Aprilia RS125 conversion, The Jozzbike

[Jozzer]

Hi Phil, I bought the Agnimotor direct from Cedric (he even came down to help me fit it up and made a sprocket for me). http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?op ... &Itemid=37 (quick video here, check out Cedrics 200 mile at 50mph velomobile!. I'm sure they will be glad to hear from any new customers, and I can vouch for thier customer support and ability!
Mine is the 500A kelly, but no, they can't take anything above 90v fully charged (72v lifebatts are 88v at full charge and 80v for the first few miles).
Stephen at Kelly is preparing a 120v 1000A controller for me:)

I'm absolutly sure that the agnimotor will be a huge step up power wise over a mars motor..

Thanks Bruno, I'm hoping it will "move a little" too:) I'm going to be aiming initially at 110mph top speed, and hoping for 120+. The Isle of Mann is getting closer!

Steve

[GGoodrum]

Yes indeed Gary. I'll be making some more video next month with Andy Marsh (evmotorcycles.org) to log progress.

The Perm motor let go of one of its armature clips, I suspect because of poor constuction. It seems the offending clip was not soldered properly in place.
THough the Perm is repairable, I have replaced it with a reinforced AgniMotor, that Cedric Lynch assures me will manage close to 20HP continuous and 40HP peak.
So far its working very well indeed, it is noticeably more efficient than the Perm motor, I get slightly better accelleration than before, with the same top speed (80mph).
Right now, I am contemplating what to do next, either add a second motor to the Aprillia, and take voltage up to 90v (Agnimotor is good to 6000rpm), or, start prepping the DUcati Supersport that is sitting in the workshop for dual motors and leave the aprilia as is. In any case, I will be rebuilding the aprilia's battery boxes with alluminium, and tidying the wiring. At some point Teh Jozzbike must be sold on to pay for the next project....

Cant remember if this video has been posted here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMaI73hSv7I
Interview with Andy Marsh a couple of months ago.

Onwards and upwards...


Steve

Wow, it keeps getting better. So what is the "final" battery configuration now, is it all LiFeBatts now, or do you still have the 24s4p a123 pack as part of the mix? What sort of BMS did you end up with? How are you handling the LVC function?

Is the AgniMotor brushed, or brushless?

Anyway, keep the updates coming. I love the vids, too.

-- Gary

[Jozzer]

For the moment its rigged with 24s4p LifeBatts. The A123 pack is looking to make a comeback in the Electric CR Crosser again this winter:) I'm still in 2 minds about final config, it could go to 30s5p, but I may leave it up to the potential new owner to decide!
For LVC I am still using a homemade board (pretty much Our BMS is coming along, we have pinched a bit of all the best BMS's we found, andfor the moment we are balancing at 1.5A. Just to test to the max, I will be mounting one on a watercooled block to find the max (components rated to 8A!!). Usefull for fast workshop balancing of big problem packs!
It has LVC built in, and ultimatly I intend to have one looking after the cells full time.

Probably I wont actually "finish" it untill the Ducati is running. I need something to ride!
Bruno, it is indeed an agni 95. Brushed motor..i've not seen a brushless that will put out the power yet.
Thanks for the encouragment guys:)

Steve

[Jozzer]

I'd say the 500A on the Agni Bruno. Kelly's are Motor Current Limited (don't let safe see this!), i'd say a 30% bigger Kelly is roughly equal to an alltrax. My controller only draws a peak of about 350A from the battery's, not far off what the alltrax 300A draws (saw over 330A on mine), though performance is definitly better on the kelly, so I am sure the motor "see's" more current than that.
Cedric has tested his motors for several minutes at 400A. He told me that 200A continuous should be fine, perhaps more with adequate cooling.
It runs much cooler than the Perm under the same load/current, I've barely had it above 45C yet..must not be trying hard enough!
It might be possible to get away with the 600A controller, if you really want to push it, but I suspect that would give you the ability to actually fry the motor. Of course, if yu are sure to put in a temp cutout somewhere close to the heat then you could get away with it.
Its a shame Kelly's are so hard to hack, it would be nice to have a feature that the contrller cut power to 40% if the motor got above say 70 or 80C. Perhaps the 1/2 speed reverse feature could be used, though this would of course limit speed yet presumeably still allow too much current for a hot motor.

Battery current maximum is apparently factory set by Kelly. They are a little conservative perhaps, when ordering you should email Steven saying "please remove the battery current limit, since I am sure my batteries can manage up to 500A". He had a hard time accepting that my pack could do that, and I had to return a 500A controller that only pulled about 270 batery side (which meant that although the lower RPM pulled @ 500A, the mid to high RPM were limited by the imposed battery limit).


Here's The Duke (and I dont mean Ellington)

Steve

[HAL9000v2.0]

Hi Steve,

Again you manage to crash my concept. Seams that this Agni motor will be much better solutions for motocross type of driving then Perm. I see that it will do easy 72V200A continuous. Do you have drawing of the motor maybe? I can see only M6 screws on the edge of the motor to hold it down. Is there fan inside?

[Jozzer]

Hi Hal, there are bolts arountd the outside, and 4 around the centre too. The armature acts as a large fan, this motor has better ventilation than the Perm too, it has larger air inlet holes at front and back close to the brushes, and throws the warm air out the sides.

When I get my second motor I will take pics!
Steve

[vanilla ice]

The DuCk is really a beautiful motorcycle with plenty of room for batteries

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[vanilla ice]

Well thats what we call them italian jobs here. A Duke is a KTM. Not a real big fan of ducs, but even I don't want to see one of those get hacked up into an ebike. An RS125 is one thing..

[drewjet]

That Agni motor sure looks nice. Seems as it would be "THE" ticket for a 600 sized A123 powered bike.

I will be currious to see your impressions of it as you use it.

Once again Jozzer you have raised the bar!

[Jozzer]

Well thats what we call them italian jobs here. A Duke is a KTM. Not a real big fan of ducs, but even I don't want to see one of those get hacked up into an ebike. An RS125 is one thing..

Look the other way then vanilli, she's getting her last loud and smelly run tomorrow, then she's for the chop The frame is a beauty, despite what you say about KTM. Very rigid indeed.

Aye Drew, I'm liking the Agni very much. Andy Marsh is coming by again in a few weeks, we'll do some more video with a nice run. How's the drewcell bike going?

And thanks Bruno, I'd forgotten that!

Steve

[drewjet]

The Drewcells are proving to not be up to my standards. They have lost capacity considerably. I had about a 20 mile range and after 1000 miles I am down to about 12. The power drops off dramatically after about 7 or 8 miles. The Mars brushless is going strong, as strong as it was originally. However it is not strong enough. Fine for comuting, but I want a bit more than a commuter.

I have been extremly busy with work so I haven't had much time to be prettying the bike up. So for now, I just ride and stay within about an 8 mile range, charge her up and go again.

I am keeping my eye open for what I will use on the next build, I was thinking of the Mars ME0709 (Etek RT) but your Agni looks to blow that away in power capability. Also I want to go to either A123 or LifeBatts. So for now I will enjoy my ride and dream of the next one and watch to see what proves out over time, and keep putting my pennies away for it.

[Jozzer]

Sorry to hear the DrewCells are not holding up:( You'll be fine with either A123 or LifeBatt, i've not seen any noticeable drop in capacity from any of the A123's or LifeBatts i've bought yet, and theres been a few! (I treat 'em mean too ) My family will probably have to dig an extra large grave so I can take them with me when I die!

Thanks Bruno, had a great day. It was my birthday, so I threw my girlfriend on the Duke and set off to use up the last of the petrol in the tank. Unfortionatly, there wasn't quite enough in the tank, and I confess I am guilty of buying another £5 of petrol! Summer finally arrived as we sped through lots of wonderfully sunny english countryside on the ridiculously loud Duck and got back with our ears ringing. Really, I am doing the world and myself a huge favour by silencing this silly machine!
Thats it now, i'll have the engine out by the end of the week and pop it on ebay to help pay for the huge Kelly controller:)

Hope your both having a good weekend too,
Steve

[pgt400]

Steve, Are you using a BMS or LVC ? In the case of PSI 10 ah cells, where you would have 96 cells, 4 in Parallel and 24 in sieres, I guess you monitor each row of 4P cells? Thought being that you first charged each single cell before assembly and the 4 in Parallel would self? I see where some BMS claim to montior each cell with a fet at the negitive side, I would think this would introduce too much resistance for anything but a low current conversion?

Phil

[Jozzer]

Hi Phil,
I use both. LVC is onboard, and the balancer for the moment plugs in for a manual balance at 1.5A.
My packs are actually aranged in 24s strings, each string having a 13 wire connection to each other, the LVC, and the balancer when it is plugged in.

This will be rebuilt soon, and in the process I will add a charge port, and use the (untested as yet) current limiter to throttle back when first cell reaches 3.6 to protect the BMS when it starts shunting, so the balancer can live on the bike.
In theory, our BMS (I have a partner in this crime!:P), should be able to handle up to 8A, so far with a 1cm thick heatsink we have tested to 2A. I do alot of balancing of cells to build into packs, so I figure it will be nice to have packs balance several times quicker than they do currently, but I don't really think that kind of high current balancing is needed in 99% of cases. We hope one day soon to have it finished, and will build some for sale, and offer boards for home building.

On another note, my 1000A controller has arrived from Kelly (very efficient postal service from China, put us europeans to shame!).
I think I'll have all I need to get the Ducati on the road when I pick up the second Agnimotor from Cedric/Arvind this week. Best I get that engine out and start a new thread!


Apologies if this is illegible, i've gone a few days without sleep, think I'd better go get my head down!

Steve

[pgt400]

Steve,

What is the LVC, 2.5 per cell? Could this be achieved with the Kelly controller in the setup for the complete pack (24*2.5=60 volts), or is it a must to monitor all 24 seires cells? What is your gear ratio for 80 mph..... 3.2 ? You must pull some heavy amps off the line.

[Jay64]

Steve, what is this 1000a kelly controller I hear you talking about? I was looking at their website and the biggest one I found was 144v 400a. I think it was the KDH14401a or something of that nature.

[Jozzer]

Gearing is 11/60. It will always pull heavy amps off the line, but it still pulls very well. For LVC, if you want to drain batts completly and not risk cell losses, you will need LVC monitoring individual cells. Especially at high volts, the loss of a cell in series under power would not be noticeable untill it was too late.

1000A controller is special order from Kelly, they have made a few for odd folk. My guess they will be making more if the Zilla doesn't reappear anytime soon!
Its basically the 800A 120v KDH opto isolated model, beefed up a little.

[Malcolm]

The 1000A Kelly controllers are listed here http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mo ... t_id=34,33 but they don't give more detailed specs for them yet.

Steve, it's good to see you're staying with Kelly. I've seen a lot of reports about reliability problems from different sources, but they seem to be in this business for the long run and are quick to replace defective controllers. They're top of my short list for my next project, mainly because of the programmability and torque control. I look forward to hearing how you get on with the big one.

[pgt400]

Ok, so you monitor 96 cells as 4 sieres strings. I was going to make 4P blocks and monitor them as 24, 3.2v 40 ah cells.

[Ypedal]

When dealing with low mah cells like powertool types, it's easier to group in P first then series them up.. but with 10ah cells.. and only 4p, safer and worth the effort to run single series strings for monitoring imo..

[Jozzer]

the main reason I did it the way I did, was so that the nearest string needs only a 6 inch cable to connect to motor/controller, the next nearest needs 12 inches, and only the furthest needs 3 foot, rather than having the main powerline running all the way round the bike and losing power over the whole 6 foot run!

[drewjet]

Is that Agni going to be able to handle the 1000 amps, or are you still planning on 2 motors?

If you are doing 2 motors are you planning on a series/parallel switch?

[Jozzer]

Aye, 2 Agni's in parallel. No plans for a switch yet, I think it will take alot of space to mount a DPDT contactor and cabling that big. I will think about it again if it feels like it needs it though.
Cedric has tested the Agni past 2 minutes at 400A I believe in workshop environment with no added airflow. Perhaps they can do a little better with some air ducted in from the front, but only in a drag race.The TT is a long race, and I think 2x continuous is a good place to start reliability wise. If the motors don't get warm "enough" at 500A peak each I'll pass the info on

Steve

[Njay]

Hi Jozzer, what drive and rear sprockets are you using and where did you get them? Did you kept the original chain size?

[Jozzer]

Hi Njay,

15 tooth front, 60 tooth rear both made inhouse (I can offer custom made sprockets if you have trouble finding them). 428 chain is plenty for a single Agni.

For anyone interested, this bike is coming up for sale again!


Steve