My series parralel changer

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.

My series parralel changer

Postby Tench » Mon May 07, 2012 9:47 am

Several people have asked about how i did this, its no secret i just have not got around to doing an explanation but as today is a national holiday in the UK and it is raining i have found the time.
The system is made of 6 6s zippy 8ah packs, these are permanently parralelled at cell level into 3 pairs of 2 packs, that is the main power leads and the balance port leads are permanently connected.
The change over device has 2 plugs either of which can be plugged into the socket on the bike, one of these plugs is to ride the bike and connects the 3 parralelled pairs in series and connects them to the controller so the bike is running on a 18s2p pack, the other plug is on the end of the charger cable and connects the 3 pairs in parrlel as a 6s6p pack so that it can be charged by my 6s 306b icharger.
The balance leads from the 3 permanently parralelled pairs are all fed into a 25 pin d-sub connecter in the bike mounted socket, the individual wires are arranged as folows, pin 1,2 and 3 are the first wire from each pair, pins 4,5 and 6 are the second wire from each pair etc untill all the 7 wires from each balance cable is connected into the d-sub, this does leave 4 spare pins which could be used for a temp sensor in the pack so the charger can monitor the pack temps during charging.
The other part of the d-sub is on the end of the charger lead with pins 1,2 and 3 connected together terminating in a single wire, so are pins 4,5 and 6 etc, this results in 7 wires which go into the 6s balance port on the charger.
When the Bike run plug is removed the 18s2p pack is broken down into 3 6s2p groups and isolated from the controller, the charge plug connects these up as a 6s6p pack and connects the balance wires all together resulting in 6x 6p cell strings, the icharger can display the individual 6p cell string voltages, on initial connection of the charger any out of balance readings would indicate a problematic cell which would require the pack to be broken down further to identify the rogue cell, this has never happened, all the cells have remained perfectly balanced, probably helped by balance charging every time i charge.

I dont know how people create those fancy schematic diagrams so please excuse my drawn ones, if some one wants to reproduce these nice and fancy go ahead!

The balance lead loom and connectors;
Image

The pack assembled on the bench;
Image

This is a drawing of how the balance leads are connected;
Image

The socket on the bike;
Image

The run plug, this has the bridges between the connectors arranged as shown by the dotted lines in the drawing below.
Image
Image

The charging plug;
Image

I am sure my description will be lacking in some way so if you have any queries ask away,

Also, please get a good grasp and understanding of the principles involved here before you attempt to do something like this, the consequences of a wrong connection could be catastrophic!! Expensive, dangerous or both!!


Simon.
Project Two viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37489
Project one viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20304&hilit=tench

The uk's first Stealth Bomber
Tench
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby hjns » Mon May 07, 2012 9:50 am

Thanks a million! Very nice explanation and very inspirational!
Henk

High speed commuter w/ modified Lyen 18 FET 4110, 12AWG traces, extra Caps, beefed up shunt, modified Cromotor w/ thermistor, 10AWG phase wires. CAv3B22 with power-throttle limited to 8kW and 130oC motor winding temp, w/ GPS-enabled CA analogger. 20S 13.5Ah Lipo Zippy pack. Fusion FS frame, Fox RL rear shock, Fox F100 front fork, Schwalbe Fat Bob tires, HALO SAS 26inch rims with custom 12G(r) and 14G(f) black Sepim spokes from JRH and laced myself.
Commuter Cromotor build
User avatar
hjns
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:05 pm
Location: Basel, Switzerland

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby whereswally606 » Mon May 07, 2012 10:56 am

Tench,

A massive fan of the skills. Love the simplicity of this idea and like that it can be made more or less parallel. I do my 18s2p pack in to 9s2p halves but I went the route of a hyperion 1420i (i wanted the chance later on to buy some 4s packs so supplement my 3s subpacks to get a 14s/(28s in the distant future) pack running. I went the route of 3s packs cause the lipo lottery gives you more tickets this way if that makes sense. Thanks for your bank holiday drawings they were perfect to bring me up to speed on the parallel/series connection idea.

regards Andy
Buy a 400W 12Volt 32a server supply fitted to connect typical 4mm bullet plugs £25.30 to the UK, will ship WW. IM me for details
Ebikes: Scott Ransom & Magie Pie 48V limno2,Norco Team Race & Hub motor 12s4p lico zippy 40C
Norco Savage to receive an 80/100 motor with opticals Not halls Thanks Burtie.
Car: Honda Insight gen 1 hybrid
whereswally606
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:11 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby NeilP » Mon May 07, 2012 12:20 pm

What a neat and elegant solution, a lot of thought to make it really simple to use, stunning bit of work
Mongoose frame, Fox F100 forks,26x2.3 tyres
180mm disks
100V 20Ah LiPo
Lyen 18 FET 65 Amp,5304 in 26 inch Mavic rim

To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same shape as the puddle."
-- Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)
User avatar
NeilP
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4003
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:18 pm
Location: Jersey,Channel Islands,UK, Europe

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby ohzee » Mon May 07, 2012 12:42 pm

Yea I am impressed. Tech you seem to be one of those people who if they do it they do it right.

Love reading and looking at your results.
User avatar
ohzee
1 MW
1 MW
 
Posts: 1627
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:13 pm
Location: Columbus Ohio USA

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby NeilP » Mon May 07, 2012 1:03 pm

Looking closely, the only one thing I would say is the size of the power leads.
Looks like the loom that goes to the back of the block, is made of thinner wire than the wire coming out of the packs. i would have used a thicker gauge from teh T-piece to the block,and on to the controller
Mongoose frame, Fox F100 forks,26x2.3 tyres
180mm disks
100V 20Ah LiPo
Lyen 18 FET 65 Amp,5304 in 26 inch Mavic rim

To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same shape as the puddle."
-- Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)
User avatar
NeilP
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4003
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:18 pm
Location: Jersey,Channel Islands,UK, Europe

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby Tench » Mon May 07, 2012 1:16 pm

NeilP wrote:Looking closely, the only one thing I would say is the size of the power leads.
Looks like the loom that goes to the back of the block, is made of thinner wire than the wire coming out of the packs. i would have used a thicker gauge from teh T-piece to the block,and on to the controller

Hi Neil, all the cable is actually the same gauge, it maybe the fact that some of those cables are closer to the camera lens and the single point of view lacks perspective that leads the eye to believe they are different sizes (useless photographer :roll: )
Project Two viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37489
Project one viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20304&hilit=tench

The uk's first Stealth Bomber
Tench
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby NeilP » Mon May 07, 2012 2:14 pm

OK.

Still maybe be worth making those main wires up in 8 gauge, assuming t ewires from teh packs are I believe 10 gauge..go up a gauge where the currents from two packs combine. My 20s 4p pack is all made with 10 gauge too, the next build will go up a gauge where the packs are paralled
Mongoose frame, Fox F100 forks,26x2.3 tyres
180mm disks
100V 20Ah LiPo
Lyen 18 FET 65 Amp,5304 in 26 inch Mavic rim

To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same shape as the puddle."
-- Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)
User avatar
NeilP
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4003
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:18 pm
Location: Jersey,Channel Islands,UK, Europe

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby RPM » Thu May 10, 2012 2:44 pm

How did you do the connections inside the white plastic pieces? Did you cut them open then glue them back together?
RPM
1 µW
1 µW
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:07 pm

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby sn0wchyld » Tue May 22, 2012 6:44 pm

RPM wrote:How did you do the connections inside the white plastic pieces? Did you cut them open then glue them back together?


I dont think so, he drilled out the blocks from the side to slide the bars in, and bolted the bullets to them.

Speaking of which, how exactly do you bolt the bullet connectors on?
Got questions? hit up the wiki!
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

My builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29373
Norko Aline Park DH - Clyte HT3525 - 24s lipo
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=33657&p=534823#p534823
'02ish Avanti D8 - 8085 170kv - 5s 40ah lipo - ple80 recution
abject failure in september
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43143
RC driven Electric mountainboard - New vids up!
User avatar
sn0wchyld
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: South Aus.

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby Tench » Wed May 23, 2012 3:05 am

sn0wchyld wrote:
RPM wrote:How did you do the connections inside the white plastic pieces? Did you cut them open then glue them back together?


I dont think so, he drilled out the blocks from the side to slide the bars in, and bolted the bullets to them.

Speaking of which, how exactly do you bolt the bullet connectors on?


Thats right, the connection bars where fed in through the side holes and bolted to the bullets, i used these bullets as they had sufficient wall thickness to tap them M5 where the cable would normally be soldered in;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5x-6-5mm-Gold ... 4ab3e474eb
Project Two viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37489
Project one viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20304&hilit=tench

The uk's first Stealth Bomber
Tench
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby sn0wchyld » Wed May 23, 2012 8:07 am

Tench wrote:
sn0wchyld wrote:
RPM wrote:How did you do the connections inside the white plastic pieces? Did you cut them open then glue them back together?


I dont think so, he drilled out the blocks from the side to slide the bars in, and bolted the bullets to them.

Speaking of which, how exactly do you bolt the bullet connectors on?


Thats right, the connection bars where fed in through the side holes and bolted to the bullets, i used these bullets as they had sufficient wall thickness to tap them M5 where the cable would normally be soldered in;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5x-6-5mm-Gold ... 4ab3e474eb



holly balls mate you tapped the bullets?!?! that's something I'd never thought of! how good is the connection though/any chance of them working loose? or did you fill them with some conductive paste or something before screwing 'em in?
Got questions? hit up the wiki!
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

My builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29373
Norko Aline Park DH - Clyte HT3525 - 24s lipo
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=33657&p=534823#p534823
'02ish Avanti D8 - 8085 170kv - 5s 40ah lipo - ple80 recution
abject failure in september
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43143
RC driven Electric mountainboard - New vids up!
User avatar
sn0wchyld
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: South Aus.

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby Tench » Wed May 23, 2012 1:51 pm

sn0wchyld wrote:holly balls mate you tapped the bullets?!?! that's something I'd never thought of! how good is the connection though/any chance of them working loose? or did you fill them with some conductive paste or something before screwing 'em in?


I had to make a clamp to hold the bullets from spinning so i could tighten the bolts enough, the clamp also had to fit inside the female bullets so the clamp didnt colapse them. i also had to machine the bolts to exactly the right length and reduce the bolt head dia, took more than a few hours on the lathe to get all the components ready for assembly!
Project Two viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37489
Project one viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20304&hilit=tench

The uk's first Stealth Bomber
Tench
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby Planky » Wed May 23, 2012 4:11 pm

Tench that's a very nice way to overcome the mess of wires I have in my 18s3p pack that I have to split to 6s packs for charging.

I will have to re-read this a few times to completely get it then I am off to source the bits.
Thanks for the excellent explanation. :D :D
User avatar
Planky
10 W
10 W
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:11 pm
Location: The Sunny Isle of Wight, UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby megacycle » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:38 am

Question Tench,
When all the balance leads come together for charging, has the out of balance at cell level between batteries been a problem ?
E.g. does battery 1 cell 1, being different from battery 3 cell 1 cause any arcing on insertion of the dsub connector.
Considering this as i have the same zippy pack build happening, but using a switch instead of plug & socket solution
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40875, tag strip :oops: HK stuffing me around.
The next job was issues with balance leads, or if it was needed if medic's or similar were hanging off each 2P group.
Iron Horse SGS Pro DH.
72V 16AH lipo. 3kW charging system.
Modded Crystalyte 72V/50A, regen, 3 stage overcurrent.
4060 ☆/\, 20mm cover holes.
Hyena supplied motor (much appreciated Onya mate)
5404 next build giant strata, A123 20Ah, 72/large.
User avatar
megacycle
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:41 am
Location: South Australia

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby rojitor » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:52 am

Very nice setup, i understand how you did this parallel wire
Image
But i do not understand how you did the parallel wire from the charger
Image
User avatar
rojitor
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 566
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: vigo spain

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby Tench » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:31 pm

megacycle wrote:Question Tench,
When all the balance leads come together for charging, has the out of balance at cell level between batteries been a problem ?
E.g. does battery 1 cell 1, being different from battery 3 cell 1 cause any arcing on insertion of the dsub connector.
Considering this as i have the same zippy pack build happening, but using a switch instead of plug & socket solution
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40875, tag strip :oops: HK stuffing me around.
The next job was issues with balance leads, or if it was needed if medic's or similar were hanging off each 2P group.

I have never noticed any arcing, each time i have connected the charger all the cell voltages displayed by the charger which is in fact the voltages of the 6p strings are identical. Any one cel in the pack that was lower would be supported by its permanently parralleled mate, these would also be supported by the other 2 pairs when connected for charging, so during charging they are all perfectly balanced as they are connected to each so cannot be anything other. During discharging they have upto now remained in perfect balance.
Project Two viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37489
Project one viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20304&hilit=tench

The uk's first Stealth Bomber
Tench
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby Tench » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:35 pm

rojitor wrote:Very nice setup, i understand how you did this parallel wire

But i do not understand how you did the parallel wire from the charger
Image


The pins in the D-sub connector on the charge lead each connect into a 2p cell group when plugged into the bike, then 3 of these pins are terminated into 1 wire, so this termination is connecting 3 2p groups into 1 6p group, the end result is 7 wires which go to the balance port on the icharger.
Project Two viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37489
Project one viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20304&hilit=tench

The uk's first Stealth Bomber
Tench
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby megacycle » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:37 am

Expect the leads are adding resistance probably limiting current to an extent that's good was thinking might need to limit currents won't bother now.
Thanks
Iron Horse SGS Pro DH.
72V 16AH lipo. 3kW charging system.
Modded Crystalyte 72V/50A, regen, 3 stage overcurrent.
4060 ☆/\, 20mm cover holes.
Hyena supplied motor (much appreciated Onya mate)
5404 next build giant strata, A123 20Ah, 72/large.
User avatar
megacycle
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:41 am
Location: South Australia

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby cohberg » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:25 pm

Echoing everyone's amazement; one small question thought: do you not need a precharge system at 18s or is the voltage low enough? (At least I can't seem to see one in the pictures and diagram. It would be simple enough to figure one in, but I'd like to hear what you would come up with. Perhaps a Jeremy/Kfong comparable soft start system?
Build 5.0 - Commuter (Active) | 18xIRFB4115@50A | 30S2P 10Ah | GM Rear Hub | V2100 | CST-Cyclops | XC 28
Build 5.1 - Chain Virgin (Halted) | HPM5000B | 11.4:1 reduction ( 12:32 - 9:38) | HPC300 72V300A | 20S5P 25Ah
User avatar
cohberg
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:33 pm
Location: Berkeley, California

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby cal3thousand » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:24 pm

I am trying to make a pack for one of my projects that will accept a plug for several channels like you have there with the brass fittings.

What kind of plastic is that and how did you imbed those fittings? I'm impressed and would like to be able to mimic.
#1: Diamondback Menona 700c (Commuter)
M/C: e-BikeKit geared rear w/BB7 with 12FET 40A Infineon ebikes.ca
GM 48V LiFePO4 10Ah racked; moving to 12S Turnigy 10Ah framed
+ Speedict, XC30TK disc, Alex Adventurer 700c Disc, Tektro 180mm hyd. with 42mm Kenda Urban


#2: Norco VPS Six DH (Fun) WIP
M/C: Clyte HT3525 (Thanks Meth!!!) http://Methtek.com with Lyen 18FET 24S Regen
Battery: 24S Turnigy 10Ah frame (ABS)

#3: Wifey Bike, Giant eSuede fully customized WIP
cal3thousand
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1125
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:47 pm
Location: California

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby SweKen » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:15 am

Great piece of art. I would appriciate if you could show a picture from underneath the carbon fibre lid on your charger assembly, i would love to se the balance wiring down ther to. :-)e
SweKen
100 mW
100 mW
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:22 am
Location: Sweden

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby itchynackers » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:24 am

Tench and others. If you use these connectors, be sure to get rid of the metal frame edge (around the male/female pins). I had a setup like this, and if you aren't careful (me) and you accidentally put the metal frame in contact with 2 of the male pins while you are plugging in, then pins/wires will melt. Don't ask how I know this.

Adam
9c 9x7f w/ 12awg phases
9c 8x8r w/ 10awg phases, temp sensor, vented
9c 6x10r w/ 10awg phases, temp sensor, liquid cooled, 3rd Place Pikes Peak 2012!

"Don't argue with the galactically stupid...they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
itchynackers
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:11 am
Location: Janesville, WI

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby SweKen » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:57 am

And if I understand this right you are just charging 12s (6sx2) at a time?
SweKen
100 mW
100 mW
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:22 am
Location: Sweden

Re: My series parralel changer

Postby pendragon8000 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:01 am

great thread. thanks.
User avatar
pendragon8000
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:29 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Return to E-Bike Technical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CVillalobos, mdd0127, Timmey and 9 guests