out in the last post
and could be useful to avoid further errors ...
Usually they like negotiation on the price, this is true, but there is a caveat: if you propose something too low
-and here it is anyone guess- they will put you in the -BADASS BUYER GROUP- and I can assure you that even if maybe
you will receive something at all from them, it will be for sure broken, damaged, underperforming and so on ...
BUT IT IS YOUR FAULT !!!! NEGOTIATION has a 'BON TON' LIMIT! that in this case is the street price of A123 rejects ...
This is just to avoid now someone going to propose for a 7s3p something like 120$ and than pretending to receive
a working battery instead of a lemon ....

have fun!

[oatnet]

Usually they like negotiation on the price, this is true, but there is a caveat: if you propose something too low -and here it is anyone guess- they will put you in the -BADASS BUYER GROUP- and I can assure you that even if maybe you will receive something at all from them, it will be for sure broken, damaged, underperforming and so on ...

Very good point. They already know what they want to make on a deal, so if you negotiate too low, there are a million ways to make up the loss, usually by delivering the worst of their product. OTOH, they will always try to charge whatever the market will bear, and will take advantage where they can, so if you don't negotiate them down, you will get labeled as a stupid rich american and get average product.

A quicker route to get the S.R.A. label is to hassle them on specs, demand a warrantee, or otherwise conduct business in a non-Chinese fashion. Frankly, I can't out-negotiate most Chinese vendors - so I always start out knowing the market, knowing what the price should be, then I ask for that price and am ready to walk away if I don't get it.

-JD

[zEEz]

A quicker route to get the S.R.A. label is to hassle them on specs, demand a warrantee, or otherwise conduct business in a non-Chinese fashion. Frankly, I can't out-negotiate most Chinese vendors - so I always start out knowing the market, knowing what the price should be, then I ask for that price and am ready to walk away if I don't get it.

I cannot agree more and it seems it is worth repeating this pearls of experience ....
GUARANTEE: come on, you are sitting millions Km from them .... shipping is more expensive than product ....
Your only chance is to behave fine with them in order to hope they are not intentionally going to screw you.
Evidently, if you harass them with bad words via email, what you expect to have back?
For the rest, it is evident you are dealing with a kind of bargain, so it is a 50-50 chance operation

have fun!

[deVries]

Price quote I just received is, $426.60 for the 7S3P module shipped to Vero Beach, Fl.

Shipping one module to Florida is $143 based on the $283 price/module. That should be the highest "going rate" for shipping to anywhere in the USA, since this is on the Eastern side of the USA. West coast & Central USA should be cheaper because of less distance to travel.

Soon modules will be received by several ES members. We should wait & see their opinions. Then the power of a "group buy" for USA ES members *should* IMO get us a better deal for shipping. Perhaps ship by sea too?

Since the battery supplier is apparently monitoring this thread, then it would be wise to be respectful to our supplier. Keep in mind that prices are negotiable within limits, so let's be helpful to each other to do the best negotiations we can as a group. Use the PM feature on ES to PM members if you have some concerns. This way we keep good polite posts towards everyone, saving face, until we really know what is going on.

This is a new business deal & relationship, so we need to give this some time to get to know each other properly. The trend has been that these prices keep going down over time, with the cells, so there is reason to be patient for this trend to continue downward, perhaps, with modules too.

[totinen]

so who the hell am I emailing with? Cherry? Andy? or Ziying?

Who knows, who cares, what does it matter? This is SOP for dealing with Chinese Vendors, it is all smoke and mirrors, the standard picture of a vendor's "Factory" is always some other building, and I suspect that the standard picture of a cute female is typically a front that a male salesman uses to disarm the customer.

Maybe Cherry is saleswoman, Andy her boss and Ziying inv supplier? By the way, they may offer possibility to talk by Skype,

[Ypedal]

Many places use open inbox for email, anyone can reply who has access to the account.

[cassschr1]

When I looked at there on line catalouge there were so many 20amp pouches that I was confused. Maybe there's different types, I thought. Upon clicking them I would get different sales person, so maybe they get commision on what they sell. Just a thought.
nother subject; WHY WOULD ANY OF THESE PACKS HAVE A BMS on the pack when the pack is probably a 100s pack. Wouldn't the charge module probably be the bms that monitors ALL the cells, just wondering.

[deVries]

Another reason why shipping rates may change is IF your order is altered with a different configuration of module sizes. This is what may have happened with Oatnet's original price quote he shared about shipping, because he could not get that module configuration for that original quote. 42s3p module was unavailable, so he had to get 28s3p and 3 x 7s3p to match his 49s3p, so that's four separate modules instead of just two modules.

This new module configuration of 4 units vs 2 was bound to increase the shipping price, IMO. imo.

[SlyCayer]

I would NEVER purchase from them as they are very unorganized and look like scammers with their prices.

Interesting words from the guy who is still selling a123 prisimatics for $55. I thought $55 was crazy when everyone was buying them for $35, then $25, and now >$18. http://www.jccayer.com/category.php?catbrand=A123&promo=on&

LoL, At least if you find that being a "scammer" and "unorganized" then you must not know the definition of "scammer" and "unorganized"

Google it, maybe you get a better idea of the words.

Yes, we do sell the 20Amp Prismatics for $55.72 CAD, but at least everyone gets the same price, and our price structure for higher quantities is the same for everyone.

Ohh, and where do you see me tell you a price for shipping and then I revise my price for shipping to a higher price? No where, you can add to cart, calculate total, and checkout right there, shipping price never goes up after we do the "quote".

[deVries]

Many places use open inbox for email, anyone can reply who has access to the account.

Good point Ypedal. That probably explains exactly what is going on...

Guys, let's keep our minds and posts focused on "the prize". Use the PM feature for off-topic issues.

[HumboldtRc]

Anyone else that ordered, get their tracking number yet?

I got my tracking # and it has cleared customs in San Francisco. The lady from DHL that I talked to, said I would get the shipment by Wednesday next week.

[deVries]

Anyone else that ordered, get their tracking number yet?

I got my tracking # and it has cleared customs in San Francisco. The lady from DHL that I talked to, said I would get the shipment by Wednesday next week.

Congratulations!

You look to be getting the honors of virgin territory.

We await the virtual experience that you seem destined to provide us with. An A123 module is just the beginning.

[Indubitably]

Well, once the test subje... er... uh... brave entrepreneurs, report back that these cells look good, I'm in for at least one pack. I can't really justify tearing open a functional pre-engineered pack with integrated bms just to get the cells, and there is no way one of these bad boys is going to fit on a 2 wheel bike, but 2 or 3 of them would be perfect for a small enclosed commuter vehicle, and if it turns out that the pack as a whole is not fixable, I have an excuse to cannibalize it.

[SlyCayer]

I got my tracking # and it has cleared customs in San Francisco. The lady from DHL that I talked to, said I would get the shipment by Wednesday next week.

Nice, I am eager to see what you can tell us about these modules.

I am wondering how this integrated BMS works tho, does it have a half throttle? or just a throttle signal cutoff? Any one knows yet?

[deVries]

For those interested in the "cell defect" mystery I found this post in another thread by BigMoose.

Interesting observations:

John's cells arrived today! All in superb shape IMHO. John did a great job packaging and shipping them. I can only imagine the time it took. I know how long it took me to just unwrap, measure and photograph, rewrap and store them.

All cells measured either 3.292 or 3.293 Volts on a well calibrated DVM. No tearing or crushing of the foil packets. One thing that I didn't expect was the foils on the long edges were shaped and curled into a "C" along the long edge. They were not flat like the cells I had seen photos of before. The white plastic packaging fit the cells once curled into the "C" shape, so it appears deliberate and helps in shipping I believe. The part of the cell that takes the most "hurt" is the area between the tabs where the shaped shipping liner contacts the foil.

Center stampings were either A0, A1 or A2

First line on all was APP72161227 followed by blank, P1, P2 or P3. This varying mark did not correlate with A0, A1 or A2 markings.

What appears to be serial numbers or date codes varied:
SH(A,B,C,or D)11(A,B,D, E,F )xxxxxxx followed by blank or P1 P2 or P3

All said on the last line
300386-USA

Two things I noticed on two cells. After unwrapping and feeling the cells you hand gets a feeling for what is the norm, sort of like feeling currency. Let me show you one cell that had a texture anomaly. I wonder if this is the "shift" or misalignment that A123 talks about? It is on the cell that I labeled "3" a P1 cell SHA11E0400339 There was a slight ridge down the middle of the cell. About 5/8 inch wide and raised on the front and back by say 0.012 inches. The "thing" under the foil seemed to have sharp edges. Pix below are the cell, my finger points to the ridge on the front and the back.

Cell3.jpg (49.03 KiB) Viewed 872 times

Cell3FrontFold.jpg (49.01 KiB) Viewed 872 times

Here I marked where it feels like there is an extra "tape" inside the foil package. It is both front and rear, and just about right down the middle.

Cell3FrontFold2.jpg (54.93 KiB) Viewed 872 times

Cell3BackFold.jpg (43.85 KiB) Viewed 872 times

EDIT: I have been thinking about this ridge. If I were to package this cell I would use my 0.010 in thick fishpaper and make it two layers thick. I would remove the second layer in the center, say a 1 inch wide piece to take the pressure off of that ridge. I could very easily see how if this cell was stacked with the others and compressed, all the pressure would be on that ridge. If I basically make a spacer and put the pressure on the sides of the cell and not on the ridge, I might be OK.

Then towards the bottom of the stack my cell "17" that caught my eye because it was the only one with no "P" number after the APP72161227 line. Then I looked closer and all the writing looked squished together and was blacker than all the other cells. The 17 other cells were very consistent in marking. Number 17 had the lines closer together and the line height was less for the printing that is on th body of the cell. I would say shrunk about 15% or so. However the line of printing that goes across the tabs looks identical on all cells.

Cell17Label.jpg (54.41 KiB) Viewed 872 times

Cell 18 for comparison. This was the norm.

Cell18Label.jpg (52.85 KiB) Viewed 872 times

I don't know really what to make of my observations. I would say 16 of the cells appear identical. One had the fold in the center, but it's markings were like the others. One cell looked and felt fine, but the markings were shrunk 15% and there was no P number on the first line.

Thanks BigMoose for your excellent analysis from above!

[The Mighty Volt]

Some very good advice in here, but I have one question: how do I know what the market price is to begin with?

Mavizen says the market price is X. Some unknown Chinese person on Alibaba says it is Y. Then somebody here says it is Z.

Thanks.

[deVries]

Some very good advice in here, but I have one question: how do I know what the market price is to begin with?

Mavizen says the market price is X. Some unknown Chinese person on Alibaba says it is Y. Then somebody here says it is Z.

Thanks.

So far, it seems Doctorbass' original pricing for the modules holds-up. (But, just simply ask what the price is, and you might find yourself in a negotiation with varying prices usually at higher expense. )

The only catch is to firm-up your shipping costs, because that does seem to fluctuate significantly *unless* buying just 1-3 modules of 7s3p. Larger sized modules or quantities seem to fluctuate upwards in shipping costs at the point of shipping, and no one knows exactly "why" this is happening more than once. This might all be able to be decoded once someone that has ordered can check the actual invoice cost of shipping with the carrier that was used such as DHL.

[davec]

HumboldtRc - looking forward to your review
curious to know if it's easy to rip the cells out of these things. and about the cell voltages..even 1c test would be awesome if you have the equipment for it..