Honda electric car gets 118 mpg, but costs add up

[o00scorpion00o]

I've looked but haven't found this info, so maybe one of the Prius owners can help: If you sit on an open road at ~80mph, what fuel economy does the prius return?

AFAIK, the motor system in a situation like this is simply dead weight.

The closest I could find are the US "highway" figures, which are 41-45-48mpg (gen 1-3).

Possibly also worth noting that the Prius doesn't use an otto-cycle engine - which goes some way to explain its efficiency and relatively poor power output for its displacement.

I just get the impression that they would have liked to build a pure EV, or a "proper" hybrid, where the engine simply drives a generator. As I said before though, I understand that everyone was massively hampered by the restrictions in available batteries.

I'm not sure it's realistic to compare the prius to a hummer, the hummer is far from an average or common car. How do you figure the emissions for the hummer? If CO2 it should be proportional to the fuel consumed. If NOx, SO2 etc, then fair enough.

The hybrid system works at all speeds and applies power whenever it needs to. Driving with cruise on a motorway trip at 140 kph I can easily get 5.1 L/100kms, or 55 imp mpg or 45.79 us mpg.

By the time I get through town or to my destination that always drops to 4.2-4.5. Something no Diesel I've ever driven of similar size could match.

Most of my commute involves a mixture of speeds from 80 kph to 120 kph.

So far over 165 kms on this tank of petrol I'm averaging 4.2L/100kms

Again, the prius is not a normal car and those figures take a bit of practice, so you can't drive it like a normal car, there is far more driver involvement!

[Punx0r]

Driver technique does make a huge difference. Plucking one example from the air, a VW Passat TDI recently did 1600 miles and averaged 84 USMPG (101mpg imp).

[o00scorpion00o]

Driver technique does make a huge difference. Plucking one example from the air, a VW Passat TDI recently did 1600 miles and averaged 84 USMPG (101mpg imp).

I would like to know how thaat was achieved, I've driven diesels for 400,000+ miles and never came close to anything like that, I also had a 2002 Passat TDI 130 hp manual.

[mdd0127]

Driver technique does make a huge difference. Plucking one example from the air, a VW Passat TDI recently did 1600 miles and averaged 84 USMPG (101mpg imp).

I would like to know how thaat was achieved, I've driven diesels for 400,000+ miles and never came close to anything like that, I also had a 2002 Passat TDI 130 hp manual.

Search the term "hypermiling"
I was able to get 28mpg over 1200 miles from a fully loaded 4x4 toyota pickup that normally averaged 15mpg using hypermiling techniques.
My 1977 318 V8 powered Dodge motorhome is getting 20mpg only using a few hypermiling techniques.
I've also achieved 28mpg in a full size ford 4x4 pickup with a powerstroke diesel, pulling a trailer loaded with enough glass to build a home. I was following a friend in an identical truck, except his was not loaded and not pulling a trailer and he got 14mpg on the same trip. We left together and arrived at the destination at the same time.

[o00scorpion00o]

Driver technique does make a huge difference. Plucking one example from the air, a VW Passat TDI recently did 1600 miles and averaged 84 USMPG (101mpg imp).

I would like to know how thaat was achieved, I've driven diesels for 400,000+ miles and never came close to anything like that, I also had a 2002 Passat TDI 130 hp manual.

Search the term "hypermiling"
I was able to get 28mpg over 1200 miles from a fully loaded 4x4 toyota pickup that normally averaged 15mpg using hypermiling techniques.
My 1977 318 V8 powered Dodge motorhome is getting 20mpg only using a few hypermiling techniques.
I've also achieved 28mpg in a full size ford 4x4 pickup with a powerstroke diesel, pulling a trailer loaded with enough glass to build a home. I was following a friend in an identical truck, except his was not loaded and not pulling a trailer and he got 14mpg on the same trip. We left together and arrived at the destination at the same time.

I know about hypermiling, I guess I hypermile some, but I don't have to think about it too much now that I'm used to the Prius. I could never get that in the Passat, or A4 TDI and I drive in a similar way to the Prius. Even driving my Sisters 308 90 hp HDI the best I can get is 58 mpg in the Peugeot.

The hybrid really is good at reducing fuel consumption!

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Driver technique does make a huge difference. Plucking one example from the air, a VW Passat TDI recently did 1600 miles and averaged 84 USMPG (101mpg imp).

I would like to know how that was achieved, I've driven diesels for 400,000+ miles and never came close to anything like that, I also had a 2002 Passat TDI 130 hp manual.

Here you are:
http://www.vehix.com/blog/news/volkswagen-passat-tdi-covers-1626-miles-on-one-tank-of-gas
Related info here:
http://www.vehix.com/blog/most-popular/fuel-efficient/vw-tdi-drives-1531-miles-on-one-tank
And here:

[Hillhater]

Its dumb to compare "world record" mileage results to everyday driving use!
most owners of those TDI Passats would be lucky to get 40 mpg in normal use, whilst most prius owners will better that without even trying.
The Prius was never intended as a high speed interstate cruiser ( ideal use for the TDI though !) , but it (Prius) is in its element in urban /sub-urban use, which is where 90% of owners are..
I see that "Non -hybrid" version of the Prius that was mentioned ....

The Prius V6 will use the 3.5 liter 268 horsepower engine from the Toyota Camry. In place of the HYBRID badge, the Prius V6 will get a HY6RID badge -- which, according to Toyota, stands for "High-performance 6-cylinder Racing Inspired Design."

EPA fuel economy estimates for the Prius V6 will be 17 MPG city/25 MPG highway, compared to 48 city/45 highway for the Prius hybrid.
About.com GuideApril 1, 2008

[Toshi]

Its dumb to compare "world record" mileage results to everyday driving use!
most owners of those TDI Passats would be lucky to get 40 mpg in normal use, whilst most prius owners will better that without even trying.
The Prius was never intended as a high speed interstate cruiser ( ideal use for the TDI though !) , but it (Prius) is in its element in urban /sub-urban use, which is where 90% of owners are..
I see that "Non -hybrid" version of the Prius that was mentioned ....

The Prius V6 will use the 3.5 liter 268 horsepower engine from the Toyota Camry. In place of the HYBRID badge, the Prius V6 will get a HY6RID badge -- which, according to Toyota, stands for "High-performance 6-cylinder Racing Inspired Design."

EPA fuel economy estimates for the Prius V6 will be 17 MPG city/25 MPG highway, compared to 48 city/45 highway for the Prius hybrid.
About.com GuideApril 1, 2008

I hope you, and the earlier poster who brought up the "non-hybrid Prius" rumor, know what April 1st signifies...

[Hillhater]

[neptronix]

I've looked but haven't found this info, so maybe one of the Prius owners can help: If you sit on an open road at ~80mph, what fuel economy does the prius return?

Ah yes, the 'versus a Porsche' argument. OK, i'll take this one on.
Is that a normal usage scenario at all? can you point me to any highway in the United States that has an 80mph speed limit?

What if you do continuous stop and go in traffic.. or hit a couple dozen stop signs / lights on your way to work - how well do you think that a non-hybrid car would do in comparison to one that can regenerate all the braking energy & then use it to push you away from the stop sign?

Possibly also worth noting that the Prius doesn't use an otto-cycle engine - which goes some way to explain its efficiency and relatively poor power output for its displacement.

Yep, it's a tradeoff. The Atkinson cycle engine is one of the most efficient designs that's ever made it to the production. Why does it's power output matter when the electric motor makes up for it, tho?

I just get the impression that they would have liked to build a pure EV, or a "proper" hybrid, where the engine simply drives a generator. As I said before though, I understand that everyone was massively hampered by the restrictions in available batteries.

That is not what they would have liked to build, as evidenced by their design. A gas engine that drives a generator ultimately loses efficiency for the pure sake of putting electric power to the wheels - what's the point of that? A pure gasoline car will always be more efficient. When you take the power output of an internal combustion, turn it into electric energy, then charge the battery, then take that energy and turn it back into mechanical energy.. you are taking little 5-10% hits at every stage.

What you are describing is how the Fisker Karma operates and the results are extremely poor.. it averages 20mpg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma#Specifications

I'm not sure it's realistic to compare the prius to a hummer, the hummer is far from an average or common car. How do you figure the emissions for the hummer? If CO2 it should be proportional to the fuel consumed. If NOx, SO2 etc, then fair enough.

The Prius is far from average as well.

Co2 is proportional to the fuel consumed... so ok - go look at what the hummer H3 gets vs the Prius..

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=23599&id=23410

46mpg vs 15mpg average. But another thing to mention is that the hummer has a very primitive engine, and it idles unlike the Prius. I couldn't find any emissions numbers on the net, but i am sure the Hummer is going to put out more than 3 times the bad stuff.

[Punx0r]

It can't be that bad - it presumably passes the stringent Californian emissions requirements. I think we've reached a point where a modern petrol effectively outputs only CO2 and water. Diesel engine on the other hand...

That Fisher Karma is an interesting (and impressive) car. Let's not forget it's a sports car... A 2400kg car powered by a 260HP petrol engine is not going to be efficient. Now, if it had the aero and weight of a prius and a ~30HP diesel engine, you'd have an eco-car. This is my personal speculation, though.

The power output of the Prius engine was really just an observation. ~75HP from 1.5 litres isn't much. 75HP in a 1300Kg car isn't much.

I don't know why you equate cruising at ~80mph to Porsche performance I'm sure there isn't a 80mph limit road in the U.S. but I recall driving on plenty with 75mph limits. IME, normal, average traffic speed is about 80mph. For those of us that don't live in the middle of a sprawling city, this is a daily occurrence (if not in a hurry). If you need to travel a distance 50+ miles) you don't cruise at 60mph, you sit at 80 or 90. In such case (IME) a 20 year old 2.0 diesel will return at least 50mpg. More modern (common rail era) family saloons will push 70mpg.

Hell, a couple of years ago I had a brand new Ford fiesta hire car a few years ago. 1.4 petrol, absolutely, thrashed it ~200 miles to London and back (took the back roads, sat at 5000rpm, city driving, racing other cars) and it averaged a smidge over 50mpg. I was impressed.

What if you do continuous stop and go in traffic.. or hit a couple dozen stop signs / lights on your way to work - how well do you think that a non-hybrid car would do in comparison to one that can regenerate all the braking energy & then use it to push you away from the stop sign?

Honestly? Find another route or another method of traveling. I know of the existence of one stop sign, more must exist, but they are not common here.

I acknowledged early on that stop-go city driving played to the Prius's strengths.

Anyway, back to the original point I tried to make: Toyota has sold 2.5 million Prius's, mostly based on eco-credentials, not by trying to prove it's cheaper to run than an ICE car. IMHO, it's a failing in marketing if Honda only focus on comparing expected running costs.

Ant

[TylerDurden]

If you need to travel a distance 50+ miles) you don't cruise at 60mph, you sit at 80 or 90. In such case (IME) a 20 year old 2.0 diesel will return at least 50mpg. More modern (common rail era) family saloons will push 70mpg.

I regularly drive between 60-65mph. Going that speed is the simple way to increase efficiency. That garners 50mpg (U.S.). Around-town driving (<40mph) gets ~44mpg.

The '89 1.6l non-turbo Jetta diesel is stock body, stock engine with no mods and >289,000mi on the odometer. With a more recent body shape and engine tuning, I can imagine 55mpg. Put that engine in a 1st gen Prius or Insight type shell and 60mpg is a realistic speculation.

[Punx0r]

True, but when you need to drive 300, 400, 500 miles you start making significant time savings by modest increases in average speed. If you're traveling for business then possibly time = money, so a shorter journey offsets the increased fuel cost.

That said, ICE's can be peculiar things. I've found little difference in fuel consumption in my car between cruising at 70 and 90mph. The body has a decent CoD and the higher speed permits a little turbo boost, raising the dynamic compression ratio and raising efficiency (according to conventional wisdom).

I fear we digress, though

[neptronix]

It can't be that bad - it presumably passes the stringent Californian emissions requirements. I think we've reached a point where a modern petrol effectively outputs only CO2 and water. Diesel engine on the other hand...

You'd be amazed at what passed by "stringent" California emissions requirements, circa 2007.
If you think co2 and water is the only thing that comes out of the most modern gas engines, i guess you don't live in California or some other state where they give you a printout of your hydrocarbon, NOX, CO, and CO2 readouts. In a modern smog check, they are basically seeing if your catalytic converter works or not, not how many catalyzed ( less harmful ) gases your vehicle is putting out.

That Fisher Karma is an interesting (and impressive) car. Let's not forget it's a sports car... A 2400kg car powered by a 260HP petrol engine is not going to be efficient. Now, if it had the aero and weight of a prius and a ~30HP diesel engine, you'd have an eco-car. This is my personal speculation, though.

Go read some reviews about it's performance, it's actually rather slow. Technically it looks like a sports car but the only place it really excels in sportyness is braking. It's not fast or efficient. It's the plug in hybrid version of a hummer, coming close enough to the weight of a hummer and coming within the MPG of a hummer that it would legally qualify as a gas guzzler if it wasn't for the battery. Instead, it gets a tax credit! what the !!!!

The power output of the Prius engine was really just an observation. ~75HP from 1.5 litres isn't much. 75HP in a 1300Kg car isn't much.

You're not adding the electric motor into the equation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW20)

Gasoline: 1.5 L 1NZ-FXE DOHC I4 VVT-i
57 kW (76 hp) @ 5000 rpm
115 N·m (85 lb·ft) @ 4200 rpm
Electric: 500 V
50 kW (67 hp) @ 1200 rpm
400 N·m (295 lb·ft) @ 0 rpm
AT-PZEV
Hybrid system net horsepower: 110 hp (82 kW)

Nice low end grunt!

I don't know why you equate cruising at ~80mph to Porsche performance I'm sure there isn't a 80mph limit road in the U.S. but I recall driving on plenty with 75mph limits. IME, normal, average traffic speed is about 80mph. For those of us that don't live in the middle of a sprawling city, this is a daily occurrence (if not in a hurry). If you need to travel a distance 50+ miles) you don't cruise at 60mph, you sit at 80 or 90. In such case (IME) a 20 year old 2.0 diesel will return at least 50mpg. More modern (common rail era) family saloons will push 70mpg.

Sorry, i thought you were going to bust out the Porsche argument. I heard it coming and overcorrected

OK.. you want to compare diesel cars to priuses - you're in Europe right? See, out here we don't get your tiny diesel cars so we have nothing to compare to. We can either buy a 30mpg average ( or far less ) gas car or a 50mpg average prius.

Given that diesel is more expensive than gasoline here, and diesel cars are notably more expensive than gas cars, the Prius makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, back to the original point I tried to make: Toyota has sold 2.5 million Prius's, mostly based on eco-credentials, not by trying to prove it's cheaper to run than an ICE car. IMHO, it's a failing in marketing if Honda only focus on comparing expected running costs.

See above. It wasn't until the last few years that anything non-hybrid other than some expensive VW diesel cars could achieve anything higher than 40mpg here on the USA market. The Prius has been the fuel economy champion by a long shot over here for about a decade. It still has better economy than anything else you can buy here, on the highway, and definitely in the city.

[TylerDurden]

>50mpg VW diesels have been in the US since 1978.



A new TDI Jetta stickers ~$16,000-$22,000.



[/VW]

Most folks are daily commuters with occasional long excursions. They could see savings in a FIT EV, if they rented an ICE car for the excursions.

My colleague sold his second-car (family of four) and rents on the occasions they need two vehicles (approx. 2x / mo.). The money he spends on rentals is less than his cost of insurance on a second car.


A FIT EV will likely break even $$ with the ICE version in 6yrs, and not a drop of gas. NO GAS. What a fitting F.U. to BP, Exxon, Shell, Saudi Arabia, Iran, et.al.

[texaspyro]

That Fisher Karma is an interesting (and impressive) car.

It supposedly gets really interesting when the computer goes down or re-boots... you lose the brakes. Talk about a blue screen of death

[Hillhater]

.It supposedly gets really interesting when the computer goes down or re-boots... you lose the brakes. Talk about a blue screen of death

Its not uncommon in modern ICE cars ,if the motor cuts out, or the aux drive belt breaks, the brakes (and steering !) both fail to work due to the lack of power assist.
It can be interesting if you are motoring at speed in traffic when it happens !
Ask me how i know..

[Punx0r]

At least they still work, you just have to push/heave a bit

I'm guessing the Karman has electrically activated brakes? I just don't like the sound of something with no fail safe...

Neptronix, I think we've reached the source of our differing opinions. With the influx of foreign cars to the U.S. I'd assumed you'd have economical ICE cars. If the cars available do ~30mpg then it's understandable that the Prius would seem like witchcraft, and also understandable that this would be purely attributed to its hybrid system.

I'm guessing you probably also spend a lot of time defending it against people who unquestioningly regurgitate arguments and opinions from haters in the media. For the record I'm not staunchly anything - no hippy, no burn-the-rainforest type. I just evaluate things on what I perceive as technical merit.

I'd looked up the "electric only" range of the Prius some time back (users reported approx 1 mile IIRC), and I'd concluded the electric system was little more than a gimmick. Seeing that it gets better fuel economy in a city environment than on the open road (something an ICE car just doesn't do) proves it does have a real benefit in the right environment. However, in that same environment a pure EV would own it.

Just as an aside regarding emissions testing: He have a mandatory annual emissions test here for CO and hydrocarbons (and smoke for diesels). I don't mess with new cars, but our family's 15-20 year old cars often pass with 0.001% CO and <5 PPM HC. Hence my conclusion that by now a new cars emissions must effectively be only CO2 and water (helped by cleaner fuels).

Peace out
Ant

[TylerDurden]

I'd looked up the "electric only" range of the Prius some time back (users reported approx 1 mile IIRC), and I'd concluded the electric system was little more than a gimmick. Seeing that it gets better fuel economy in a city environment than on the open road (something an ICE car just doesn't do) proves it does have a real benefit in the right environment. However, in that same environment a pure EV would own it.

Since buyers are concerned with covering most bases, I think the Prius designers hit the sweet spot between ICE and EV: the stop-start related losses in traffic are reduced with the electric drive, while the highway aerodynamic losses are reduced by the low Cd.

[Hillhater]

At least they still work, you just have to push/heave a bit

You are obviously not familiar with Citroen's hydraulic systems !
And have you seen the current trend of "electronic" steering on many new cars.

...I'd looked up the "electric only" range of the Prius some time back (users reported approx 1 mile IIRC), and I'd concluded the electric system was little more than a gimmick.
Ant

Again , you haven't quite grasped the basic concept of the Prius...have you ??

[Punx0r]

Past tense

AFAIK it's a legal requirement that a car's steering have a mechanical linkage that allows it to be steered in the event of a power failure. Braking systems seem to vary a bit, with dual-circuit being a minimum, although I note examples of cars exported to the U.S. having to be fitted with the who system doubled up (master cylinder, pipes etc).

By electronic steering, do you mean electric PAS? I'm familiar with that, but otherwise it seems I'm not up to date with technology...

[Toshi]

I regularly drive between 60-65mph. Going that speed is the simple way to increase efficiency. That garners 50mpg (U.S.). Around-town driving (<40mph) gets ~44mpg.

The '89 1.6l non-turbo Jetta diesel is stock body, stock engine with no mods and >289,000mi on the odometer. With a more recent body shape and engine tuning, I can imagine 55mpg. Put that engine in a 1st gen Prius or Insight type shell and 60mpg is a realistic speculation.

Your 1989 Jetta weighs around 2300 or 2400 lbs. That's incredibly light compared to nearly all modern cars. The safety and emissions improvements implemented over the years are very worthwhile (imo) but also lead to a ton of extra weight, almost literally .

What safety measures, you ask? The Mk 2 is too old to be in the IIHS crash test database, but here's how its 2700 lb 1994-1999 successor fared, with the optional airbags, no less:





Note the disclaimer with regard to curb weight two lines up in the inlined graphic above. The net result is I'd trust myself in a car of your VW's vintage--hell, I ride a motorcycle so anything will be safer, right?--but I wouldn't let my wife daily drive one.

[Toshi]

here's how its 2700 lb 1994-1999 successor [the Mk 3 Jetta] fared, with the optional airbags, no less:

Compare to this thread's villain, the Prius. I'll pick the 2nd gen one (2004-2009) for the crash test since that's what my wife drives.





Minimal intrusion and minimal risk of injury (I like my--and my wife's--left leg, thanks). That 700 lbs of extra weight compared to the Mk 2 Jetta has gone to good use outside of the hybrid bits…

For completeness's sake, the 2011-2012 Jetta sedan also gets across the board Good ratings in the IIHS offset frontal crash test, and also weighs a hair under 3000 lbs. I'd bet that these good crash test ratings are the rule rather than the exception in modern cars, which serves to drive my point home.

[Toshi]

It can't be that bad - it presumably passes the stringent Californian emissions requirements. I think we've reached a point where a modern petrol effectively outputs only CO2 and water. Diesel engine on the other hand...

You'd be amazed at what passed by "stringent" California emissions requirements, circa 2007.

The Prius is/was a Tier 2 Bin 3 vehicle, while the Hummer H2 was a Tier 2 Bin 11 vehicle (source). What does this mean? Per the EPA:



The H2 in Bin 11 could legally put out 30x the NOx (!!), 12x the particulate matter (1), and between 3x and 5x CO, HCHO, and NMOG. Sure, all of these numbers are low in the absolute sense, but "passing emissions" doesn't mean all that much when the standards vary so wildly between the Bins.

[Toshi]

Motor Trend surprises with a thorough-ish review of the Fit EV. Some highlights:


Distinctive front end.


Ugly interior, still, as is the Honda corporate style these days. At least it has standard navi, seat heaters, and automatic climate control (for charge station-finding and heating/cooling efficiency, respectively).


The rear end is raised up so that the battery can slot underneath the car, sort of like those converted wheelchair-accessible minivans. Doesn't look too bad, though, apart from the wheels.


The rear seat is moved up and back with respect to the non-EV Fit, which makes for a very car-seat-friendly 35.2" of rear legroom!


Motor from the FCX Clarity, with fancy design such that the driveshafts run through it.

Key stats, mostly as above in this very thread:

- $389/month lease, no purchase option. On the upside, that's with no money down and included no-deductible comprehensive insurance coverage!
- 1100 production target
- Cali + Portland, OR
- 20 kWh of lithium, 6.6 kW charger, no CHAdeMO port
- 82 mile EPA range, greater than the Leaf's 73 and the Focus Electric's 76 despite their bigger packs
- 3252 lb curb weight, as compared to 2628 lbs for a non-EV Fit Sport with navi

One cool thing about the car that has not been not highlighted before is this:

What your foot feels when it presses the Fit EV's brake pedal is actually a simulation of stopping feel. Yes, a simulation. During anything short of emergency braking (when valves open for old-fashioned friction stopping via pedal-activated hydraulic lines) the Fit EV attempts to halt itself by pure regenerative resistance from the traction motor. Here and there, it's still supplemented by doses of friction braking (particularly at the end), but even that's derived from a fast-reacting electric motor that locally pressurizes the caliper's hydraulics. The key point is that this really is brake by wire, and it's computer orchestrated. And what it eliminates is the slight bit of friction drag that current EVs (Leaf) suffer during what we think of as pure regen braking. Remember that mysteriously greater driving range? Here's part of the answer.