HPC Cycle vs. DIY advice

[jonnyc]

I was just about to pull the trigger on a HPC electric bike and happened to swing by this forum. It appears the general consensus is these bikes are well built but overpriced. I've tried to glean the info required to build something myself on this forum but am having a hard time.

I would like to build a bike that has excellent climbing power as I live in a river valley and go up and down the hill everyday. Top speed is not as important, anywhere between 20 and 30 mph will do. I weigh about 190 lbs and wouldn't need the bike to go any further than 20 miles on a charge.

Can you guys recommend a bike, motor, battery, controller etc... combo that would work to accomplish my goals. Cost is a concern but i'm willing to spend what I have to to get what I need.

[GMUseless]

Welcome to ES. You came to the right place.

Many will answer you're questions...and you'll appreaciate dogman's comments immensely as he's the de facto newbie Welcome wagon. But to help everyone help you, please add a few more details:

1) Wherein the world are you located? (helps us with vendors,etc)

2) What's your actual budget? (helps us bring you into reality )

3) What's your typical usage? (Commuting, joy riding, tear-assing and general mayhem?)

4) What's your experience level with DIY, mechanically and electrically?

5) What's your expectation of the bike: (utility appliance or ever-tinkering hobby?)

6) What's your environment? High winds? What grade are your hills and how far do they climb?


Try to address those and that will help the advice roll in....

[jonnyc]

Hey, thank you very much for the warm welcome.

1. Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

2. Budget: I'd like to spend somewhere between $1500 - $2000 but have some flexibility.

3. Typical Usage: I wish it was tear-assing and general mayhem but its really just going to be transporting me to work, the grocery store, etc.... general commuting, but i would like it to be fun and torquey! especially with the big hills I'm surrounded by.

4. I'm not very experienced with DIY, I would likely have a bike mechanic help me with the nitty gritty.

5. Expectations: Utility, low maintenance/tinkering is best once its built.

6. Environment: it does get quite windy at times and the hill I will be going up and down everyday is quite steep. Unfortuneatly I do not have the exact grade but I can tell you its one of those hills thats a bit scary to go down even in a car. It's quite long also, approximately 1000 feet.

Hope this helps, the advice will be much appreciated.

[jasonf150]

I'll let the people that know way more than me chime in on specifics. But I was in your exact spot a few months ago. IMO, it's better to put something together yourself because then you're more familiar with all the components. Follow the advice you get here and you won't be dissapointed. I had pretty much no experience with bikes and I was able to put my kit together. definitely build it yourself. You'll be happier and you'll spend less money.

[amberwolf]

I haven't got any specific component advice, but if you want to go 20-30MPH up a hill that steep, you're going to need a hefty battery, as it's going to take a fair bit of power to do it. It will also take a motor that can handle the heat, or you will need to cool the motor somehow (geared hubs are probably out but some might survive that, I suppose). Controller might also need cooling, or to get a much bigger one than usual to handle the load and heat at the same time.

If you can find out the actual grade and length of the hill, you can input your data into one of the many online EV (or bike) power calculators around the web and determine how much power (watts) you will need to climb that hill at the speed you want with the weight you have, and that will give you a starting point for the motor, controller, and battery requirements.

Once you knwo what it will take to do what you want, I would also recommend checking out the simulator over on http://ebikes.ca to see which motors might work for your situation without overheating. That is also a good reliable place to purchase from.

[jonnyc]

To clarify, I don't need to go 30 mph up the hill. I just want it to get up the hill confidently. I'd like it to cruise at around 25 to 30 mph on level ground.

I will look into getting the grade information as well.

Thanks again for everyone's help so far. Keep the suggestions coming.

[dogman]

I think you will get recomended to build something quite similar to an HPC bike.

But you may want to run a power level more likely to last awhile than some of HPC's creations.

Since you are in canada, you should swing by the Grin Cyclery site. This fourum is courtesy of Grins owner, but the reason you go to grin is for thier simulator, and one of the better explanations on the web of how ebike motors work.

If your grades are below 10%, chances are you would be well served by a crystalyte HT motor. Your budget is big enough to go to Grin to get it. Hard to beat in country CS later if you need it. But we can recomend some more affordable straight from china vendors you can trust.

That 1000f linear or vertical? 1000f vertical at 5-6 % is no sweat for any direct drive motor kit. Iv'e been doing a hill like that to get home for years. The same bike has done 3000f vertical, with the last 1000 at 10%.

It's above 10% grade where things get tricky. Then you start to need a lot more power, and possibly an extremely slow winding motor. Well get more specific later when you give us the hill data. Grade in % and length in miles.

In general, you need to be able to keep moving at least 15 mph up a hill with a hubmotor, or it will fry itself. Only the extremely slow winding motors can climb hills slower. Using typical kit motors and 48v, it's generally easy enough to pedal enough to keep your speed at 15 mph on 10% grades.

[BlackArrow]

Hi Jonny,

Cellman here as the perfect kit for you, just ask him, I have a hard tail bike like Neptronix ebike and love my ebike with the MAC kit. This ebike at 48 Volt as top speed of about 55 Km/m (30 Mph) on flat paved ground and I can climb almost anything with it, in the worse case scenario, I just have to pedal to help the motor a little but it's happened very rarely even in steepest hills.

Just take look at my signature the big "Black Arrow ebike" will be back in the road in about a week or so, but this thing is a different beast compare to my hard tail ebike.

I have (2) different ebikes for different uses, good day!

Black Arrow

[jonnyc]

Hey Dogman,

Thanks for the info.

I ran some quick numbers using google maps and a site called daftlogic http://www.daftlogic.com/sandbox-google-maps-find-altitude.htm which gives google map point altitudes. Not sure how accurate it is, but it seems like it provides a good approximation. I get a grade of approximately 12% and a 900 ft. length. However, the initial lead in to the hill (first 150 ft.) may be slightly shallower.

BlackArrow, thanks much for the suggestions, I will do some research on it.

[Ypedal]

Being in AB, i'd def recommend getting the kit from ebikes.ca .. with a Cycle Analyst aka " CA " .. this will show you in digital numbers how much power you are using, have used, and have left in the pack.. vital data to keep your mind at ease on an ebike..

Next, as said above, it's all about the battery, get a 40 amp controller vs a 20 so that you can deliver power to the motor and not bog down.. and no less than 48v *( skip the 36v )

Do you already have a bike ? or are you bicycle shopping ?

[jonnyc]

Yup, ebikes seems like the go to place so if I can get what I need from them i'll definitely use them, probably avoid some brokerage fees too. I'll take your advice on the CA, sounds like a good idea.

Would the Crystalyte HS35 kit with the 48v 10Ah LiMn battery pack Grin offers get me up that hill?

I am bike shopping, would appreciate some recommendations, don't mind buying used if I can save a couple bucks.

[mvly]

Hey, thank you very much for the warm welcome.

1. Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
----- Yes like other say, try out the Grin

2. Budget: I'd like to spend somewhere between $1500 - $2000 but have some flexibility.
----- Totally doable. you just need to keep careful track of what you spend on. Battery will most likely cost you the most if you are getting reliable battery. Do not get Lead Acid battery!

3. Typical Usage: I wish it was tear-assing and general mayhem but its really just going to be transporting me to work, the grocery store, etc.... general commuting, but i would like it to be fun and torquey! especially with the big hills I'm surrounded by.
----- You mentioned grocery shopping. This will mean a rack/trailer. Also you will need to be able to lock it up properly. Just FYI, most DYI ebike will not be easily lockable and can be very conspicuous because of the battery and bag, etc.
----- If you want something torquey, then you will need smaller wheels. 20inch wheel are the best on HS3540 for torque and 30+mph.

4. I'm not very experienced with DIY, I would likely have a bike mechanic help me with the nitty gritty.
----- If this is the case, I recommend you avoid DYI. You will run into problems and if you are not experience, it will mean a lot of headaches. But then again, you will learn a lot. It is really up to you if you are willing to spend the time to learn.

5. Expectations: Utility, low maintenance/tinkering is best once its built.
----- Get Direct Drive motor. If you are going to tackle the hills with the usual 26inch, I recommend HT3525 Motor. Just use 72V battery and you are set for 30+mph on flats. Get Lyen's 12 or 18 FET Controller and you will be set. Otherwise, get the HS3540 on a 20in wheel and you will similar setup. Like other people are saying here, keep the motor moving during the uphill to prevent frying the motor.

6. Environment: it does get quite windy at times and the hill I will be going up and down everyday is quite steep. Unfortuneatly I do not have the exact grade but I can tell you its one of those hills thats a bit scary to go down even in a car. It's quite long also, approximately 1000 feet.
----- See number 5.

Hope this helps, the advice will be much appreciated.

Here is a summary of what I recommend:
1) Go to the Grin if possible
2) Don't do DYI if you are NOT willing to spend hours on learning and tinkering
3) If you do decide to go DYI, then get HS3540 on 20inch wheel or HT3525 on 26inch. Both should be on 72V Lithium battery to get you 30+mph on flats and good torque on startup.
4) Get rear drive kit. Don't go with those front wheel drive bullshit.
5) Get Lipo if you are adventurous. Once you get use to it, it will provide you with reliable power pack. I am using Lipo now for about 4-5 months. You just have to be careful a bit.
6) Otherwise if you are concern about safety, just go with Cellman's A123 LiFePo4. You can go NMC, but those have low C rating so it might be good especially at 72V.
7) Get Full Suspension bike to convert if possible. You will not regret it! Just make sure you have a good torque arm

Best of luck on the build. I have a feeling that you will probably like your 2nd build a lot better.

[Should be working]

On the other end of the spectrum, I spent $3K on a ready-to-go Focus Jarifa Speed with a middrive motor. Great torque for the very steep hills here in the bay area. I ride up hills that no one thought were rideable, including me. I love the bike. The only downside is the price, but I had no interest in tinkering, no knowledge, no time to do it, and this thing really works and is sooo smooth and easy. On this forum people gave great, albeit sometimes conflicting, DIY advice and I would otherwise have bought a bike and put a geared hub on it via ebikessf.com. But for me, the ready-to-go and the wonderful middrive were priority.

[dogman]

I could type everyting mlvy just wrote again, but I won't. He's got the recomendations dead on.

You need a higher powered battery to blast up that hill. 12% is not that bad if short enough. 900ft long is plenty short. 900 ft tall would be much longer.

So get an HT motor for 26", and blast up it with 30-40 amps of 48v or more. Once you get into hills several miles long steeper than 10%, another approach may be needed. But you should be fine with a basic kit from grin, with a controller from the larger amps end of the list.

Grins battery is fine for the lower power setups, or flatter riding. You need cellmans A123's for a peppy controller.

[jonnyc]

Just had a look at the Focus Jarifa. Definitely looks interesting.
I'm not all that excited about tinkering either, however it seems as though the kits offered from ebikes and other good vendors are more plug an play than DIY. I hope I'm right about this because I don't want to get in too deep. Buying something today that is already assembled is very tempting, but it does seem like the general consensus here is it's not great value for money.

More suggestions on pre built bikes and alternative part configurations would be greatly appreciated.

I think I am leaning toward the Crystalyte HS35 kit, but still unsure about the battery.

[jonnyc]

Just finished a weekend of searching for a bike and think I may have found something interesting but would like some input.

Santa Cruz makes a frame called the Jackal. It's a trick frame which I'm not thrilled about, however it has replaceable dropouts which seem very beefy and its nice and light.



I realize it does not leave much space for the battery, but i'm thinking this may an option.

Any input would be much appreciated!

[john7700]

Just finished a weekend of searching for a bike and think I may have found something interesting but would like some input.

Santa Cruz makes a frame called the Jackal. It's a trick frame which I'm not thrilled about, however it has replaceable dropouts which seem very beefy and its nice and light.

I realize it does not leave much space for the battery, but i'm thinking this may an option.

Any input would be much appreciated!

That bike is all wrong for your needs, it is a DJ bike that is basically an over grown bmx. Not good for a commuter build. And that drop out is about running a derailleur (or not) not the tire drop outs per say.

You want a traditional diamond frame bike. You don't need to spend a lot. Just an entry level mountain bike. For a hard tail you would be looking for something like a Trek 3 series (~$475 retail) http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/sport/3_series/3500_disc/# or Specialized Hardrock http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCProduct.jsp?spid=62175&scid=1100&scname=Mountain Bikes like these are usually available used from Crags list or such. Just try to get one with disk brakes if you can, not mandatory but much better than rim breaks. Try to avoid Wall*mart type "bike shaped objects" as Dogman calls them.

Rear hub Kit from Grinn with CA
A123 Battery and frame bag from cell man if your budget lets you. If not a Ping.
A torque arm
A miracle mirror
A beefy rear rack
A pair of fold-able steel paniers
A beefy kick stand.

Some solder, some connectors, a couple of afternoons in the garage and 400 zip ties

= A good solid commuter rig.

Start Grinning

[jonnyc]

Sounds like a much easier pill to swallow.

Thanks for the guidance!

[dogman]

The choice of the bike to put the kit on opens a whole new can of worms to decide on. The standard advice is to look for a dirt cheap used steel frame hardtail mtb or commuter bike. Putting the kit on that bike teaches you what you need, what you like, and then you can start shopping for a $500-$1500 bike to build up into your perfect commuters road machine.

You may want fat tires or skinny, you may want more suspension or less. The road will tell you what your likes are, after you put 500 miles on the cheap steel bike.