Fort Collins e-bike rider collides with Expedition

[NeilP]

Why doesn't the anti-helmet crowd expand the argument of better gear making worse riders to other biking gear, rather than gun ownership, cockfighting, building safety, and bull baiting? Keep on topic will ya!

it is as much on topic as your points...i am not anti helmet. I have one and do wear it some time It is the whole principle of it that I was pointing out...and the fact that it is not just in relation to helmets...it is in all parts of life that the do gooders are interefering with what others want to do...

once helmets are compulsary it wont be long before body armour comes in to play and you have to wear full motor cross kit even to go 200 yards down the shops...while walking

 

[TylerDurden]

once helmets are compulsary it wont be long before body armour come sin toe play and you have to wear full motor cross kit even to go 200 yards down the shops...while walking

Logical extremes are not always relevant to practical likelyhood.

Mandatory seatbelt laws for autos has not resulted in helmets, roll-cages and harnesses; despite their proven efficacy.

 

[NeilP]

Logical extremes are not always relevant to practical likelyhood..

i am sure that is what the anti smoking lobby would have said if someone had said, they wont ban smoking in private houses, and they only wnated to ban in in public bars and resturants...Now in places there are already many in the anti smoking lobby trying to ban people from smoking in their own homes, ...I personally hate smoking ...but supported the ones that do and supported those against the ban..

..[/quote]

Mandatory seatbelt laws for autos has not resulted in helmets, roll-cages and harnesses; despite their proven efficacy.

no becaue the majority of people would complain...not the minority..as usual...miniority have no rights if the majority

no but the designs of most soft top cars now incorporate so much stuff around them that they are barely open top cars. I get people commenting all the time, when the top is down about my Softop landrover and the fact that it has not Roll cage...but no one says a word when the canvas is up.
4x4 vehicles used to have proper steel bumpers...that were actually bumpers that you could push/pull with ...now they are useless soft plastic things that have lights in them and are totally ineffective at towing/ pushing other vehicles tying stuff too etc..

 

[TonyReynolds]

Neil, great helmet. Wish I could afford it... This whole discussion has me rethinking what type of helmet I wear.

Here's a great site on bicycle safety. Many will be familiar with what's said, some not. Just throwing it out for general edification:

http://bicyclesafe.com/

As has been noted, this type of attention to safety is probably more important than the whole helmet/no helmet argument.

If true, the cited statistic at the bottom of the page is chilling:

Around 33,000 people die in car crashes in the U.S. each year
About 1 in 41 is a bicyclist

Of course this is only collisions with cars. There are lots of other ways to get hurt. For all I know, more people may be seriously injured or killed falling off ladders each year than in bicycle incidents...
Tony

 

[John in CR]

NewMex, Dogman, et al.,

Your push for helmets is inappropriate because they provide no meaningful increase in cycling safety. You've been sold a bill of goods by those who profit from selling fear and the idiot do gooders who think they are better at regulating what's good for you than you can decide yourself. While using one or not is a statistical push for the average individual, the incessant promotion of helmet use, along with ridicule of those saying anything contrary about their use, are a negatives for society as a whole, because it discourages ridership. Stop being a negative to society as a whole and just drop the whole helmet thing. Wear one if you want. I do sometimes. Just stop your baseless selling of fear.

For those who think riding is so dangerous and helmets make them safe, and that there's no possibility that their riding changes, I say BS. It's human nature that in the face of higher perceived risk, more care is taken.

No helmet can prevent a crash, but they absolutely cause some. It just so happens that cycling is a safe enough activity that only a small amount of helmet caused crashes negates their overall benefit.

If you're feeling so unsafe out there, maybe you need to change bikes. I know I didn't like a regular bike made into an ebike, and didn't feel safe at all with the high center of gravity and short wheelbase. Now that I think about it, I may have put my helmet on most, if not all the time, on that first ebike.

 

[John in CR]

Here's a great site on bicycle safety. Many will be familiar with what's said, some not. Just throwing it out for general edification:

http://bicyclesafe.com/

As has been noted, this type of attention to safety is probably more important than the whole helmet/no helmet argument.

If true, the cited statistic at the bottom of the page is chilling:

Around 33,000 people die in car crashes in the U.S. each year
About 1 in 41 is a bicyclist

Of course this is only collisions with cars. There are lots of other ways to get hurt. For all I know, more people may be seriously injured or killed falling off ladders each year than in bicycle incidents...
Tony

Yeah, BicycleSafe.com is a good read for anyone who hasn't. Even if you're an experienced rider, maybe you'll pick up something new to put in your arsenal.

Regarding fatalities, from what I've read, despite the lunacy we see on YouTube, FailBlog, etc., the majority of bicycle fatalities are reportable road accidents and mostly with cars. Wording it the way you quoted, 33,000 about 1 in 41 is a cyclist, makes it sound high, but that's only 800 out of tens of millions. Now you throw half that are kids, and require a separate discussion. That leaves 400 adults, half of which occur at night, another separate issue, especially when we don't know how many of those are drunks with no license, so now we're talking about 200 or so adult cyclists killed in road accidents.

While the legal fault may lie primarily with the car drivers, I have little doubt that the vast majority of that 200 are dumbasses making mistakes that left them exposed to the drivers or they are the ones who screwed up like in the subject of this thread. I'm talking about people who ride too close to parked cars, talking on the phone (hands free or not), listening to their Ipod, weren't paying close enough attention and hit a pothole, or whatever, ie easily avoidable accidents. Call that percentage conservatively 75%, though I believe 90%+ is more likely. So that leaves 50 out of a supposed 50 million bicycle riders. That's less than the number killed by lightning, and doesn't even take into account what % would have been saved by a helmet, which I believe is low anyway, especially considering that most cyclists head traumas are blows to the face. Even if helmets didn't cause accidents, which they obviously do, it's really not worth worrying about.

 

[dogman dan]

I don't wear a helmet because somebody told me to.

Back when I rode bikes with no helmet, the risks were easier to avoid, they drove pickup trucks, wore cowboy hats, and wanted to kill me with their bare hands. Now they drive anything, and are texting, putting on make up, shaving, and there are a hell of a lot more of them now that the town is a city.

Plus, at age 54, I simply don't bounce like I used to, and don't have the reflexes I had when I was a 20 something extreme snow skier. So now I just might be more likely to have a stupid accident, but not one caused by my running a blind corner.

Just saying why I wear one. I don't expect it to save me from a car. but I hope it does save me from rubbing the remaining hair on my head off on asphalt when I stick my front wheel in a pothole I overlooked while eyballing some hugger in that car over there.

So I'm wearing the helmet for that stupid boo boo I cause someday. I protect myself from cars mostly by riding around that street, taking a back road half mile around, and crossing some nasty road in another place. No jumping out there, thinking keeping up is going to keep me safe in USA traffic.

 

[TonyReynolds]

I don't wear a helmet because somebody told me to.

Back when I rode bikes with no helmet, the risks were easier to avoid, they drove pickup trucks, wore cowboy hats, and wanted to kill me with their bare hands. Now they drive anything, and are texting, putting on make up, shaving, and there are a hell of a lot more of them now that the town is a city.

Plus, at age 54, I simply don't bounce like I used to, and don't have the reflexes I had when I was a 20 something extreme snow skier. So now I just might be more likely to have a stupid accident, but not one caused by my running a blind corner.

Just saying why I wear one. I don't expect it to save me from a car. but I hope it does save me from rubbing the remaining hair on my head off on asphalt when I stick my front wheel in a pothole I overlooked while eyballing some hugger in that car over there.

So I'm wearing the helmet for that stupid boo boo I cause someday. I protect myself from cars mostly by riding around that street, taking a back road half mile around, and crossing some nasty road in another place. No jumping out there, thinking keeping up is going to keep me safe in USA traffic.

Ditto for me, age and everything.

 

[John in CR]

Now they drive anything, and are texting, putting on make up, shaving, and there are a hell of a lot more of them now that the town is a city.

That's why you need to travel at their speed to minimize how many of them you cross paths with. Of course, there's really no room for mistakes at those speeds, so leave the water bottle at home.

Regarding being older and healing slower is even more reason to leave the lid at home too, because you should want to minimize the chances of any serious accident, not just knocks to the head. Individuals vary though, and there are probably plenty whose overall odds are better with a helmet. The steadfast dismissal of my POV without really understanding it and thinking it through is a mistake. I'm just glad I'm not one of those better off with a lid on, because I've yet to find one that doesn't detract from the pleasant experience of riding. Plus that would mean that I'm better off on a bus, and I really try to avoid those petri dishes on wheels.

 

[chrisvw]

Back to the rider. I'm just back in town and read about this. The location is about 4 miles from where I live. I haven't heard the details other than the posted article, but from the newspaper account and the location, the rider must have had some major distraction to have run the stop sign at this location. The rider was hit on Lemay avenue - a major N-S road - and was coming from Breakwater - a residential street. If he in fact did not stop before entering Lemay, he was lucky to be alive. The curves on this section of Lemay keep you from seeing very far down the street. The good news is that it has a reduced speed limit because of the curves, so that may be why he even made it to the hospital.

 

[Solcar]

Back to the rider. I'm just back in town and read about this. The location is about 4 miles from where I live. I haven't heard the details other than the posted article, but from the newspaper account and the location, the rider must have had some major distraction to have run the stop sign at this location. The rider was hit on Lemay avenue - a major N-S road - and was coming from Breakwater - a residential street. If he in fact did not stop before entering Lemay, he was lucky to be alive. The curves on this section of Lemay keep you from seeing very far down the street. The good news is that it has a reduced speed limit because of the curves, so that may be why he even made it to the hospital.

Indeed, just yesterday someone waved to me, and when I turned my head forward again at a right turn, there was a police cruiser coming directly toward me. I'm glad the officer was looking!

On the way back, I looked around at the scene, and there was enough of a clearing to have seen the police car if I had been looking, which I guess I normally do.

 

[Starson]

Well, it looks to me like there's a lot of factors that go into determining if a helmet is necessary or advisable. Know thyself, seems appropriate in assessing the risks involved! Some people have a little black cloud that follows them around and you just know that something bad is going to happen because that is their lot in life, with most everything you do. Others have the "luck of the Irish", and can get away with almost everything and come out of situations like they have a pot of gold stuck up their netherminds!

So what I'm seeing in this thread is there is a lot more happening that statistics taken into account in total isolation, just can't account for. We have to take into account statistics, ability, performance, knowledge, past performance/history, seniority (age), environmental/social factors/awareness, and other unthought of factors, when trying to come up with an individual plan to create personal safety. And then of course, there's Murphy's Law (anthing that can happen, will happen). Seems more like Art than Science! Also seems like no single factor will determine what individuals "should do" with their given situation.

So everybody who has contributed to this thread appears to have had something valuable to say. Nobody is totally right (including myself) or totally wrong. Seems to me it's when we put all these things together, that's when we can get somewhat of a handle on our own personal safety. There's just not a blanket solution, and perhaps there never should be.

Thanks for helping me put this together,

Gary

 

[dogman dan]

Keeping up is not legal in the usa, for one. Keeping up often means a 45 mph speed limit, and they are going 55.

But the big difference John, is that people where you ride still look out the front window. Here, more and more, they are watching thier personal TV.

So what works here is more a matter of finding the back route, and trying to be alone on the road. Then watch out and trust nobody when you have no choice but to cross the busy street.

The helmet is not for cars. I'll likely be hugged if that happens. But I do sometimes crash. Like that guy wearing all black that one morning. Boy did I go flying over the bars that day. It turned out I flew past the curb that time, but I was still glad I had a hat on when I hit that moron.