What Classes would You take for this?

[Dauntless]

Keep in mind that just as Minnesota is the 'Land of 1,000 Lakes,' California is the birthplace of the 2 year community college and not only has 112 but most of the community colleges of other states (Or countries, I know Turkey has at least one community college) pale in comparison. I'm told well over half the community colleges are here.

So tonight someone told me that he was NOT studying Electrical Engineering at Chaffey College in Chino afterall, but instead Industrial Elecrical Technology. This came up as he's finishing Electrical Motors and Controls I. Sound interesting so far? The cost of Community College out here has "Soared" in the bad economy, a 3 unit class will cost $138. (GASP!) If you can get around lab fees, California subsidizes two years of college to the point you can get the AA degree for under $4,000, books and all. (Welding might be more like $6k, etc.)

Doesn't this look like an interesting group of classes for the electric vehicle builder? (To say nothing of the jobs that are out there.) That alone is about enough for the major for an AA.

IET-401B Industrial Basic Controls 2.50 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-401A, or one year or more of professional work
experience in a related field.
Study of batteries and other sources of electricity, magnetism, magnetic
induction, direct current generators, measuring instruments, resistive and
capacitive circuits.
Materials Fee: $2.50
Grading: Letter grade only

IET-403A Electrical Motors and Controls I 2.50 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-401A, or one year or more of professional work
experience in a related field.
Principles of motor controls. Direct current motors, basic trigonometry,
alternating current, inductance in alternating current circuits, resistive-inductivecapacitive
series/parallel circuits.
Materials Fee: $2.50
Grading: Letter grade only

IET-403B Electrical Motors and Controls II 2.50 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-403A, or one or more years of professional work
experience in a related field.
Applications of motor controls. Resistive-inductive parallel circuits, resistiveinductive-
capacitive parallel circuits, three-phase circuits, single- and three-phase
transformers, motors, & alternators.
Materials Fee: $2.50 Grading: Letter grade only

IET-409 Static Devices 3.00 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-403B, or one year or more professional work
experience in a related field.
Basic static devices, diodes, transistors, field effect transistors, silicon controlled
rectifiers, and other solid-state devices used in industry.
Materials Fee: $3.00
Grading: Letter grade only

IET-411 Programmable Logic Controllers 3.00 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-403B and 407, or two years or more of professional
work experience that includes basic computer skills.
Ladder diagrams, common computer terms, and operation of the programmer.
Verifying and programming of timers and counters. May be taken twice.
Materials Fee: $3.00
Grading: Letter grade only

IET-413 Intermediate Programmable Logic 3.00 UNITS
Controllers
Advisory: Completion of IET-411, or two years or more of professional work
experience that includes basic knowledge of PLC's.
Designing motor control systems, translating information from blueprint to ladder
diagrams and employing it into the PLC program, and applying assignments
into a hardwire system. May be taken four times.
Materials Fee: $3.00
Grading: Letter grade only

IET-419 DC Variable Speed Drive 1.50 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-403A, or two years or more of professional work
experience in a related field.
Function and controls of a DC variable speed drive and its application on the
field, including adjustments, settings, tuning, and configuration. May be taken
twice.
Materials Fee: $1.50
Grading: Letter grade only

IET-421 AC Variable Frequency Speed Drive 1.50 UNITS
Advisory: Completion of IET-419, or two years or more of professional work
experience in a related field.
Function and controls of an AC variable frequency drive and its application on
the field, including parameter, setting, tuning, and configuration. May be taken
twice.
Materials Fee: $1.50
Grading: Letter grade only

 

[MikeFairbanks]

I went to Palomar College before transferring to the University of Georgia. I was very happy with Palomar. Many family members attended, including my mother several years before me. She went on to UCSD and got a B.A. in visual arts. I went to UGA and got an early childhood degree.

When I went to Palomar I paid...I kid you not...fifty dollars per semester. My books cost more than tuition. I generally spend about two hundred per semester for books, rounding out my annual tuition to about five hundred dollars, including books. I basically did two years of college for a thousand dollars.

Then, my first year at UGA I paid out of state tuition and it was about twelve grand, including tuition, books, housing and a meal card. I gained residency (through the appeals process) and cut that in half the next year. Total bill: A college degree for less than twenty grand, and that included all housing and two years in food (I lived at home when I attended Palomar Community College).

My Masters wasn't bad either: Five grand a year for two years. My raise, as a result of the Masters, paid for itself in two years.

California community colleges are the real deal. Cheap and a quality education. I don't know what it costs these days, but when i was going it was five bucks a unit for a maximum of 10 units. Any classes above that were included in the fifty dollar fee. At the time it was basically three units per class, so I would either take three classes or four at a time and quite enjoyed them. I value my education from Palomar.

And I remember growing up my father saying, "why the hell are these kids going to four-year universities in California? They're wasting money when they can get the first two years for almost nothing."

He had a point, because if you had a certain grade point average after two years, the four-year state universities had to accept you (provided you took the proper general education classes for two years and prerequisites). If you had a B average, after two years, you were automatically accepted to the state universities (Cal State San Marcos, San Diego State University, etc.), and if you had a 3.6 or better you were automatically accepted to the UC system (UCLA, UCSD, UC Berkley, etc.). Of course, your acceptance depended on the proper coursework first, so if you took the easiest route possible in the first two years at community college you had a Popsicle's chance in Tuscon of getting into a science program, etc.

 

[Dauntless]

Each year since the economic conniption the unit fees at the community colleges here went up. $16-$26-$36 a unit, now it's to be $46. Still a bargain.

I don't remember exactly, but my original AA cost me less than $2k, the remaining 2 years to my BA cost less than $3k. I called it a "McBachelors Degree." Those days are gone. Someone said Cal State is $2k a semester for a fulltime student now. It's still a bargain. But people whine about paying anything. Less than half the community college students and less than 2/3rds of Cal Staters pay the fees. It's all covered by the 53% who pay taxes; whom Obama so dishonestly spouts about "Not paying their fair share."

 

[Kin]

Dauntless, the other 53% are still only covering their classes. Community classes are still overall subsidized by the gov, over and beyond the tuition fees. And, frankly, I think that's the way it should be. Either look at it as A) education opportunities are a good social "goal", or B) An education will very usually help the person do more with their skills and end up making more money, and be able to pay back taxes... Not trying to start an argument, but also trying to pipe up that I think more widely available education is one of the best things we got in the world for all the modern advances since ye olde days.

And, honestly, the people who Obama is saying aren't paying their share are usually given open access to private 4-year colleges, as long as they're reasonably in the ballpark of academically qualified. So they're not the ones involved in paying for community college tuition fees.

 

[Dauntless]

No no, the Government isn't subsidizing ANYTHING, the 53% who pay taxes are. Period. I'm one of those 53%, I think I paid over $7,000 in California State Income Taxes last year, but I'd have to go look. I didn't pay as much as those whom Obama pretends aren't paying their fair share, that's the simple fact. Education already is more widely available, it's just not taken advantage of. Even by people who enroll but don't really do the schoolwork. When I first worked myself through community college and Cal State while my Father was dying/after he died, (A 53% percenter from the start) I sure got tired of the clowns who had access to these institutions without being qualified AT ALL, (Generally not paying) screwing around and ruining for us really trying to get an education. You're not even required to finish high school or read and write to go to community college without paying to be there. When I paid full fees to go to UCLA that wasn't a problem, I once had to rescue a guy in the hall who'd been disrupting our class from the mob justice that didn't want to put up with them. Ahhhhh, how it was meant to be.

Wanted to sit in my truck and listen to the '60 Minutes' story about the guy who pays people to NOT go to college. I'd rather he'd pay them to get a STEM degree. (Science Technology Engineering Math) A education that we need people to get right now, rather than "Following their dream" while us 53% are forced to pay for it. There's a 46 year old man at my school who took a few classes when he was a teenager then dropped out and sort of made a living for close to 3 decades. His parents are paying him $1,000 for each class he takes; he made $7,000 this year, without working in EVERY sense of the word. (Is that number a coincidence, or is it numerology?) He'd getting a Board of Governors grant so he doesn't pay fees, it didn't cost him anything to not do anything. He's signed up for financial aid, grants, etc., estimating he'll get over $1,000 in free money next year to go with not paying some $1,000 in fees and a $2,500 interest free loan. Oh, don't forget the money from his parents. With the campus crowding, one person was turned away for each desk he sat in this year, with this to continue as long as he's in school, one person does not get to enroll for every time he makes $1,000 for not paying to be there not doing anything. By the way, new people in my department get the wrong idea about who I am, with all the tutoring I do and all the department work and me being there all the time. Whattaya know, the people who are paying to be there are the people who are doing things to get ahead. A sort of karmic enforcement of "You get what you PAY FOR."

Not only were there inaccuracies in the way you responded to me, (Anything disagreeing with what I had posted is factually wrong) but I'm not sure what motivated it at all. The people who Obama is saying aren't paying their fair share are paying more than the people going to the community college, they are paying FOR the people to go to community college, they are paying for a lot MORE than just for people to go to community college. To have access to private schools they have to PAY for the private schools, while others get money from the government (Paid by those Obama says aren't paying their fair share) they get money from charities, (Donated by those who Obama says aren't paying their fair share) etc. Oh, truth be told, the people whom Obama is saying aren't paying their fair share DO NOT have the same access to those private 4 year colleges when fully qualified as the people who aren't paying, by the way, especially among those who are not academically qualified and can't afford it but the laws require that they be allowed to go there at the expense of those who Obama is claiming aren't paying their fair share. I'd ask what your point is, but I just proved you don't have one.

 

[Kin]

Yo, man, I'm sorry. This is a good thread and I concede you have your own perspective and opinions, I really don't want to make anything get too off topic.

A quick fun-fact about the "53%". I don't know if it will make you feel any better to know this, but the number refers to people who pay income taxes. Those who do not pay income taxes actually still have social security deducted from their paychecks, property tax (even if they rent, in the sense that the landlord pays), etc. The number of people who do not pay at all is much lower, if that makes you feel better.

Something I don't understand about the political climate in america is that someone the relatively poor* rise up in indignation to defend the megarich. It's not really that I want there to be the opposite, vehemous rivalry, but I don't appreciate the ways in which I think a lot of information is falsely spread.

*relatively poor is probably not the best term for me to use. Mostly, because, as a culture we equate "poor" with "bad people." Which, obviously, is not a healthy association. But what I mean by relatively poor defending the megarich is that, somehow, for all those who are struggling financially, who are working their median wage job(s), maybe lost their job, they still find themselves comparing their experiences to those who are making $500,000 plus a year. This isn't about merits of how someone got to be megarich, it's just about the fact that most of the "53% who pay income taxes" are not at all in the same work-experience category of those who this conversation is talking about (the top ~3%).

So stepping back, we have different opinions, and probably shouldn't go further on that subject. But I just took the moment to say something because I don't think Obama is all that bad, and I didn't want to leave the public forum with having the record of a single voice.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

^^^^
That was a good reply.

Even kids pay taxes (sales tax), so there isn't a single person in this nation who isn't paying any taxes. The poorest of the poor are paying taxes on their electric bills, cars (if they have one), water bill....lots of taxes.

Picking on the poor isn't cool, and complaining about them is no different than picking on them. It's like seeing a disfigured woman at the pool and complaining that she uglies up the place. It's just insensitive.

I'm not poor, but spent about two years in poverty as a child. Garage sale clothing, food stamps (they looked like real money, but different colors...and it was very hard to make eye contact when paying with them when we went to the store). We even went without a fridge for a year and had to use an ice chest. We also didn't have a car. It broke down and my mom sold it for 100 bucks. We walked about three miles each way to the grocery store. All this lasted about two years or so, and then my mom found a good job and started making better money again.

I'm solid middle-class. I have a job that pays a bit under 60k and carries health insurance. I get sick leave too. I'm very grateful to have the work, and I put a lot of hard work and time into it (teaching). I don't feel a bit guilty if the former tax rates that worked great in the 90s are returned to those levels.

The "job creators" won't feel it a bit. It's three percent on the highest income earners, and they'll bear it just fine (like they always have).

Tax rates are at the lowest they've been in any of your lifetimes. Even if you're 70 years old you are witnessing the lowest income tax rates in your lifetime.

It's no coincidence that the gap between the ultra-wealthy and everyone else is getting wider. It's also no coincidence that the middle class is shrinking while the poverty level is rising.


But the best defense is a good offense, and so the ultra-wealthy hire a lot of people on radio, TV, print, online to tell you that we're almost in the grip of socialism, if not outright communism (when we are farther from it than ever in the last 80 years).


But you can either listen to people in the middle class or you can listen to someone making 50million a year on a radio or TV station. As long as they call you a "good American" you'll be right as rain.

Geeesh.

 

[pdf]

Not going to talk about the politics. Just the original question, which was basically I think, is an AA a better value for someone interested in building electric cars?

I would say I would get my degree based on what I wanted to do with it. If you want to build electric cars, I think some basic theoretical groundwork and experience would be the ticket. Very few EEs actually build anything, which is true of most engineers in the US actually. They run plants that make stuff. They get up at 2 AM when the product is off-spec and they are called in by the guy running the machine. 90% of the time, the guy running the machine knows what is wrong but making the decision of how to fix it is not in his job description; an engineer has to OK it. If you are going to build something, no one much cares what your degree is in; they care what the product is like. If you want to work for Chevy designing and engineering the Volt, you are going to have to have a min. of a BS. That is the way companies work.

A bigger question might be, what are you going to do if electric cars don't turn out to be "all that" after all. At a University, you are going to take courses to satisfy a "general education' requirement; psychology, economics, sociology, etc. You make take a lot of math and physics you will, in all likelihood, never use. If you want to learn a trade, a University is the world's most inefficient way to do that. Some smaller colleges still have an apprentice-ship like environment but many are trying to chase research money also and play for the big money. This is mostly a pipe dream for them; they should do what they do well.

If you want to build, the best thing to do is build. Find out what you need to know and learn it. A University is a terrible place to waste a passion for something that doesn't require a University degree. There are good reasons to go to a University, if they apply to you. If not, don't waste your time.

My 2 cents.

 

[dnmun]

add $.02, i would recommend you find the course notes for those courses and see if you actually consider it worth your time or if it is something you could teach yourself. you may find it too slow.

i agree with pdf about how you need at least a BS to get started somewhere and being an engineer is now just being a manager anymore. all the real electric vehicle stuff will happen in china, not here.

go gonzo, push yourself through the hard stuff, take math up through differential equations and systems of equations, physics through E&M and thermo and learn some solid state too and chemistry through advanced inorganic and organic, and more thermodynamics. the price you pay is time and lost life studying, but with a strong background you will have the basis to enter and help in a lot of areas not restricted to associates type courses.

when they hire you, they will want to see that you can do the work they do and can learn on the job what needs to be done. if you are already operating, or reading, at their level, you have the chance to get on, if the personality fits. BOL

 

[MikeFairbanks]

Personality is definitely important. A guy in my neighborhood with a superiority complex just got fired for not having a compatible personality with company culture. That had to hurt. They were really saying "we don't like you."

He's had it happen before. I suspect that at some point he's either going to get it or go off the deep end. He's extremely political and eventually pushes the wrong buttons.


No job is worth losing over politics or personality flaws. Sometimes who you are and how you treat others is far more important than your resume. After all, people have to be with you every day. They'd rather train a nice guy than hire a genius who's a jerk.

 

[number1cruncher]

I'm with Dennis and PDF here. An Associate degree does signal some type of commitment, but does not rise to the level most employers are looking for now-a-days. It is however a good base. And can save a person a lot of money the first two(three?) years. I got an AA from a community college, then transferred to a university and got my BS. I then sat for the CPA exam and passed. And you know what? More than half the jobs I look at where I work now, Municipal Government, prefer a master's degree. Isn't going to happen any time soon...

It's like seeing a disfigured woman at the pool and complaining that she uglies up the place. It's just insensitive.

I know, why didn't she think of that before she left the house? JK

 

[salty9]

If you want a no cost/low cost university education check|

http://distancelearn.about.com/gi/o...://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

You would, of course, be doing this for your own satisfaction as it wouldn't mean much to anyone else.

 

[pdf]

If you want a no cost/low cost university education check|

http://distancelearn.about.com/gi/o...://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

You would, of course, be doing this for your own satisfaction as it wouldn't mean much to anyone else.

I looked at a few of the engineering "courses". Basically, they are the instructor's powerpoint slides and some old homework and test problems. These no more constitute a course than a box of paints and a canvas constitutes the "Mona Lisa". I did not look at every course but from what I saw, you'd be better off getting a good book.

 

[Kin]

PDF, most courses are just video lectures. They've proven very helpful on a "case by case" basis, meaning, when I need to review one topic as my profs lectures sucked.

There are some courses, like the "OCW Scholars" or whatnot, that are much more developed and fleshed out. Multivariable calculus, and a few other of their most common courses. There aren't really any high level courses that are very fleshed out though. It's a work in progress.