How to fuse sprag clutch so no freewheel on elation

[Stumper]

*EDIT: I visited an engineering workshop this morn and I think I have a solution. See second post below.

So my sprag clutch has never worked............ so my ev bike has never worked.... so I'm trying to find a solution, ....and a sway between giving up and get a hub.........and then I think of something else I could try to do with the elation gearbox/motor:

If I some how fuse the sprag to the output shaft (ie replace it with something so that there is no longer a free wheel there) will that just mean I have to turn the motor over with the pedals if I ride without the motor turned on? And how much resistance would it be. Would it be no different to a DD hub?

Does anybody have ideas for how I could do this?

If it worked I might try to get a cyclone 14T freewheel on the output shaft in the future..

P8060008 crop reduced & annotated.jpg (34.4 KiB) Viewed 1517 times

( EDIT: a Fitter/machinist has had a look at this and he says of that gear above that is not keyed, it would weld on with heat and there's no sign at all of slippage.)
Thanks

Stumper

[Stumper]

I spoke to a machinist this morning. He said he can do a new output shaft for $100. It will key lock inside the final gear, in place of the sprag clutch. On the output side of the gearbox it will be machined to match the Cyclone 14T freewheel (at 20mm I.D. for the Cyclone it may need a bush on the output shaft aslo??):

2004421509source_picture_311774.jpg (44.48 KiB) Viewed 1484 times

Can anyone confirm which I need? CCW OR CW? (At only $8 I might just buy both, assuming there'll be no extra for postage on the second one).

What do people think of this as a plan of attack?

BUT - elation output sprocket is only 10T. Wondering if I should get the 7T Cyclone:

2004421585source_picture_769554.jpg (11.08 KiB) Viewed 1484 times

Cheers -
Stumper
. . . . .and slightly more optimistic - after 10 months of owner this thing and not having it work.

[Stumper]

I've just ordered the parts from the above post from Cyclone TW. Tops!

[bikeola]

Hi Stumper,
Just picked up the V3 offset motor at the Post Office, sent Sept.9, total cost for its Warranty Ocean Holiday $160, and took the gear cover off. The sprag is all sproinged. The cover washer of the sprags is all bent up. The sprags were jumbled around like a losing boxer's teeth. The spring doesn't look that good either. No evidence of a spring clip which might have held the cover washer in place. All in all not well manufactured or engineered for its intended use. The quality of the materials seems fine, but there are flaws in the build. That's a pity because it's a good design: Ecospeed. Try to rebuild the sprag cover

Elation V3

stronger and try not to drive the thing too hard. First find out what direction the output shaft rotates so the asymmetrical little sprag teeth can be pointed tail-back. Did you get your fused-sprag Cyclone 14 freewheel going? I hope you have had luck with it. Do I need the eLation? No, but the idea is good, and trying to get it to work is interesting. As the BionxPL350 Trice T shows, motors are fun, but there have been several problems with that too. Let us know how your eLation is puffing up or suffering defLation.
Motor on.
Andrew

[bikeola]

G'day,
Today found the mangled retainer ring in the blob of grease inside the housing. Will have to find replacements for it, the spring, and probably the cover washer. Still looks under-engineered in the harsh light of day, but I think I've figured out the orientation of the sprag teeth. Did you ever pop your sprag clutch apart to see why it didn't work? Maybe it was incorrectly assembled, as I fear mine may have been. If your sprag parts are in good shape, the ones I mention above, would you be willing to put them in a letter, if you've done what you said you were going to do with Cyclone? The thing looks like it should work if it was put together correctly. The output cog is CW drive, CCW freewheel, but you must know that by now.
Spin!
Andrew

[Stumper]

G'day,
Today found the mangled retainer ring in the blob of grease inside the housing. Will have to find replacements for it, the spring, and probably the cover washer. Still looks under-engineered in the harsh light of day, but I think I've figured out the orientation of the sprag teeth. Did you ever pop your sprag clutch apart to see why it didn't work? Maybe it was incorrectly assembled, as I fear mine may have been. If your sprag parts are in good shape, the ones I mention above, would you be willing to put them in a letter, if you've done what you said you were going to do with Cyclone? The thing looks like it should work if it was put together correctly. The output cog is CW drive, CCW freewheel, but you must know that by now.
Spin!
Andrew

Hi Bikeola

That looks like one messed up little gear box!

Yes I did pull my sprag apart completely. It looked absolutely perfect. And I put it back together and it seemed to work at probably about 50% of what it's meant to do, for about 1 km, and then it started slipping again. I spoke to a bike shop mechanic here that use to assemble these kits on to bikes for Elation. His experience of Elation sprag failures in the chain ring was that you could not see any evidence of damage when you pulled them apart. But when you put it back together it just wouldn't work. So he confirmed what I found with mine (although in the gearbox). He told me to assume it is the sprag because that is the most likely point of failure.

So to answer your other qn, yes I can send the sprag to you if I get to the point of fusing the final stage gear onto the out put shaft (which is still in process - awaiting the local engineering shop to get on to it - my motor is sitting in his workshop), but I don't believe it will solve your problem - as my sprag doesn't work either. I don't think mine was assembled incorrectly - it just doesn't seem to work. I even tried it in both directions (it's a hassle to re-assemble and get it onto the shaft - believe me!).

The workshop has got the Cyclone sprocket. If the new shaft and cyclone sprocket makes my kit work then it would confirm the sprag is the problem. I'll post the dimensions of the new shaft for you or anyone else to copy (to get a machinist to turn for you). But realistically the machinist should just have the motor to work from. Hopefully I want have to wait too much longer.
Thanks for posting.

Cheers
Stumper

[bikeola]

Hi Stumper,
Sorry about the delay in my reply; other nonsense interfering with the important stuff. Thanks for the info about the sprag failures, so I don't think I'll try to fix the one I've got, and I don't think I'll take you up on your kind offer to send the bits to me. I see that the Cyclone motor has a 9-tooth primary gear into its triple gear gearbox, and the one for the eLation is a 10 for the double gear box. If I give up on the gearbox of the eLation, maybe I can get a 9-tooth motor gear, and a Cyclone gearbox, but meanwhile I'll wait to see how your attempt pans out. Wonder what the rest of Mr.Dow's victims are doing...
Thanks.
Here's a Cyclone:

[DeLation]

HI All concerned, In regards to the sprag clutch problem (which happened to be twice), there is a workable solution, particularly as elation has gone out of business.
I luckily found a supplier that designs a similar chainwheel system, all be it with two chainwheels rather that the three. The person that helped me, Dean, was very helpful and although he was unable to remove the damgaged sprag clutch, he made me a custom made version which uses a similar system all be it with a ratchet rather than sprag.

I successfully refitted the replacement with a few technical considerations and it works brilliantly.

The motor mount bracket is adjustable (v1.1 bike) to allow motor drive alignment with the outer chainwheel. I had to romove the mount to extend the lenth of the four slots that are the binding/adjustment system so that the motor moves in towards the frame, This was easy to do with the most basic of tools (drill and files).
As mentioned, I loose a chainwheel ring but the replacement was a 22-44-44 (motor driven) and the front derailleur had no problem coping with the huge difference in ring size. So even though the bike is now 16 speed instead of 24, I find I still have the full range of gears for speed and torque! As for the derailleur itself, limiting the mechanical stops accounts for the loss of one of the speeds available and you don't really notice it.
The only other consideration, and this was allowed for, is that the package included replacement bottom bracket carrtige which is the typical shimano type with the threaded sleaves that supports the bearings. NOTE: I had to substitute the sleaves as they had a different thread pitch! Couldn't tell by eye, but sure as hell could after a turn or two, luckily, they were interchangeable so it was easy to use the old ones on the new spindle.

So, if you don't want to loose all the benefits of your old (but dead) sprag clutch.. Definitely consider checking out edealsbargains.com.au. It was a little costly, but that included custom work and the level of customer service and really prompt responses gave me a very satisfactory...sorry, excellent outcome and I have a new goto man for basically all my e bike needs (Although I still would recommend LI-PING batteries as this has also been a very happy thing for me too)

Cheers

[boostjuice]

I hope you didnt get shafted too hard when swallowing Dean's considerable markup on resold Cyclone parts

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-chainwheel.htm

[lesspedal]

Delation,

I notice on another site that you have Toe clips fitted, I would not use them if I were you,
Your new fw from dean is no doubt a Dicta, same as v1 elation.
A warning here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1926&hilit=zilla&start=30#p89524
and another thread on this page.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=25153

[Stumper]

In regards to the sprag clutch problem (which happened to be twice), there is a workable solution, particularly as elation has gone out of business.

Was your problem the sprag in the gear box or the sprag in the chain wheel? Can you post pics of your working kit? My machinists (after 10 weeks) says the sahft he's working on for me should only be a few days now . . . . to complete the fix for my gear box sprag (describe in earlier postings in this thread). Yeah right . . . .

[Stumper]

IT WORKS!!!!!

After owning this elation kit for 14 months I have finally got it to work. The local machine shop took 5 months to make me up a little shaft with bush etc to fit the Cyclone 14T freewheel.

I had to get a new drive chain to fit the 14 tooth sprocket, and accommodate it being further away from the chain ring for clearance (particularly for the middle chain ring - see photo below).

What you can't see in the photo below: the original sprag clutch is removed - thrown far away. A bush was put in it's place to accommodate the new shaft. A pin was put thru these. The bush and shaft was pressed into the final gear in the gear box and a tack weld added.

The gear box was then fully assembled and the casing bolted on.

On the output shaft seen in photo below: a bush was added to bring it up to 20mm O.D.. A pin was put thru bush and shaft. The freewheel was then pressed onto bush. Grub screw hole drilled into bush. Grub screw tightened to further secure freewheel.

Result? This thing has so much power to get me home up the big hills without any peddaling!!! It's fantastic!!!! (But will it last???)

[Stumper]

Just figured out the steepest part of my drive way is a 9% gradient (9 metre rise over for 100m), on gravel and my elation kit gets up it in 2nd gear easily without me pedalling!!!
I did about a 12km ride from my house and went up some very step hills and did very little pedalling (only because I'm sick at the moment). battery was still registering full when I got home.

[Stumper]

[size=200]It's broken again!.[/size]

Well I got about 3 months of moderate use before it's broken again. I've got the gearbox off it and it just aint turning smoothly and seems to get into positions where it locks up and then the motor gets to it's cut out point. I'm back to where I was 18 months ago. I big white elephant sitting on the bottom bracket of my bike. Oh - by the way - I did my knee in 6 weeks ago so I'm very dependent on the motor to be able to do my commute. What a stuff up. Might as well go buy a ZOCO™ ROSSA or an Aseako or a Cyclone kit . . . .brrrrrrr

[DAND214]

You know the alternative. One DD coming up.

Dan

[Stumper]

You know the alternative. One DD coming up.
Dan

Yeah but it' all about hills for me. Hills is where I live!