over-priced e-bikes survery-time

[emaayan]

hi... can ya'll tell me why would anyone blow 10000$ on a freeride bicycle with a hub motor? http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/stealth.html

i especially like how they place right under the price tag "quantity" field where you can actually type numbers, like "i'll have 2 with some milkshake..."

[veloman]

Rich people will pay 10k for an 80lb 40mph silent, near maintance free ride that is consumer ready.
There's no competition.

Pro level pedal bikes already fetch 5-10k.

What's the problem?

[Chalo]

Lack of imagination?

[Jason27]

I wouldnt even say rich people buy these bikes. Rich people would probably rather buy something for offroading that uses gas for better range. I have noticed any companies with ebikes prices over $2k+ usually dont survive. There is just no market for these high priced bikes with the economy in the crapper. Ultramotor put out a beautiful a2b bike but didnt as sell well as they hoped, same with tidal force etc. Optibike is another story. They sell only a handful of bikes but seem to be staying afloat, or their burining capital very slowly. Who knows..

Right now Prodeco seems to get the picture that an ebike priced at $1200 WILL sell. They only downside to that is im sure their profit margin is small and might not cover all their costs. We'll see.

[Lock]

Right now Prodeco seems to get the picture that an ebike priced at $1200 WILL sell. They only downside to that is im sure their profit margin is small and might not cover all their costs. We'll see.

http://www.bike-eu.com/news/dutch-bike-market-declines-but-e-bike-sales-keeps-growing-5600.html

Dutch Bike Market Declines but E-Bike Sales Keeps Growing
Wednesday, February 01, 2012
SNIP
The average retail price for a new bike (total market; including sales at department stores) increased from € 728 in 2010 to € 745 in 2011. The average retail price of a bike sold at IBDs was much higher: € 960.

€ 745 - € 960... Currently about $938 - $1208US

Lets hope the entire Dutch ebike industry isn't losing money...


Lock

[TylerDurden]

Like beauty, value is in the eye of the beholder (or buyer).

[MadRhino]

A good freeride bike is priced 3 to 5 K, asking a few K extra for a motorized version is not that much.

For someone who can't build better by himself, of course.

[kfong]

It's really depends on what you are into. Look at the money people spend on skies and ski trips or whatever sport they have a passion for. The high end ebikes are really more suited to the sport market. Performance and handling sold at a premium. I would buy one if I couldn't make my own. Until you have ridden a high end mountain bike, you can't really appreciate the technology that goes into such a bike. Luckily I've been happy with the stuff I've built and have been able to buy a high end DH bike for my next ebike conversion.

I can see how you would be turned off if you only see these as commuter bikes

[dogman]

Got that right, if you are into it enough, you spend what it takes. $1400 to go to pay the last bill for ten years of flying hot air balloons. We spent about 80,000 on it. Was worth every penny. Skiing took at least another $30,000 back when a lift ticket was only 20 bucks. Worth every penny.

[cal3thousand]

Tell you what, if I end up with a large windfall (lottery) I'd buy dozen for my family to come visit and mash around.

[Stealth_Bombering]

If you go to the "E-Bike Photos & Video" section of the forum and list by most views you will see #3 on the list is "E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners" so there are a lot of people interested in these bikes.

The main reason I ordered one is because I work a lot of hours and don't have the time to build any more ebikes. I was looking for a bullet proof bike that I can rely on and ride when I have some free time. In California dirt bikes are only allowed in certain areas which is normally hours away so having one of these I can cruise through the mountain trails without anybody hassling me. I was actually seriously considering a Zero X motorcycle which costs the same, but with the stealth bomber I can go any place a bicycle can go. All I need is my stealth bomber, an ENO hammock and I am one happy dude! Oh, and a spare $10k that I can spend on an electric bike doesn't hurt either

If you want to find out more or see some cool videos you can check out this section of the forum viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23996&start=1800&hilit=stealth

[dogman]

Compared to a boat on the lake, a stock or drag car to compete localy, any aircraft, skiing, base jumping, dirt bikes and travel to legal riding, diving, or car customizing, a bomber is a cheap hobby.

But building your own version of a bomber, if you have the time, is cheaper. But not by much, if you truly match the components. Even my pos imitation of a stealth fighter cost more than a thou. Bike alone to imitate the bomber would likely be three thou.

[Chalo]

Bike alone to imitate the bomber would likely be three thou.

It would also be a downhill racing mountain bike, and not the right tool for the job unless you're racing downhill off-road. Sporting street motorcycles don't have big mushy long travel suspension, and neither do sporting street cars. The efficient and practical versions of street motorcycles and cars don't have big mushy long-travel suspension, either. When performance and efficiency count, even racing mountain bikes don't use 6"+ suspension-- that's only for gravity-powered bikes where efficiency is secondary to soaking up big impacts and drops.

Long travel suspension just wallows around and wastes energy. It makes the bike ride too high when you're getting on and off, and too low when you're dealing with bumps and corners. And it results in all kinds of unintended handling qualities when braking or accelerating, because the whole bike tilts to and fro. It's just not a good way to conserve our precious watts, whether they come from muscles or batteries. And it's a needless waste of dollars besides.

Chalo

[dogman]

True enough. That's why I tend to point people who won't be dirt riding to cross country type frames. They aren't set up so tall, and travel is not 6-8 inches. But even on street, 3 inches of travel is nice.

Have to disagree completely about mushy though. That's entirely a choice of the rider. The high end shocks are completely tunable. So if it's mushy that's your fault. I definitely stiffen up for street.

[mdd0127]

Bike alone to imitate the bomber would likely be three thou.

It would also be a downhill racing mountain bike, and not the right tool for the job unless you're racing downhill off-road. Sporting street motorcycles don't have big mushy long travel suspension, and neither do sporting street cars. The efficient and practical versions of street motorcycles and cars don't have big mushy long-travel suspension, either. When performance and efficiency count, even racing mountain bikes don't use 6"+ suspension-- that's only for gravity-powered bikes where efficiency is secondary to soaking up big impacts and drops.

Long travel suspension just wallows around and wastes energy. It makes the bike ride too high when you're getting on and off, and too low when you're dealing with bumps and corners. And it results in all kinds of unintended handling qualities when braking or accelerating, because the whole bike tilts to and fro. It's just not a good way to conserve our precious watts, whether they come from muscles or batteries. And it's a needless waste of dollars besides.

Chalo

While I agree with everything you said, I also believe that there are some pretty good reasons to release more bikes with more than adequate suspension and strength.

It's really simple. If something can go fast, and looks like it could handle some off road situations, people are going to jump it. It's human nature. Once the proper bikes are available on a mass scale, I see a few new sports emerging. One would be uphill downhill style racing, and another will be urban trials style stuff. While these sports aren't that important in getting people to work, they will produce a ton of attention for electric alternatives and get a lot of people to buy bikes. This will drive the cost down and also let investors know that there is a market to get behind, causing it to be much easier to get funding to develop bikes that are better suited to the uses that they'll be used most for. Once the public falls in love with e-bikes because they've seen what they can do at their extremes, they will be more likely to look into and spend money on super efficient commuters.

[dogman]

Different strokes for different folks. If you are a long time road bike pedaler, chances are suspension bikes will feel very wierd to you forever.

If you come from dirt motorcycles, you'll simply love it that you have great long travel suspension in a flyweight motorcycle class ebike.

Others will fall in love with hardtails, cruisers, choppers, etc.

No one kind of bike is best for everybody or every ride, that's how my stable came to include a Full Suspension commuter built on a xc frame, a dirt trail rider, a street racer, an enduro, a beach cruiser, a ready made bb drive Think, and a longtail cargo bike.

[cal3thousand]

I find myself wanting to build a ride with more suspension travel. Efficiency is cool if you are trying to travel as far as possible with as little gear as possible. But then, we'd all be riding road bikes with skinny frames and up-your-butt seats.

I have a "hybrid" with a suspension seat and small front POS shock. And although it eats up enough bumps for careful street riding, It's pretty tough on the worst sections. I have to slow down for speed bumps and that crap. I would love to have some more suspension and be able to hop those damn things like I would on a pedal bike.

Too bad there isn't a single bike that can do it all. But for whatever your style and pocketbook, there's options. And options are nice

[dogman]

The lesser priced than full on DH bikes would do what you want. My commuter has pure street tires, but the frame is a giant with about 4" of travel. It will breeze over speed bumps, heat cracks etc no problem. Curb jumps could still bend a rim, but they can be done carefully without bending a rim. It's a tall bike, but it can also pedal around a corner without pedal strike.

The main thing that really won't compromise so good is tires. My "enduro" bike is ok only for moderate trails and dirt roads. It could do anything with full knobbies, but it's really just a street bike with the tires I put on it.

[kfong]

Three - four inches of travel would be minimum for me. The two inch polymer shock I replaced left me with sore wrists after long rides. The streets are never ideal here, and I get less rim damage with good suspensions when going over curbs. I would go for comfort over efficiency, just carry more capacity.

[motomech]

Swearing off gasoline comes with some sacrafices.
I knew coming into this[or shortly thereafer]that I wasn't going to have an electric powered off-roader that I could ride with abandoment like my last KTM. Just not going to invest the time and money to go there. But I would like to "plink" around and probably at my age and shape , that is a good idea.
Not being a mountain biker, I am somewhat amazed at the prices of the "latest and greatest" hardware, it doesn't seem like you are getting that much for the money, like bikinis and poodles when you give them a bath. "Where's the beef?"
But just like with Motorcycles, I don't need the "latest and ...". I mean, really how many riders can use that last few %. In the decades I road and raced motorcycles, I can count the really fast guys, like at National level, on my fingers. The sad fact is, If 99% of the riders swapped their 5 year old Honda with a pro riders bike, they still would get smoked.
So used is fine, I only need "latest" enough to be fun and reliable. I am thinking it's going to have to have a little more tehnology than my 2003 Rocky Mountain can provide, but not much.
I love my Ebike, but in some sense, I made a sacrafices to ride it. For many years I was into hopped-up 50cc 2-cycle scooters. They were cheap, fast and reliable. Really, too much fun! And there was a sense of putting one over on the authorities by not having to registrar or insure it.
I just choose to not be loud, smelly and obnoxious anymore...well, at least not my transportation.

[Chalo]

Three - four inches of travel would be minimum for me. The two inch polymer shock I replaced left me with sore wrists after long rides. The streets are never ideal here, and I get less rim damage with good suspensions when going over curbs. I would go for comfort over efficiency, just carry more capacity.

Rim damage or the lack thereof is a matter of keeping enough pressure in the tires, and using fat enough tires for conditions.

The bike I've been riding for the last few days has a suspension fork I reworked for the street. It was an early generation air/hydraulic MTB fork with about 48-50mm of travel. I made longer bushings for it to shorten the travel, I put in thicker oil and more air pressure, and I made a deeper crown and different brake mounts for a 700c wheel. Now it has about 35mm of travel, but with my 325 pounds on it, it never bottoms out. It doesn't bob when sprinting or climbing while seated, either. But it does take the sting out of road defects.



Consider that passenger cars designed for 100mph and more usually have about 4 inches of travel. I think if you "need" that much at 30mph, your need is probably imagined. Or you should ride on streets instead of staircases.

If you value comfort over efficiency, cars are the easy choice-- with air conditioning, luxurious seating, cup holders, and everything a sluggard could desire. Better make it an SUV; they have more suspension travel.

Chalo

[mdd0127]

Staircases are fun.

[cal3thousand]

Three - four inches of travel would be minimum for me. The two inch polymer shock I replaced left me with sore wrists after long rides. The streets are never ideal here, and I get less rim damage with good suspensions when going over curbs. I would go for comfort over efficiency, just carry more capacity.

Rim damage or the lack thereof is a matter of keeping enough pressure in the tires, and using fat enough tires for conditions.

The bike I've been riding for the last few days has a suspension fork I reworked for the street. It was an early generation air/hydraulic MTB fork with about 48-50mm of travel. I made longer bushings for it to shorten the travel, I put in thicker oil and more air pressure, and I made a deeper crown and different brake mounts for a 700c wheel. Now it has about 35mm of travel, but with my 325 pounds on it, it never bottoms out. It doesn't bob when sprinting or climbing while seated, either. But it does take the sting out of road defects.



Consider that passenger cars designed for 100mph and more usually have about 4 inches of travel. I think if you "need" that much at 30mph, your need is probably imagined. Or you should ride on streets instead of staircases.

If you value comfort over efficiency, cars are the easy choice-- with air conditioning, luxurious seating, cup holders, and everything a sluggard could desire. Better make it an SUV; they have more suspension travel.

Chalo

I see your point that DH bikes are quite overkill. But are you taking that cannondale off of curbs for fun? Probably not.

I would like to ride an electric bike much the way I used to ride BMX bikes on the street. Off the curbs, jumping speed bumps, down stairs, (up stair would be nice too).

I'm not trying to prevent rim damage with suspension, because as you said, proper tire selection and set up are necessary; I'm trying to prevent discomfort on my special bits.

[Kurt]

Three - four inches of travel would be minimum for me. The two inch polymer shock I replaced left me with sore wrists after long rides. The streets are never ideal here, and I get less rim damage with good suspensions when going over curbs. I would go for comfort over efficiency, just carry more capacity.

Rim damage or the lack thereof is a matter of keeping enough pressure in the tires, and using fat enough tires for conditions.

The bike I've been riding for the last few days has a suspension fork I reworked for the street. It was an early generation air/hydraulic MTB fork with about 48-50mm of travel. I made longer bushings for it to shorten the travel, I put in thicker oil and more air pressure, and I made a deeper crown and different brake mounts for a 700c wheel. Now it has about 35mm of travel, but with my 325 pounds on it, it never bottoms out. It doesn't bob when sprinting or climbing while seated, either. But it does take the sting out of road defects.



Consider that passenger cars designed for 100mph and more usually have about 4 inches of travel. I think if you "need" that much at 30mph, your need is probably imagined. Or you should ride on streets instead of staircases.

If you value comfort over efficiency, cars are the easy choice-- with air conditioning, luxurious seating, cup holders, and everything a sluggard could desire. Better make it an SUV; they have more suspension travel.

Chalo

First off nice work on the custom front suspension .

Its a hard to compare a car with a ebike.I would say most family cars have a lot more than 3" of total suspension travel (especially when you measure the full length of travel from unloaded to fully compressed) In a car You also sit on a big seat that is more like a lounge chair with springs and foam to absorb shock that the suspention doesn't soak up.(try taking the seat out of your car and sit on a wooden box) You also don't have to balance your body in the car while driving. The shear weight/bulk of the car absorbs energy and the chassis flexes unlike a stiff ebike frame. The average car wheel is a lot softer and higher profile than a bike to.

For example if you were to weld you bike frame to the back of a utility truck and sit on the bike while your friend drove the truck at 100mph down a bumpy road . I am sure you on the bike would have a hard time staying on and the guy in the cab would be fine.

In a car you have a hydrological powered steering rack and a large steering wheel for you to hold onto. Both help you overcome the shock of hitting a pot hole. Your bike has direct mechanical steering.

Personalty I feel its dangerous driving a fast ebike (45mph +) without good suspension. I ride a recumbent trike with no suspension and its fine for 30mph on nice roads but I have a some very dangerous moments when coasting down large hills at 45mph and unexpectedly hit a rough patch in the road and the trike has become very very unsettled (real heart in your mouth moment). So for me suspension is safety and comfort.

Kurt

[kfong]

The body dynamics in a car and on bike are very different. A motorcycle would be a better comparison, but even that can't really relate since the tires are steel belted and surface area is much larger. A motorcycle already is a much softer ride.

I'm use to trail riding and when on the streets I want the same performance and buttery smooth suspension. I don't like slowing down too much for curbs and treat them like I treat logs. Unfortunately I'm often going much faster than on the trials. My full suspension bikes rims fare much better than my utility bike without rear suspension. The rim on the utility has some nice dents to it from hitting the curb too hard. I usually run at 40psi, any harder gets too bouncy for trail use. I think it's more a personal preference. Just like I would never own a ten speed style road bike, not my form of riding. Finding occasional jumps is.

Try out a dh bike, it gives you a whole new appreciation for bike suspension. You can tune them to be more street capable with a stiffer ride and less travel. Unfortunately cost of these types of suspension are rather high. This to me is more like a motorcycle feel.