Brammo Enertia +

[liveforphysics]

If you think your bike is not performing well, we'd be happy to have a service tech drop in at Zero HQ to take a look at your Enertia...

Very cool to stop by ES and respond Brain. Thank you.

Maybe our bike isn't running properly. Our dyno is properly calibrated and certified, and more importantly, we had the SAE barometric pressure/temp dyno correction disabled for it, so it reads and displays true output power rather than the SAE corrected numbers you get from a normal gas bike dyno, that can inflate numbers by quite a bit, and for some dyno's is quite a difficult settings process to disable.

I'm temped to think that either our bike has something issue making it weak, or the magazine dyno test folks did not know how to disable the automatic SAE power correction numbers.

It would be great to get an enertia-plus down here to test.

[flathill]

That was a quick reply from Brammo. I would like to see a second bike from a regular owner dynoed in addition to having Brammo tweak the one you got. Good point on the atmospheric correction. Needs to be turned off with no combustion. Thanks!

If they all are underpowered....
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/th ... nary-tale/

[zEEz]

If you burn your motor up (which not a single person has in the 7 months we have been beating the snot out of them, it has extremely good temp protection), then your bike gets its motor replaced for free at no expense to you, so you wouldn't have to worry about buying one from Mote-energy/MARS etc.

OK, so you mean that the motor of those electric bikes is covered for any problem under warranty?
This is cool, but at this point, and also in relation to tinkering, at this point I don't understand why
Zero on the European website is selling among the replacement parts also the 2010 version of the Mars
Motor for 700€ and even a Perm Motor for 1300€ that is advertised: "For drivers that want 10% more power
than the stock Mars unit" ... for me this is a SERIOUS suggestion-addiction to tinkering

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/ind ... 9nooltdk43

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/ind ... 9nooltdk43

...and actually I'm quite a supporter of companies that has this marketing attitude

have fun!

[BrammoBrian]

The Enertia is not intended to be a freeway commuter, the Empulse is the bike for that. The Enertia is best suited for tight urban areas or commuting via surface streets. I have a 10 mile commute through Ashland (small town) and it works great for this. Faster than by car and faster than if I took my S1000RR sportbike. The guys up at Icon in Portland had the same comments... around town, a small electric super-moto is the ideal urban weapon. That's why this is one of the most well ridden bikes in the Icon garages...



We'd be happy to get Zero an Enertia Plus (and an Empulse), but I think it's in questionable form to post reports on a competitor on a public forum like this. We've not done this and I truly believe Brammo needs Zero to be successful and vice versa in order to grow this emerging market. It is common among OEMs to exchange products and avoid the whole "secret buyer" campaign that is never successful in disguising the identity of the buyer. If you want a bike to test, just ask. I'd like to check out your new model S.

[zEEz]

The Enertia is not intended to be a freeway commuter, the Empulse is the bike for that. The Enertia is best suited for tight urban areas or commuting via surface streets.

Sorry if I boldly ask, but perhaps I make also the interest of other potential buyers ....

As I disclosed in the first post, I think you (Brammo and Zero) did great in getting on the market nice
e-motorbikes for a price that us -common mortal people- would only manage to buy the
motor, the controller and perhaps the battery pack ...

I'm telling this just in order to stress the fact that, if only 2 years ago it was looking
price-wise acceptable to buy a motor, a controller and some battery to convert your preferred gas
bike ... already now this is not the case anymore .... at least for me...
(I'm speaking from my experience, since I bought long ago the motor (ME0907), than the controller
and now that I was looking for a suitable battery pack to convert my Aprilia 125 gas enduro
I see no more convenience in doing that ... perhaps I should sell the components ... )

SO, MY QUESTIONS are:
-Will ever happen that the short and quite strange seat of either the Enertia and the Engage
will be prolonged to cover normally the rear tire and give place to a driver + passenger?

-An Enertia PlusPlus with water cooled motor, and so the capability to be used without
worry in the Southern Europe were usually motorbike are ridden in quite warm weather
and having to deal with a controller in continuous temperature protection mode would be a pain ...

thank and have e-fun!

[liveforphysics]

The Enertia is not intended to be a freeway commuter, the Empulse is the bike for that. The Enertia is best suited for tight urban areas or commuting via surface streets. I have a 10 mile commute through Ashland (small town) and it works great for this. Faster than by car and faster than if I took my S1000RR sportbike. The guys up at Icon in Portland had the same comments... around town, a small electric super-moto is the ideal urban weapon. That's why this is one of the most well ridden bikes in the Icon garages...



We'd be happy to get Zero an Enertia Plus (and an Empulse), but I think it's in questionable form to post reports on a competitor on a public forum like this. We've not done this and I truly believe Brammo needs Zero to be successful and vice versa in order to grow this emerging market. It is common among OEMs to exchange products and avoid the whole "secret buyer" campaign that is never successful in disguising the identity of the buyer. If you want a bike to test, just ask. I'd like to check out your new model S.

Sounds like a they are loving it Brian. Motorcycles are a blast, and I totally agree, different bikes for different applications. My GSXR is not the best bike for tight city riding, a more nimble machine makes it much more of a pleasure than a struggle.

I put this video up as an answer to BrammoFan who didn't seem to know how much power it made, if it was 7.5kw or 15kw, so it seemed like it would be helpful to just measure one since it was sitting in the room next to me. You will notice the video was never even made searchable, you can only find it from this link in this thread, because it was just for answering BrammoFan's question. But, you've cast some doubt that it may have something wrong that would make it down on power, so I deleted the video, and hopefully we can confirm this machine is healthy, or you can help us to get her back in good health if it's not.

You should definitely try out a 2012 S, or my personal favorite, the DS (as a heavier taller guy, I like the DS's longer suspension feel and a little taller seat). They are a hell of a lot of fun, and I think you will be amazed with the pleasure of the riding experiences they can provide. Lately I've been taking the DS through some really truly gnarly off-road stuff, and I'm always blown away by how well it performs. As you know, the advantages of not being able to stall off-road are huge, and it's a blast to be silently torquing past stuck riders kicking there bikes.

The electric riding experience is so much fun, my poor KTM's are mostly left sitting collecting dust an rust. I might sell them both. I'm pretty hooked on the electric experience. The gas bike companies don't seem to realize they are doing it wrong, it's inevitable that electrics are going to make them obsolete, and the future is all ready available to buy and ride today, and fall in love with the awesome electric riding experiences.

[dkw12002]

We seem to be just one or two advancements away from wide-spread e-motorcycle and electric car usage. Right now, you likely need backup of a gas car or gas motorcycle. If we could get 1) a very rapid-charging capability like 5 min., 2)then make that available at thousands of service stations, then e-vehicles probably would take over quickly. Something like an oil embargo and $8 a gal. gas would push the technology along too.

[zEEz]

The peak power the bike outputs is 11.3hp, or 8.42kw. ***Note- BrammoBrian has suggested that this may not be a healthy bike, so while these numbers represent exactly what this one is making, Brian thinks something may be wrong with the bike, though it shows no faults and seems to operate like a healthy machine.

I was wondering in those last days about this point ...
I recalled from my experience the case of an Honda 125 4stroke enduro gas bike of the 90ies...
It was having a weight of 120Kg. an engine with a top power of 11hp , around 105Kmph top speed
and a very convenient fuel consumption of only 3 liters each 100Km.

If your Enertia is reaching a top speed of 110Kmph, as advertised ... its acceleration is good enough...
would you prefer it needs 12 or 8 kW in order to do all this?

From my perspective, it is clear I prefer the second choice, since this means I have 50% more range ...

I understand all marketing hypes and related BS ... but for any serious user this should be all that matters.

have fun!

[Hillhater]

If your Enertia is reaching a top speed of 110Kmph, as advertised ... its acceleration is good enough...
would you prefer it needs 12 or 8 kW in order to do all this?

From my perspective, it is clear I prefer the second choice, since this means I have 50% more range ... !

.. A higher power motor only reduces the range if you USE its full potential.
You could "self limit" the power if you are desperate for a longer range. ( assuming the higher powered motor is not dramatically less efficient )

[zEEz]

.. A higher power motor only reduces the range if you USE its full potential.

Perhaps I wrote a not very clear sentence: what I mean is 'would you prefer a motorbike
that needs 8 or 13kW to reach a top speed of 110kmph?'
Meaning just the effective required power to achieve that top speed, not
that the motorbike has a motor limited to 8 or 13kW ...

Essentially, I was prizing the mechanical efficiency of the Enertia tested by lfp,
if he can confirm that it was achieving a top speed of 110kmph with just the
8.5kW measured on the test bench .... because at this point anything beyond
that would improve speed and acceleration ...

have fun!

[dkw12002]

Since I own a Zero S, a Ninja 250, a Vespa 300, and 3 e-bikes, I decided to time myself going through my town on my Amped bike which is my fastest e-bike vs. the other 2. Turns out the e-bike was fastest getting to the other side of town, but slower coming back because of a hill that I have to walk the e-bike up. How can the e-bike be faster? Cause I don't stop for stop signs near my home if there is no traffic, and I cut across 2 big parking lots in town thus avoiding 2 major traffic lights and shortening the route. Taking major roads is the longest and slowest route. The fastest route is through alleys, parking lots, gas stations, etc. to avoid traffic lights. Strictly speaking that is not legal, but when was the last time you saw the police stop a bicycle? People ride bicycles on the sidewalk, do u-turns, share lanes, etc. etc. If you were to get stopped by the cops, since no license is required to ride a bicycle, there would be no points off your driver's license either, although you could have to pay a fine...theoretically. I'm going to vote for e-bikes as being the most practical city transportation and as fast in my case for this one trip I take almost daily. You can go faster in a car or motorcycle, but your route may be longer and you may be stopped at traffic lights a good portion of the time.

[emotofreak]

Here is a dyno plot from an independent 3rd party. I too, suspect that pretty much no one knows to turn off "SAE Power Correction" when testing electric bikes. Which would indicate the the previously quoted 11.3HP may not be far off.

http://plugbike.com/2010/08/10/who-won- ... -shootout/



Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any solid dyno data on Brammo Enertia's since the above testing, that I could find anyways...

[zEEz]

Here is a dyno plot from an independent 3rd party. I too, suspect that pretty much no one knows to turn off "SAE Power Correction" when testing electric bikes. Which would indicate the the previously quoted 11.3HP may not be far off.

[BrammoBrian]

Luke,

Good point about the SAE Power Correction. Along with general dyno calibration issues and variance brand to brand, this certainly makes comparing results a bit tricky. I appreciate that you were trying to answer a question on the forum as I think it's great that you've made your presence known here and on other forums as a competent technical resource.

I'll take you up on your offer to try out the DS, so let's work out how to do that offline. I'm not big into dirt riding as I usually end up on my head, but some of our other riders are very experienced off-road riders. If you're interested in the E+ or the Empulse (before October...), we can arrange a test through the R&D group here and keep the marketing guys out of it (hopefully). You can get my email address from PaulD, world champion e-bike racer and chief designer of Brammo Power battery modules:

[zEEz]

.... and chief designer of Brammo Power battery modules:

It is quite a nice design for a modular battery setup ... is this made of LiPO pouches and
will mount in the Enertia Plus? ... the Empulse looks like to use a different kind of module ...
Or it is just constant evolution of all the components that will converge in all the future ebikes?

I hope the 'seek for the truth' in the actual motor power is not upsetting you or other Brammo guys...
From my point of view it is a mere curiosity, just connected to the fact it helps me to figure
out what I can expect from my builds in the performance department.
I was doing those comparison since I was building electric planes, in order to find what could be
the probable top speed in a new model with given motor and batteries ...

Unfortunately for the moment the Drive Calculators that are popular in the RC world are still not
a ready developed or reliable tool for the still young ebike and emoto world.
But I'm confident that such a tool will come in time for us to evaluate and tweak our designs too.

It is evident that considering costs, performance and ready compliance to road regulations I will end
up to be a probable owner of one of your bikes ... so this is another point in being curious of what
I buy in comparison to what I could rig up myself ...

I post another photo here, just to spice up the interest ...

[BrammoBrian]

All,

Here's a video of our factory dyno test of the Enertia Plus (not with medium road load and no SAE correction for air density (i.e. real hp):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xKqb36JGmI

[zEEz]

All,

Here's a video of our factory dyno test of the Enertia Plus (not with medium road load and no SAE correction for air density (i.e. real hp):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xKqb36JGmI

I see you measured 64mph (100kmph) with a peak power of 24.5 hp ...
But I cannot forget my experience with bikes and I recall I had an enduro
motorbike that had a comparable aerodynamic shape with your Enertia -and perhaps worst
drive and bearing efficiency- ... this bike was consistently doing 125kmph with the driver
in upright position and 5 kmph more with driver lying down .... all this with 23 hp at the motor axe ....
so I cannot understand why you achieve only 64mph... Honestly this fact puzzle me a lot ...
Is perhaps here the fixed gearing the limiting factor?

have fun!

[zEEz]

I see you measured 64mph (100kmph) with a peak power of 24.5 hp ...
But I cannot forget my experience with bikes and I recall I had an enduro
motorbike that had a comparable aerodynamic shape with your Enertia -and perhaps worst
drive and bearing efficiency- ... this bike was consistently doing 125kmph with the driver
in upright position and 5 kmph more with driver lying down .... all this with 23 hp at the motor axe ....
so I cannot understand why you achieve only 64mph... Honestly this fact puzzle me a lot ...
Is perhaps here the fixed gearing the limiting factor?

have fun!

If anybody care, I found some answer to the question I posted some time ago ...
by going around on the BrammoForum....

To be short: The Enertia + has many Hp, but a limited top speed because of a soft limit in
the controller and the final gearing ratio that is perhaps too short ...

People at Brammo are currently tweaking the final prototype and possibly we will see
around 67-70mph in the final production bike.

There is a hope that the available power could allow, together with a longer final gearing, for
a top speed between 70 and 80mph ...

have fun!

[deVries]

I see you measured 64mph (100kmph) with a peak power of 24.5 hp ...
But I cannot forget my experience with bikes and I recall I had an enduro
motorbike that had a comparable aerodynamic shape with your Enertia -and perhaps worst
drive and bearing efficiency- ... this bike was consistently doing 125kmph with the driver
in upright position and 5 kmph more with driver lying down .... all this with 23 hp at the motor axe ....
so I cannot understand why you achieve only 64mph... Honestly this fact puzzle me a lot ...
Is perhaps here the fixed gearing the limiting factor?

have fun!

If anybody care, I found some answer to the question I posted some time ago ...
by going around on the BrammoForum....

To be short: The Enertia + has many Hp, but a limited top speed because of a soft limit in
the controller and the final gearing ratio that is perhaps too short ...

People at Brammo are currently tweaking the final prototype and possibly we will see
around 67-70mph in the final production bike.

There is a hope that the available power could allow, together with a longer final gearing, for
a top speed between 70 and 80mph ...

have fun!

I wonder if the Enertia+ "upgraded" & revised the specs to reflect any of the above hopeful improvements?

Also, which Zero bike would be the best model to compare to the Enertia+ ?

Thanks! Oh, and is pricing released for both these models to make $ comparisons at this time?

Update: I see the Enertia + is priced just under $11k. Frack! Too much for my budget!

[zEEz]

Update: I see the Enertia + is priced just under $11k. Frack! Too much for my budget!

S*it ... they screw up too much the price for me