E-max 110s lifepo4 upgrade

[yokneamcity]

I'm not taking photos inside. Just opened it and looked.
At the top cell contacts to PCB board. Contacts are in the slots on the PCB board and soldered to the board. On top of the PCB, the contacts are connected by wires.
Everything was done neatly.
After upgrade to lithium, the scooter much more dynamic.

[flexy]

Sounds great, and thank you for the rack

[mizuh]

Nice job!! How much it costs?

[yokneamcity]

Nice job!! How much it costs?

LiFePo4 Prismatic cells A123 20A/H 48 pcs- 1050 USD
BMS CC-85A , Peack 200A - 90 USD
Charger- 48V-10A -95 USD
Shipment by DHL-- 350 USD (30 kg)
Total- 1585 USD

[yokneamcity]

Sounds great, and thank you for the rack

[flexy]

I have found a PSU which can power the 48V logic unit form a >70V supply.

48V 2.5A 120W Mains Switching Adaptor Power Supply.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120890412651?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1330wt_827
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8208701/Electric%20scooters/IMG_20120513_125306.jpg

Hopefully this will get things working, though I'm not happy that it adds more complexity to the bike. The other option is to replace the entire wiring loom on the bike with a basic one, I have heard a few bad stories of Emax's going haywire in the wet and I'm sure all extra connectors and signal wires they have added cause this.

[rgody]

I recently got an E-max 110s 2008 model.

This comes with the stock 48V SLA battery and 4000W motor.




I would like to upgrade it to a 72V Lifepo4 pack.

I am getting an 18 fet controller from Lyen
I'm planning to build a pack from Headway 40152S cells, in 24s 5p configuration to give me a 60Ah pack.

The main problem I have is the existing 48V motor controller and the control box for the other scooter electrics are all in proprietary sealed circuits.


So my main concern is fitting the new controller without affecting the existing functions.

All the visible capacitors on the existing controller and DC/DC convertor are 63V so that rules out using them with higher voltage.

Should I leave the existing controller powered from a 72-48V dc-dc convertor and keep the electrics running off that, or completely remove it and attempt to rewire as a basic scooter wiring loom?

I have no schematics for this bike, if anyone has one it would be much appreciated.

Here you can find some controller's schematics :

http://www.proud-eagle.com/pro6.asp
http://www.proud-eagle.com/pro10.asp

Terminal 8 is +12V_Out as you can see in table "Definition of connector terminals"


I have one of this motor and a controller that Im testing for EV project.
I have a 45A controller manual (in doc format) if you need.

Regards
Rodrigo
Viña del Mar, Chile

[flexy]

Thanks rgody, that's good information , I see they make the motors too . My controller must be an older model than the one they have shown, I'm replacing it with a Lyen 18FET but this would be a good starting point for anyone wanting to use the existing components.

It says here that the logic unit can run at up to 80V so for 60V conversions it should be fine.I wouldn't risk it at 24s lifepo4 though that can be at 84V off the charger.
http://www.proud-eagle.com/pro8.asp

Edit; that MSU is not the the same as the one I have, it must be the newer version.

[rgody]

I didnt buy the MSU unit (http://www.proud-eagle.com/pro8.asp). I dont have the manual for it.
But here is the manual tha controller I have (looks like yours) :

Controller user manua- proud-eagle.doc

Controller manual

(463.5 KiB) Downloaded 106 times

good luck!!

Regards

[yokneamcity]

A lot of interesting information came.
Thanks for the controller documentation.

Last week, I punctured the rear wheel. To seal it, I took off the wheel. Weighed it and took a few photos.
No tire wheel weighs 20 kg.

[yokneamcity]

I didnt buy the MSU unit (http://www.proud-eagle.com/pro8.asp). I dont have the manual for it.
But here is the manual tha controller I have (looks like yours) :

Controller user manual proud-eagle.doc

good luck!!

Regards

As far as I understand it, the controller does not regenerate

[flexy]

I have tested the motor at 72V, it runs a little rough at low speeds on the Lyen controller.

The Cycle Analyst seems to lose ability to read speed at 60mph, the pulses maybe too fast. From the sound frequncy I estimate it's going up to 70mph + . This will probably equal 50mph+ on the road.



I got stuck with the rest of the wiring;
I got the MSU to work from the 72-48v DC/DC ,when I turn the key, it turns everything on including the new controller.

When I turn the main lights on, it shuts down and restarts the MSU and "system error 01" appears on the dashboard.
According to the instructions this means

'Memory of speedometer defect. Exchange speedometer if message is still there.'

Very frustrating

[flexy]

I found a workaround.

I was taking a 15V output from a pad on the controller pcb to switch on the MSU, it turns out there is too much current draw when the scooter lights are on.

So now I have added a 48-12V DC/DC to power pin 8 on the MSU, this is turned on by a relay, which is switched by the 15V controller pad.

Now the lighting works and the bike turns on and off from the key switch

This has added more complexity and the 2 DC/DC's will be a battery drain.

I still want to replace the wiring loom with a traditional one, it will be much more reliable. I might have to make one. Does anyone one know of a basic scooter wiring loom/harness that you can retrofit to other bikes?

[battman]

The Cycle Analyst seems to lose ability to read speed at 60mph, the pulses maybe too fast.(

If the problem is the pulse duration being too short, rather than the frequency of pulses being too high, then this might be addressed by positioning the magnet and sensor closer to the center of the hub so that the velocity at which the magnet moves past the sensor is lower.

[flexy]

Thanks battman, unfortunately my CA is reading pulses from one of the hall sensor leads inside the controller, I guess if I used an external speed sensor your method would work great. I'm sure there is a way of tidying up the signal so it's easier for the CA to read.

[flexy]

I have road tested the bike with my ecrazyman 18fet contoller. motor was cogging at slow spped, it smoothed out as I sped up to 20mph, but there was an occasional bump like the motor was missing a beat.
It was drawing 5kw as I climbed a hill , the controller became quite hot and then fets must have blown.

I think this motor needs a bigger controller, I don't want to risk blowing my Lyen 18fet, so I think I need something bigger.

Can anyone recommend a controller that would work, the Lyen 24fet looks promising, also Kelly controllers, but they have many different versions and I'm not sure which would be suitable.

[jonescg]

You could try a Sevcon, but I don't know how they like being overvolted. But pretty much all of the Kelly controllers would work fine. I'd recommend a 300 A Kelly just to be on the safe side.

Cheers,
Chris

[rgody]

I have road tested the bike with my ecrazyman 18fet contoller. motor was cogging at slow spped, it smoothed out as I sped up to 20mph, but there was an occasional bump like the motor was missing a beat.
It was drawing 5kw as I climbed a hill , the controller became quite hot and then fets must have blown.

I think this motor needs a bigger controller, I don't want to risk blowing my Lyen 18fet, so I think I need something bigger.

Can anyone recommend a controller that would work, the Lyen 24fet looks promising, also Kelly controllers, but they have many different versions and I'm not sure which would be suitable.

If you need more information about Kelly controllers, ask to Fany (sales@kellycontroller.com) . She recomended me KEB72101 (72V 100A) but Im thinking in KBL09251 (96V 250A) for 6kw proud-eagle motor.

Regards

Rodrigo
Viña del Mar
Chile

[ctirad]

I have road tested the bike with my ecrazyman 18fet contoller. motor was cogging at slow spped, it smoothed out as I sped up to 20mph, but there was an occasional bump like the motor was missing a beat.
It was drawing 5kw as I climbed a hill , the controller became quite hot and then fets must have blown.

The stock 18fet ecrazyman is rated about 2kW, AFAIC. No surprise it blew. 18fet Lyen is a different beast. I would not afraid to use it.
The best would be some sine wave controller like sevcon or Lebowski controller with a suitable power stage.
BTW, vmoto offers upgrade kit for old e-max 90/110. It consists of sevcon controller and the needed cables. It is actually not cheap, however on the other side it is not much more expensive than some higher spec Kelly controller.

[yokneamcity]

Hi Flexy!
Great job!!!
Your experience is very valuable.
I ordered from Lyen 18 Mosfet Infineon controller Lyen Edition and cycle analist. I hope receive it in the next week.
When asked about his power, Lyen said: "I would 6500 to 6800 watts the most."
My battery has a configuration 16s/3p lithium phosphate cells 20 a / h. The first way is to raise the voltage-change configuration on 24s/2p. But then I have to open the battery and solder it. still need another BMS. Configure the charger to the correct voltage. (It's easy. Potentiometer voltage changes)
But there is another way.
I want to increase the voltage with a dc/dc converter,with the modules in the photo.
According to the scheme in the photo.
I took this scheme from the Russian forum. It works.
To activate the regeneration, it is necessary to disconnect modules.
Therefore, the circuit have a Mosfet and a button to brake.
Contact "active" activates the modules.
Turbo button normally closed, to turn off turbo mode.

[flexy]

I have road tested the bike with my ecrazyman 18fet contoller. motor was cogging at slow spped, it smoothed out as I sped up to 20mph, but there was an occasional bump like the motor was missing a beat.
It was drawing 5kw as I climbed a hill , the controller became quite hot and then fets must have blown.

The stock 18fet ecrazyman is rated about 2kW, AFAIC. No surprise it blew. 18fet Lyen is a different beast. I would not afraid to use it.
The best would be some sine wave controller like sevcon or Lebowski controller with a suitable power stage.
BTW, vmoto offers upgrade kit for old e-max 90/110. It consists of sevcon controller and the needed cables. It is actually not cheap, however on the other side it is not much more expensive than some higher spec Kelly controller.

Hi Ctirad,

The ecrazyman controller I have has the IRFB4110 fets, reinforced traces and a modified shunt, it regularly pulls 5 - 7KW when climbing steep hills on my smaller scooter, Is there any other reason why the Lyen could handle more power than this?

Do you know what the rating of that upgraded sevcon for the E-max ,is it 48V or 72V?

[flexy]

Hi Flexy!
Great job!!!
Your experience is very valuable.
I ordered from Lyen 18 Mosfet Infineon controller Lyen Edition and cycle analist. I hope receive it in the next week.
When asked about his power, Lyen said: "I would 6500 to 6800 watts the most."
My battery has a configuration 16s/3p lithium phosphate cells 20 a / h. The first way is to raise the voltage-change configuration on 24s/2p. But then I have to open the battery and solder it. still need another BMS. Configure the charger to the correct voltage. (It's easy. Potentiometer voltage changes)
But there is another way.
I want to increase the voltage with a dc/dc converter,with the modules in the photo.
According to the scheme in the photo.
I took this scheme from the Russian forum. It works.
To activate the regeneration, it is necessary to disconnect modules.
Therefore, the circuit have a Mosfet and a button to brake.
Contact "active" activates the modules.
Turbo button normally closed, to turn off turbo mode.

Hi Yokneamcity, It has taken many hours for me to get this far.

That system you show is an interesting solution and simple! It seems to put the output of the DC\DC in series with your battery pack to give ~76V but How much current can it put out, is it limited by the 16A rating of the DC/DC?

[yokneamcity]

Hi Flexy!
Great job!!!
Your experience is very valuable.
I ordered from Lyen 18 Mosfet Infineon controller Lyen Edition and cycle analist. I hope receive it in the next week.
When asked about his power, Lyen said: "I would 6500 to 6800 watts the most."
My battery has a configuration 16s/3p lithium phosphate cells 20 a / h. The first way is to raise the voltage-change configuration on 24s/2p. But then I have to open the battery and solder it. still need another BMS. Configure the charger to the correct voltage. (It's easy. Potentiometer voltage changes)
But there is another way.
I want to increase the voltage with a dc/dc converter,with the modules in the photo.
According to the scheme in the photo.
I took this scheme from the Russian forum. It works.
To activate the regeneration, it is necessary to disconnect modules.
Therefore, the circuit have a Mosfet and a button to brake.
Contact "active" activates the modules.
Turbo button normally closed, to turn off turbo mode.

Hi Yokneamcity, It has taken many hours for me to get this far.

That system you show is an interesting solution and simple! It seems to put the output of the DC\DC in series with your battery pack to give ~76V but How much current can it put out, is it limited by the 16A rating of the DC/DC?

I plan to connect the 4 modules in parallel.
I ordered it here http://www.yoybuy.com/en/Show/14257000747

[ctirad]

The ecrazyman controller I have has the IRFB4110 fets, reinforced traces and a modified shunt, it regularly pulls 5 - 7KW when climbing steep hills on my smaller scooter Is there any other reason why the Lyen could handle more power than this?

I see. Then the controllers should be about the same.

Do you know what the rating of that upgraded sevcon for the E-max ,is it 48V or 72V?

Good question. I have no idea, though. I only know that it can be easily programmed to speeds up tp 70km/h with the original 48V voltage.

[yokneamcity]

The ecrazyman controller I have has the IRFB4110 fets, reinforced traces and a modified shunt, it regularly pulls 5 - 7KW when climbing steep hills on my smaller scooter Is there any other reason why the Lyen could handle more power than this?

I see. Then the controllers should be about the same.

Do you know what the rating of that upgraded sevcon for the E-max ,is it 48V or 72V?

Good question. I have no idea, though. I only know that it can be easily programmed to speeds up tp 70km/h with the original 48V voltage.

How does it work?
The speed depends on the voltage.