Avitt
100 W
What is the least expensive bike which uses the Bosch OEM system? (I'm interested to know the disparity between the least and most expensive Bosch-based bikes, in order to infer how much of the cost is due to the drive system.)
Haibike crazy price
- Thread starter EVTodd
- Start date
THere is no "US" countrywide law about what ebikes can be, on-road. The only thing there is is a CPSC regulation regarding what defines an ebike for the purposes of what manufacturers should sell as an ebike.maxwell92036 said:
I didn't mean to keep up with traffic all the way up to whatever cars go; I mean to get out of their way at a light where one MUST take the center of the regular lane, becuase there is no bicycle thru-lane, and taking the right portion of the rightmost lane will result in being run over by cars turning that don't even look to see that you are there.
So since typically a bicycle (electric or not) is not going to make it thru some of the lights, it's going to end up as the very first vehicle in the line of traffic waiting to go thru when it turns green. A long time ago when I used to ride regular bikes and I could pedal hard, then on a normal bike with no cargo/etc I could out accelerate the cars from the light, getting almost across the intersection before most cars would be trying to pass me, so I would be able to be pulling over toward the right out of their way by then, without the risk of being squished by those turning right, etc. (still a problem for those turning right *onto* the street I'm actually on, from the one perpendicular to it, but nothing to be done about that). Now, I'm lucky to pedal one down and up my local short street, before I have to just stop and sit there for a while. With cargo/etc, or on my cargo bike, ain't gonna happen, much less accelerate fast enough.
Now, if I were on a trike, I wouldn'thave to worry about balance, and I could pedal at extremely slow speeds with the right gearing, but it still doesn't fix the acceleration issue, nor could I do it for very long at a time. (tested this with Delta Tripper).
20MPH is fast enough for my purposes, generally. There's times I wish I could go faster, but that's life. I don't even need or use 20MPH all the time, either; mostly that's when I'm on roads with much faster traffic passing me, cuz it pisses them off less if I'm at 20MPH than if I'm at 10 or 15MPH, and they're less likely to scream obscenities or use foul gestures, or try to run me off the road.
(typically this doesn't happen on my large cargobike CrazyBike2, but if I am riding a more bicycle-like one, like the former Fusin Test Bike, or even DayGlo Avenger, some drivers are outright dangerous to me; same with other bikes on the road).
There's a few states and localities that have different ones; some dont' even define an ebike at all (or any kind of assisted bike), which means that it's up to law enforcement and the courts to decide if they want to ticket and try those using them, depending on how their vehicle code is set up.
When I only have 1kW in a typical hubmotor (like my 20" rear wheel), and I have the dogs in the trailer, or a load of dog food, it takes me upwards of 12-15 seconds to get across the intersection from a stop, more on some of them. This is an eternity to any cars behind me, and many are not that patient. If they cant go around me in the other lanes because of other traffic, they'll begin doing dangerously stupid things.
Wherever possible I don't put myself into that sort of situation, but it isn't possible to always stay out of the way of people like that.
So, sure, I could still move the stuff with that power (not up the hills, cuz the hub would melt, but it's mostly flat here), but the acceleration time would be too long and too dangerous to make a number of my trips practical and/or safe.
And when my body was in better shape, I did that sort of thing (not in lycra but that's because I didn't really know anything about bicycle stuff other than how to ride one, more or less, until I started my assist quest several years ago). I've never had high quality bikes, just junk someone else didn't want, but I had a lot of fun with them and they have been my main transport mode most of my life. (I've never needed a driver's license or car; the few occasions I need to move stuff (or travel) outside my capabilites, I've had friends I could go with).
That is exactly what mine is. With it I don't need a car. Without it, I would be unable to do most of the travel I want and/or need to do, because I can't afford a car with the extortionate insurance rackets here, even if I wanted one (which I don't).
Someday I'd like to do that...but around here it'd probably get stolen. Nobody wants my junkbikes so they get left alone. :lol: Besides, I can't afford any of that stuff new, and rarely run across anything used like that at an affordable price.
recumpence
1 GW
As one who loves (and can afford) high end products, I must say there is a big difference in quality. That being said, for basic transportation, high end components are not needed. For performance, high end stuff adds much to the equation.
Matt
Matt
arkmundi
10 MW
Yup. If you've got some lazy bills lying around and want to enter the multi-hued world of eBikes, or want to upgrade, then put those dollars on the most expensive troublesome component - the battery. On my MAC 10T/Trek Shift 3 build, I spent about $650 apiece on three parts: a new Trek Shift 3, a new A123 AMP20 48 volt 20ah battery build, and the MAC kit complete with Infineon 12fet 4110 controller, throttle and so forth. So spent about $2000 total for the build, including shipping. And expect it performs as well as or better than those Haibike. On the road. I'm not travelling trail or doing downhill MTB or racing.EVTodd said:
These bikes are made for very hard technical downhill riding. Yea, if I were to do that, I'd spend double my $2000, and get similar components as are in the Haibike. Do a mid-drive like the Bosh. It'd have to have full suspension and really good hydraulic brakes. Its very possible to get the equivalent of the Haibike for less than $5K, building it yourself. Meaning, you're putting in sweat equity. If I did the same for someone else, as a service, I could see asking upwards to that $7800 price tag for the top of the line Haibike XDURO Fullcarbon Frame:
friendly1uk
1 MW
I'm not price driven. I took off a deore derailleur and fitted an altus. It's stronger and more precise. The deore was all about weight for bikes people only pedal. This is a common theme. Bike parts priced mainly by weight, which is not at the forefront of ebike needs.
I don't have a butted frame that will dent itself and my wallet. I have something made of scaffold tube that won't fall apart if a train hits it.
Geometry don't cost at all. If you spend a lot it won't be comfortable though. So actually the more you spend the worse it gets.
Our needs can be quite contrary to a cyclists. Often the bits cyclists really want, we really don't want.
I built myself an upright tank for hitting potholes at speed. I used big strong components. Which by virtue of being big and strong, were also cheap and common.
Don't let price be a guide. You will end up on a uselessly weak road bike if you follow cost blindly.
I don't have a butted frame that will dent itself and my wallet. I have something made of scaffold tube that won't fall apart if a train hits it.
Geometry don't cost at all. If you spend a lot it won't be comfortable though. So actually the more you spend the worse it gets.
Our needs can be quite contrary to a cyclists. Often the bits cyclists really want, we really don't want.
I built myself an upright tank for hitting potholes at speed. I used big strong components. Which by virtue of being big and strong, were also cheap and common.
Don't let price be a guide. You will end up on a uselessly weak road bike if you follow cost blindly.
arkmundi
10 MW
Well yea, for most people, most of the time, there is only so much money you're going to invest in an eBike project. My first build was on a Gary Ross Gitchee, a vintage 1980's MTB by the designer of the first of that genre. A bike I had loved riding when I was younger and more able. It was a bike just lying around unused for years because I didn't have the heart to sell it. Then I discovered hub motors and eBikes and it was like, wow.
Got a kit, including battery. Burned up the original battery on the first ride. That's when I discovered the ES forum, looking for better battery. Tried out a recommendation on the site for AllCell. But that was a miserable experience. Discovered people buying quality cells and building their own batteries. So did that, with the A123 AMP20 prismatic cells. It was marvellous being back on a bike and the hills of my home city not being a problem. So the Gitchee build was rather low cost compared to my current ride.
I'm with you, getting a really solid frame & suspension, on the cheap, because weight, while something to consider, is going to be less important than strong & robust. Much of the cost of high-end bikes is to carve every ounce while not sacrificing strength.
But as a lover of the bike, I admire quality components, in the dérailleurs, brakes, shocks, chains, etc. But all these can be had these days for very attractive prices. So spend money, but do so wisely, and with an eye for how you're going to use and/or abuse it.
Got a kit, including battery. Burned up the original battery on the first ride. That's when I discovered the ES forum, looking for better battery. Tried out a recommendation on the site for AllCell. But that was a miserable experience. Discovered people buying quality cells and building their own batteries. So did that, with the A123 AMP20 prismatic cells. It was marvellous being back on a bike and the hills of my home city not being a problem. So the Gitchee build was rather low cost compared to my current ride.
I'm with you, getting a really solid frame & suspension, on the cheap, because weight, while something to consider, is going to be less important than strong & robust. Much of the cost of high-end bikes is to carve every ounce while not sacrificing strength.
But as a lover of the bike, I admire quality components, in the dérailleurs, brakes, shocks, chains, etc. But all these can be had these days for very attractive prices. So spend money, but do so wisely, and with an eye for how you're going to use and/or abuse it.
ARod1993
100 W
EVTodd said:
That really depends; if you know what you're doing and are willing/able to do most of the work yourself, then you can probably put together a quality full-suspension XC/AM bike for around $1000-1400 if you get the frame used. At that point you're looking at $200-400 for the frame and rear shock, another $400 for the drivetrain (Shimano SLX, upper mid-range stuff including very high quality hydraulic disc brakes with 180mm front/160mm rear rotors), $200-300 for a decent front fork, and then $200 for decent wheels and $60-70 for a stem and bars. That price is for parts only, and assumes that you either own or know someone who owns most of the needed tools for assembling everything; it also doesn't include the time and knowledge required to put everything together, true up the wheels, and make minor but important adjustments on the finished product. I'd personally balk at paying more than $2500 or so for a pedal bike, mostly because I'm not a professional racer and don't need to stay on the bleeding edge of what's possible in order to commute and have fun on trails.
Hillhater
100 TW
The bike products and their pricing have moved to meet the demand for "luxury" up market products.
Many of these expensive items are not needed for the daily cyclist , commuter, or recreational rider......other than as "trophies " to show off at the coffee shop on the weekend !
Unfortunately , the popularity of flash faux racer components has also driven up the pricing of many " standard" components, making it hard to ride with quality components on a sensible budget,
Many of these expensive items are not needed for the daily cyclist , commuter, or recreational rider......other than as "trophies " to show off at the coffee shop on the weekend !
Unfortunately , the popularity of flash faux racer components has also driven up the pricing of many " standard" components, making it hard to ride with quality components on a sensible budget,
Avitt, to answer your question on the Bosch powered systems, the Haibike is the only one that I've seen so far although Felt has a fat tire model that may be available in the US. The least expensive Haibike is $4000 US for a hardtail, and IMO would be a $1000 or less bike without the Bosch mid drive (for instance the front fork sells for $100 and the frame, which I've been told is manufactured in China, is garden variety aluminum; components, while serviceable, are low end). The $3000 premium for the Bosch seems excessive (TO ME) even though it's affordable and there is the consideration of resolving any warranty issues.
Avitt
100 W
Yeah, that's pretty much what I wanted to know. So the rough estimate is that probably $2500-$3000 of the retail price is due to the Bosch system. That's quite a premium.
So the Bafang MAX system is targeted towards the EU market, and will sell on bikes starting at less than 2000 euro. That probably means that the MAX drive will be account for $1000-$1500 of the retail price...or roughly half the price of the Bosch drive system.
So the Bafang MAX system is targeted towards the EU market, and will sell on bikes starting at less than 2000 euro. That probably means that the MAX drive will be account for $1000-$1500 of the retail price...or roughly half the price of the Bosch drive system.
Myron's Extreme Machines in Fullerton (CA) has the Haibike and a $3000 or so BBS02 based bike with components that are similar to the Haibile (AFAIR). In this instance the premium is about $2000 or more. I'd be interested in a Bosch mid bike, even a fully rigid, for $2000 -$2500.
kfong
100 kW
The BBS02 is a good alternative for a stealthy midrive option, the problem is the quality. From what I've read, many have had issues with the unit. I just purchased one recently, it came well packaged. I'm still not convinced after looking at it first hand that it can take the trail abuse I plan for it. My BMC, has been nothing but reliable, but it's not a mid drive comparison. A fully integrated design is going to be better overall, rather than something you piece meal together. This new build is just to provide a backup, for when my trail bike needs servicing and allow friends to ride along. It is a cheaper alternative but not necessarily a better one. You can't really integrate a Bosch drive unless you build your own frame. If they sold them, making a custom frame would be something I would actually concider. The problem you have is the cost and your time ends up close to purchasing one. That being said, building Ebikes is one of my hobbies. If I can't match the performance, than I'm more than willing to buy it. For trail riding, it's more about how the bike handles.
Avitt
100 W
2old said:
...Not going to happen, since it looks like that is about what Bosch wants just for the drive system. $3500 is probably the lowest you could hope for, for a basic hardtail.
Abagrizzli
10 W
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Avitt said:
I think KTM bikes are the cheapest with Bosch system. And if you succeed to find one in an online shop in Russia it will be even cheaper. Found KTM eRace 29 for 2000$ in some russion store. Not sure if they have it in stock though.
arkmundi said:
Just wanted to comment on that. Almost all of the MTB e-bikes which are offered today, are suitable for XC, maybe a little bit of AM with their very steep head angles - usually 68 to 70 degrees, and short travel suspensions. The only viable option would be Haibike Xduro Nduro, either Pro or RX 26, this one only can be considered as true All-Mountain with its components, 180 mm suspension and 65.5 head angle degrees. But the price on this one is unreasonable, going to almost 10G bucks for the high version and 9G for the low. At this price I can get a decent DH bike with XT kit and good suspension with a crazily priced Ego kit, and still be under 10G. There is no true production DH e-bike available at the market right now, as far as I know.
kfong
100 kW
I looked at the Ego units, unfortunately they are not an option due to the gear noise. They are basically repackaged cyclone motors. Way too obvious in the trails, since that was my first foray into the world of Ebikes. With the negative reactions to Ebikes in the mountanbike community, going stealth is the only option.
Abagrizzli
10 W
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Since e-biking has zero representatives on our trails, we don't need to go stealth, it's simply not an issue. I think any MTB with any kind of motor just draw curiosity, nothing more. That's why this powerful kit is of interest. But I agree, I'd rather pay for Bafang and have all these battery options open, than pay 4000 euro for 12 kilos pack...kfong said:
maxwell92036
100 W
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Quality mountain bikes come at a price. It is not about showing it off or snob appeal. Quality mountain bike forks cost 500 dollars plus. Quality wheelsets cost $500 plus. You can get a decent mountain bike at $2,000 but for much less you start sacrificing. Good luck trying to piece together a full suspension bike that will be comparable to $5,000 bikes for under $1500. Almost everyone watches their money and bicyclists are no different. Trust me if they could spend $1,500 on a bike that would perform like a $5,000 one they would be all over it.
maxwell92036 said:
I was probably a little low when I said anything over $1000 was for bragging and I agree that some expensive parts are really nice to have. Full suspension with quality parts is expensive especially on a downhill bike (This Haibike isn't a downhill bike btw, I think someone else mentioned that too). But, is that stuff going to help me on my commute to and from work on normal roads using an ebike that is assisting me? Does that little bit of extra loss of power I have from cheaper bearings in my hubs hurt that much on an ebike? Will a $250 titanium stem really help me that much on my commute? How about those nice $200 seat posts? If I was the kind of rider that would notice the difference I wouldn't need a motor. I'm sorry, some stuff just is for bragging rights. Not everything, granted. I see a lot of overweight lycra guys in my area riding carbon fiber frames and I always have to kind of laugh and think how much money they would save if they just lost a few pounds instead of trying to save weight on the frame.
Abagrizzli
10 W
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Any biking (mountain, road, street, electric) is a hobby, as much as it sport. And as such, the price doesn't really matter, as long as there is some statement behind the product. You can commute on a Walmart 150$ "bike", and it will take you wherever you need without much fuss. But most of us looking not just for "going from point A to point B using our leg power and two wheels", but rather a full time occupation in continuous upgrade and alteration of the much beloved machine. Objectively, more expensive stuff is better at many levels, than cheap components. It's more durable, more efficient, more designed, have a brand on it. Do you really need it? I suppose not. But do you want it?
To make my point in short - it's not about the price, it's about how much you are ready to invest in your hobby.
To make my point in short - it's not about the price, it's about how much you are ready to invest in your hobby.
Abagrizzli said:Any biking (mountain, road, street, electric) is a hobby, as much as it sport. And as such, the price doesn't really matter, as long as there is some statement behind the product. You can commute on a Walmart 150$ "bike", and it will take you wherever you need without much fuss. But most of us looking not just for "going from point A to point B using our leg power and two wheels", but rather a full time occupation in continuous upgrade and alteration of the much beloved machine. Objectively, more expensive stuff is better at many levels, than cheap components. It's more durable, more efficient, more designed, have a brand on it. Do you really need it? I suppose not. But do you want it?
To make my point in short - it's not about the price, it's about how much you are ready to invest in your hobby.
Now I can agree with most of that!
Like I said, I have hobbies that I spend way too much money on too. If spending $5k on a bike floats yer boat then great. But, just because a bike part is more expensive doesn't mean it's better. Some stuff is just made by smaller companies that have to sell their stuff for more to make money. I was around the bike industry for several years, there are a lot of expensive crap products out there too.And do I want it? Hell yeah, I want a Haibike for sure. That's why I'm pissed that they're too damn expensive. lol :lol: I think that brought the conversation around full circle!
Tom Tom
100 W
arkmundi said:
maxwell92036
100 W
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EVTodd said:Abagrizzli said:Any biking (mountain, road, street, electric) is a hobby, as much as it sport. And as such, the price doesn't really matter, as long as there is some statement behind the product. You can commute on a Walmart 150$ "bike", and it will take you wherever you need without much fuss. But most of us looking not just for "going from point A to point B using our leg power and two wheels", but rather a full time occupation in continuous upgrade and alteration of the much beloved machine. Objectively, more expensive stuff is better at many levels, than cheap components. It's more durable, more efficient, more designed, have a brand on it. Do you really need it? I suppose not. But do you want it?
To make my point in short - it's not about the price, it's about how much you are ready to invest in your hobby.
Now I can agree with most of that!
And do I want it? Hell yeah, I want a Haibike for sure. That's why I'm pissed that they're too damn expensive. lol :lol: I think that brought the conversation around full circle!
Bicycles are in a very competitive market. Lot's of manufacturers so they have to compete for the customer much like all other industries do. I don't think too many people are getting rich in the bicycle business. I had a bike shop for years and I know what the margins are and it is even more competitive today. XC full suspension can be as much or more than a downhill bike. Probably at least half the cost of the Haibike is in the motor and battery. So you are looking at around $2500 for the bike and if you study the components they are pretty good, so it is probably a pretty fair price. Of course one could always wait til the new models come out and hope to get some closeout discount on it. Specs here: http://www.currietech.com/haibike/haibike-xduro-fs-rx-27-5-d-4
arkmundi
10 MW
Its a good question, of what goes into the make, the true cost to manufacture this bike. And what Currie is going to do with it. I expect we'll see them put a different motor & battery in it, and drop the price to put it in the hands of more people. Attempting to mainstream and build volume. Their acquisition was for the name-brand and balance of components. At what price might I pause to consider? Around $4000 to $4500. If I had the stamina to do MTB trail again that is.maxwell92036 said: