My application to be part of the M.E.N.S club( 2kW Big MAC )

[neptronix]

Sup dudes.

To be honest, i'm getting tired of hub motors.
The freewheel choices are limited ( 3spd for the clyte 54xx, 1 spd for the hubzilla ), the efficiency is lacking, the water ingress problem has never been solved, and getting best performance due to the low RPM involves using a tiny wheel, which limits the choice of bicycle greatly. ( especially if you are taller like me )

I want something that performs like my magic pie on 125v. Something that gets up to 40mph like a rocket on a 26" wheel.
So thus i am ready to take my adventure into joining the m.e.n.s club, and i have an idea to use one of these:

Motenergy PMSM/BLDC 24-72V Brushless Motor ME4201

https://www.cloudelectric.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MO-ME4201&CartID=1

Confirmed info, per my phone conversation with one of motenergy's engineers:

+ 50 RPM/v, so 12S / 46v nominal would produce 2300rpm unloaded. 20S/76v would produce 3800rpm unloaded.
+ 22lbs
+ ~4.5kw continuous, ~9kw peak
+ Comes with temp sensor.
+ 300f / 150C temp limit before the magnets go. Advised to not push it beyond 100C for longevity.
+ 8 pole, brushless, axial flux goodness from the company formerly known as MARS ( name changed due to lawsuit threats )

For the controller, i want to start out with a modded infineon 24FET controller and take it from there.

So i got a couple questions..

1) Has anyone else who is still active on the forum done this?
2) Is a single stage reduction OK? IE 11T to 66T to tune 3800rpm unloaded down to a nice 633rpm unloaded at the wheel?
3) what size chain and sprockets could be used? i was reading a thread by liveforphysics who said he is using #35. I guess i am looking for confirmation that #35 is good stuff.
4) can a rear disc brake on a standard bike wheel handle 6kW being dumped into it? Do i need a special hub or spokes?


Thank you in advance..
- m.e.n.s club hopeful

[Thud]

Hey Nep,
Drewjet uses that motor on his daily driver (motorcycle). It is a heavy bugger. He will be your 1st source for real world experiance

Your hub will handle the stress, but you need to keep everything tight. & start a pre-ride inspection proccess, to check it for any funkyness you don't want to discover out on the road.

I am also a #35 advocate, but for that motor something in the 40 class would also be acceptable/justifyable. If freewheeling is requirment, you will need to design it into yor set up some where....I can't imagine pedaling any distance with that motor being driven along.

welcome to the MENS club.....



(Any of you frocker's want to start some BS, I have a standing challange to a 48volt race!)

[Tench]

Neptronix, you took the words out of my mouth, i have been researching these motors myself and allready designed a build around one I am glad you have confirmed 50kv as on the manufacturers website it mentions 50 and 70 on the same page!!
Cloudelectric was the cheapest place i could find it too.
I have not completely decided which controller yet but i do like the look of the Kelly KEB48600;
http://kellycontroller.com/keb4860024v- ... p-564.html
anyone used one of these?
I dont think they have a shunt + and - output so to also run a V3 CA for additional control, battery info, range and speed etc they might need to be added or an external shunt used.
This controller is capable of upto 60v so i was planning 14s which can be charged with the Hyperion which simplifies this build.
The same controller is available with regen (Keb48601) but i will go with a freewheel instead.

I would hate to build around another controller and then find it is not upto the job.

Here is a vid i found on here of this motor being run on this controller;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g8BRyLaQgg

Controller manual here, it has some nice features, economy mode power boost switch

http://kellycontroller.com/mot/download ... Manual.pdf

Motors moved forward, batteries moved forward and now the readily available inexspensive control systems have caught up enabling these higher power setups to be built and be very useable, so its got to be done!!

Simon.

[jkbrigman]

Whoa...you said 26" wheels....Can a 26" wheel handle what this motor can dish out, or do you need to go with a 20" solid wheel just to be able to handle the output? (i'm not arguing, just asking. Don't want no trouble 'round here mister, this is a peaceable establishment...)

Holy carp, this motor weighs 22 lbs. Batteries, controller, motor all-up 60 lbs? What frame and forks did you have in mind? This smells like a Greyborg build...with an 80 tooth front sprocket. Or one of those spectacular full-custom UK mid-motor frames. Look Ma! No Bottom Bracket!

So wait: no interest in the liquid cooled goldenmotor BLDC? (48V-120V/10Kw, 3000-6000rpm) It's Monstrous Powerful and Affordable!
Look under the "e-Motorcycle" tab. Don't miss the flash movie of the Electric Passenger Trike in action.

JKB

[neptronix]

Tench: Glad i am not alone in my insanity There is a 70rpm/v one as well, i think it is the 0907? We definitely want the slower wound motor, the faster one requires a 2 stage reduction.

I called cloudelectric and they are cool guys. I called FFR trikes and tom gives his endorsement for the motor. He says it has a very linear torque curve. But he was driving it with a sevcon millipak, so i bet another controller is gonna be a bit more untamed. I recall he said it could be ran at 50mph on a bike chasiss all day and not break a sweat.

Kelly controllers are known to be hit / miss. They also have a very poor current sharing configuration for the FETs. Some people run them successfully, but liveforphysics was talking mad smack about them. I tend to trust his opinion as he is a no BS guy.

I'm thinking a 36FET infineon with 4410's would do the job. I want to gear mine down for 40mph, maybe a bit more, so the amp draw would be rather low. Yeah, if you want to go crazier than that, then you need to move on past the infineons. If you still want to go with a kelly, i would under-rate it a bit and get one that can handle 72v if you wanna run 14S. Just a suggestion.

[neptronix]

jkbrig: Yup, i wanna run 26" wheels. Tommy at FFRtrike's first publicized build was an ordinary Trek 830 on 26" wheels, He drove the wheel right off the disc brake holes. His bike weighed 140lbs. lol

http://www.evalbum.com/1618
I think that bike is still running

22lbs is nothing man, look at all the people running 24lb 53xx Crystalytes for years. Watch how many people have lined up for a >30lb 54xx Given that this thing can run about 4.5kW continuous, it stacks up to the hubzilla at +/- 1lb of that motor. But $200 less.. and not a hub.. so no gear ing problems

I may rock the hardtail bikes i have, and prolly put a $$$ front fork on. The 20" magic pie running on 7kW with a giant pirelli tire in the rear ( see the build in my links ) has proven that a super major fat rear wheel and a spring seat can really soak up the nasty stuff.

As with all things i build, it has to be pedalable at FULL speed. That means 55-60T chainring in the front, 11t gear in the back. I will operate it at 20-30mph, but have that option for 40mph+ when i feel the need to humiliate some motorcycles or ride on a road with no bike lane.

I already talked to golden motor and they don't seem to understand the RPM their 5kW motor makes on various voltages. They also advise to not run it under 3000rpm or it will overheat ( ??? ) It sounds like they made a copy of the 70rpm/v mars/etek motor.

The motenergy/mars motor is cheaper and doesn't have to be shipped from China. It's closer, if not identical to the original design of the eTek. When i called motenergy, the first person i got on the line is someone in the engineering department. When i contacted golden motor, i got a guy who took 10 minutes in between texts on skype and didn't know the product.

Not too hard of a decision...

[Tench]

Nep, i too was planning a 40 mph top speed to get good torque from the off running a 17" moped rim on a large flange hub., this would give me a 23" O/D to the tyre and do-able with a direct drive single stage reduction.
I will look into the Sevcon controllers.

22 lbs is not that much, as you have said an X5 is heavier and also in the wheel where you dont want it on a full sus bike, even the much lighter HS is not far off this weight, with the big rc motors being a lot of hassle i thought this route would give me the power i want reliably.

Keep this thread alive to pool info for our builds, i know of someone else who is also planning to do a build with the same motor.

I like the idea of using an un-modded off the shelf controller so if you have any other suggestions or links post them here.

Simon.

[neptronix]

UH HUH.
UHHH HUH.

Look at what i found!!

http://cma201201.en.ec21.com/Lawn_Mower_Motor_Deck_Motor--1106023_3639555.html

A 2000w continuous MAC motor that runs at a similar RPM per volt as the eTek
Half the weight, half the power as the motenergy motor. BUT.. if this is as underrated as my 500W MAC motor that i run at peaks of 2500W and 1500W constant, i bet you there is some more power hiding in this, especially with air flowing over it. AND.. i bet you can mount a little fan on the shaft before the pulley.

This is in no way as cool as a boner-popping big fat 6hp continuous motor. But it will do 40mph continuously, since that speed only requires about 2000w - 2500w to achieve.
Which is exactly what i am looking for.

But unfortunately, it is 1:30am here. I cannot start making all sorts of phone calls. It's bedtime.
Tomorrow, i will strike.

Damn, i just derailed the hell out of this thread. Sorry guys.

[voicecoils]

Something else worth considering in a similar weight and price range is a brushed motor.

eg http://www.cloudelectric.com/product-p/mo-me0909.htm

Higher peak power, simpler controllers (or no controller at all!). Brushes to change occasionally but it sure beats changing a hall sensor epoxied into a stator tooth!

Besides 35# and 40# chain, 219# gocart chain and sprockets are pretty cheap and a 80-90t rear is a similar size to an 8" disc rotor (ie not huge).

[Tench]

Nep that motor, M12980, does look interesting, minimum order quantity 50 at usd $100 each

[voicecoils]

Nep that motor, M12980, does look interesting, minimum order quantity 50 at usd $100 each

Agreed. Spinning 4-5 times faster then a hubmotor, a 5kg motor can pack quite a punch.

They may be flexible on the order quantity, especially for an initial order.

[Tench]

Voice, the brushed motor you linked to above is just too long to fit across a bike frame, the ME4201 is just about on the limit length wise for what i have in mind.
This little Mac motor needs more invesitgation, it could be a Gem, just the right combination of size weight and power, and if it is being touted as suitable for a ride on mower then it would do for a bike.

We need to blag a sample motor!

Simon.

[jonescg]

Ahh brushed motors. You know I don't think I have ever cussed a brushed motor here on ES before. I hope for the record I haven't anyway. They're pretty darn good for what they do, and how they do it. Just don't ask them to do more than that.

I think you will find an Agni on an e-bike can be pretty darn effective at rolling tyres off rims and getting the front wheel up. But you'd better have a long wheelbase

That said your little brushless motor looks pretty good for the power it dishes out.

[Miles]

This little Mac motor needs more invesitgation, it could be a Gem, just the right combination of size weight and power............

They are both outrunners with a casing over the rotor, I think....

BMC version: http://www.thesuperkids.com/15wabmcbr24m.html

[Cheeseboy]

was just about to post that link to the BMC motor

Watching this thread with interest as I am building an electric motorcycle with this sort of Brushless setup.

Lyen's motorcycle controller might be an option, not sure what its safe current handling limit is.

If you do need to meet a minimum order quantity on that Mac motor, if shipping isn't too much of a killer to Australia I'd definitely be interested in a few if the price is anywhere near what Thud said

[neptronix]

OK, dudes.

The brushed motenergy 0909 puts out a little more horsepower, but i agree that it's width is the killer here. It also runs at 3500rpm at 36v. That's a problem if you want to run a single gear reduction. To extract max power out of it, you'll nee 48v, an d you would be turning around 4000rpm+. If you want to go >40mph on a bike, then that is fine. But 40mph is where i am personally drawing the line for a bicycle chassis, so it is less suitable, IMHO.

The one i linked, the ME4201, has the lowest RPM per volt of the motenergy line. 1800rpm at 36v, 2400rpm at 48v, 3000rpm at 60v, 3600rpm at 72v. You couldn't ask for a more ideal range of rpm for doing a 3:1 - 6:1 reduction.

The BMC motor at max power ( 48v ) would put out 4900 rpm, which is even worse than the motenergy.
I've put 2 calls in to superkids. They do not know much about the motor. They say it is 7lb. They can not give me a definite answer as to whether they will restock it or not.

[Tench]

Thats it then, the little mac is too fast for single stage without getting silly, i will stick to the original plan and go with the ME4201 running on 14s with a reduction of 5-1 using a 22"o/d 16" rear wheel, the 17" is going in the front. Now i just need to finalise the controller choice
Or should i go 12s for simplified wiring and use the space for some more AH, decissions!!

[neptronix]

Nep that motor, M12980, does look interesting, minimum order quantity 50 at usd $100 each

I did not see/hear that $100 figure. Holy crap. Add China shipping, customs, and it's probably $200, but that's still a decent price. I *knew* this motor was going to be cheap ( MAC motors just are, across the board ), but not THAT cheap.

I can probably show them my 2 MAC builds, sweet talk them, and see if i can get a motor sent over, with the idea that a larger group buy may happen. But pretty much everyone responding here on the other side of this planet as me. So i think it is best if i be the guinea pig, then you guys can head up your own group buy - unless you want to pay the inflated price of a motor shipped from China, to the USA, to Australia/Europe.

If i cannot get anywhere, then i may be able to twist a particular MAC dealer's arm ;].

I will get one of these, one way or another. Then figure out a way to get them to the rest of you, if it pans out as promised.

BTW, for reference..

40mph is:
515rpm in a 26 wheel"
561rpm in a 24 wheel"
670rpm in a 20 wheel"

I believe all figures quoted for these motors are unloaded speeds. Loaded speeds are usually around 80%.

At 80%:
4,000rpm is 3,200rpm
3,500rpm is 2,800rpm
3,000rpm is 2,400rpm
2,500rpm is 2,000rpm

I'm thinking 5:1 to 6:1 would be best for a gear reduction so that you don't end up having a monster sized sprocket on the wheel.

Maybe the 0909 big brushed motenergy motor could be used when you factor in the loaded speed and you want to go well over 40mph.

[neptronix]

Thats it then, the little mac is too fast for single stage without getting silly, i will stick to the original plan and go with the ME4201 running on 14s with a reduction of 5-1 using a 22"o/d 16" rear wheel, the 17" is going in the front. Now i just need to finalise the controller choice
Or should i go 12s for simplified wiring and use the space for some more AH, decissions!!

Well if you go with a 26" wheel on the MAC at 48V, unloaded you will get 2800rpm / 515rpm, you then need only a 5.4:1 reduction to get that lofty 40mph figure i'm thinking about.

On a 24" wheel, a 5:1 reduction is appropriate.

It wouldn't work so great with your 14S though.

Yeah, i agree that it is less than ideal.

on the motenergy motor, your 14S would equal 53v x 50 = 2,650rpm, loaded, that will produce a meager 2,120 RPM, which i believe in a 22" OD wheel will only need a 3.4:1 to produce 40mph, and it will be wickedly torquey, given enough amps.

Bring a spare pair of trousers.

[Miles]

MAC 12980

[bzhwindtalker]

I need one. I bet I could do silly things with one of those on a dh chassis!

[Tench]

It does look nice

Here is the link with the price;

http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/559935 ... motor.html

Start blagging Nep, we need to know how usefull these motors are!

Check out the last sentence;

"We are now seeking International Distributors for our Products. If you require good quality and high performance at a reasonable price I’m sure we can meet/exceed your requirements. If you want the cheapest and barely adequate products, we may not be the right choice for you".

You need a sample to evaluate the product

[Miles]

It would be good to get a proper specification....

[neptronix]

I don't know what blagging is, but i'm probably doing it already.

I sent an info request to Damon Du already.
I called MAC in the USA. But they handed me off someone's email address. I sent the guy an email.
I called ilia at ebikes-sf but i am getting an answering machine. I may have called too early, i am an hour or two ahead of him.

[Tench]

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/blag