New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[NisseMan]

Its a pity the hardware is subpar, there no real option to the TSDZ2 in this price range.
An rear hub with added torque sensor is the low cost option that comes to my mind

[ornias]

To make it more visual!

Can you PLEASE send me those cad files? :-D

[ornias]

..... the shaft don't have correct diameter. ....

That is a well known problem
There is just one bearing on that shaft and on the other side an rubber seal, so the shaft (and maingear) can wobble.

By adding 2 or 3 extra bearings that wobble will be minimized, because the shaft is on both sides supported.
Filling the space between shaft and inner bearing can improve this last bit too.

If you replace the rubber seals for bearings, these must be waterproof and sealed on the shaft.

NB
Because you have opened the complete motor, I advice before remounting to add an aluminium or copper heatsinkplate (about 1mm) for better heat dissipation. In the wiki this is described this with silicon heat conductive pads.

Poor tolerances of the pedal axle is it a manufacturing defect or maybe it was done by the manufacturer intentionally so that the torque sensor works correctly? if you borrow the foil under the bearing and eliminate the backlash, will the torque sensor work correctly?

The tolerances are not for the torque sensor, it's a weird combination of:
A. Ease of assembly in combination with the (VERY BAD IDEA) circlips
B. Terrible tolerances

So basically, they designed it to be an easy sliding fit, inherently adding play to a design that is already known for being senstive to play.

I'm working on getting a thoroughly redesigned (and actually hardened) axle made without the circlip grooves
Actually: just got note that the axle prototype has finished manufacturing and is on it way to me :-D

[ornias]

To make it more visual!

Also a note:
F can be replaced with a good enduro bearing for extra support as well

[skestans]

One of my TSDZ2 started making a clanking noise when pedaling. I have replaced the pedals themselves (in case the bearings in them were worn) and checked the cranks are tightly fastened to the TSDZ2's shaft, but the noise remains.

Any idea what it could be? I hope it's not the bearings in the motor because I don't have access to a bearing press to replace them. And the motor has around 1600km only.

[skestans]

Also, my system refuses to remember the assist setting. I have to lower it to 8 every time I start the bike and it reset to 9 after a power cycle.

I also had a weird issue where my other bike (not the one that's amnesic about assist setting) just reset itself. I parked it for the day and when I came back everything was back to factory settings. Never figured that one out either.

Running the latest available software version on 850C displays.

[ornias]

One of my TSDZ2 started making a clanking noise when pedaling. I have replaced the pedals themselves (in case the bearings in them were worn) and checked the cranks are tightly fastened to the TSDZ2's shaft, but the noise remains.

Any idea what it could be? I hope it's not the bearings in the motor because I don't have access to a bearing press to replace them. And the motor has around 1600km only.

Motor bearings can't really get (much) tordial load, so don't worry about those.

Poor tolerances and lack of enough-bearings in the axle is likely your problem.
Replace with good enduro bearings and also replace the two seals with bearings as well. (including, or even: more importantly, the spider seal)

[Elinx]

.... clanking noise when pedaling. ....

Try first to tighten the 33.5mm nut, to see if that can be the cause.

[casainho]

I would like to share my latest work. As my EBike uses the Bafang M500 motor, there is no OpenSource firmware for it and the original firmware has limitations and lack of features. Bafang has a few different motors and versions, and so I decided to not develop the firmware for a specific model. Instead, I will used the popular OpenSource VESC motor controller as a DIY build to replace the original motor controller -- the beauty of this is that VESC runs any motor, so the work I am doing can be reused to TSDZ2, mainly the V2 version where there is no OpenSource firmware for it. This solution of using VESC is future prof, quick and easy to reuse to any other motor / EBike brand.

I am also use a simple DIY EBike board, to read the sensors as the throttle, torque sensor and brake. Then this board will map the torque sensor value to motor current / torque value, that is sent to VESC. This is the same logic on our OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2. This time, I decided to do it in Python an high level language, so will be easy for any software developer to understand and contribute with improvements.

The Bafang motors uses a torque sensor with CANBUS communications but TSDZ2 do it differently. Someone would need to look at TSDZ2 motor controller board circuit to read the torque sensor and then it could be added to this EBike board.

I got the Bafang M500 motor running using a throttle. The code I did, reads the throttle value and maps that value to a motor current value, that I send to VESC using command COMM_SET_CURRENT.



Here is the current EBike board. Black and red wires powers the EBike board from the VESC. Yellow and white wires are UART tx and rx, for communication with VESC.

The throttle has 3 wires. The blue is the throttle output analog signal and the others are GND and 3.3V that powers the throttle. There is one resistor of 100K, as seen on the following schematic:






And this is the current Python code of the EBike board:

[Ianane]

Just in the interests of sharing info and conversation...
Back to overheating and demagnetising on my rig... I don't think I have or if I have it is slight. It it too late for me to do speed tests with no load, I'm up to 3000kms on my motor now but the komoot record of my trip home in December 2021 is near new and I'll post my most recent trips home on the same route... which will be via Strava. The problems with these comparisons are plenty, I know, there's recording app, motivation level, winds, battery charge, weight changes depending on luggage and 'donor bike', and a major one is that I have changed my routes since buying the motor so getting a good 'recent' time is not so recent.
https://www.komoot.com/tour/601301488
https://www.strava.com/activities/7997236415
https://www.strava.com/activities/7564505089

The December Komoot time and August Strava time are nigh identical and they pretty much reflect my moderate to hard effort level.
When the weather tidies itself up here a bit, I'll run this route again with a moderate effort and see where the time ends.

[Piper J3]

I want to install the LM35 temperature sensor. The Wiki doesn’t fully explain how to wire with 8-pin connection. I have OSF with 860C display. Do I leave all the wires still connected from the 8-wire loom and just splice into the three wires indicated? I’m pretty sure this is correct, but would like some conformation before I make commitment.

Thanks in advance…

[Elinx]

... LM35 ...the wires still connected from the 8-wire loom and just splice into the three wires indicated? ....

From the 3 wires just one is exclusive for throttle or temperature sensor. but because you don't use the throttle there is no need to cut this wire. So best is to splice the wires and let them still connected.

[Wapous]

In our fourth year of use, my wife and I have clocked 20,000km each.
That's a total of 40,000km for our two TSDZ2 motors.
You will guess that I do not write to complain about this small motor with heart in the belly.

We use our bikes mainly on the road and encounter climbs quite frequently. The chainring has 42 teeth and we make our gear changes regularly because we use level 1 assistance constantly. We make about 5% in the mountains and on trails for amateurs.

With regular maintenance at the start of the season, we did not experience any major mechanical problems.

I would like to share my thoughts on the mechanical design of the drive axle and accompanying bearings. It is certain that for $1000 more we could have improved tolerances and greater endurance bearings. But when this very low-cost motor is put to good use, it gives you complete satisfaction.




This is a quick overview and each of the photos has a description.

[Elinx]

.....
I would like to share my thoughts on the mechanical design of the drive axle and accompanying bearings. .....

Thanks again for your drawings and your thoughts about the shaft tolerances.
We all know that the BB shaft is a bit smaller than needed.
(Maybe the custom shaft of Ornias will be do a better job)
You advice only to use a shim on one side between the BB shaft and Chainring shaft.
Wouldn't it be better to do this for the other red area as well?

Maybe a shim under the 6902 bearing too? This isn't present in your drawing.
And what is your opinion about the use of extra 6902 bearings (with shim or glue) on the other side of the circlip.

[dameri]

Is the torque sensor bearing (left of the last picture) replaceable?
Thanks for the pictures too.

[endlessolli]

In our fourth year of use, my wife and I have clocked 20,000km each.
That's a total of 40,000km for our two TSDZ2 motors.
You will guess that I do not write to complain about this small motor with heart in the belly.

We use our bikes mainly on the road and encounter climbs quite frequently. The chainring has 42 teeth and we make our gear changes regularly because we use level 1 assistance constantly. We make about 5% in the mountains and on trails for amateurs.

With regular maintenance at the start of the season, we did not experience any major mechanical problems.

I would like to share my thoughts on the mechanical design of the drive axle and accompanying bearings. It is certain that for $1000 more we could have improved tolerances and greater endurance bearings. But when this very low-cost motor is put to good use, it gives you complete satisfaction.

This is a quick overview and each of the photos has a description.

Wow - 20000km in 4 years - that is both impressing for what you & your wife achieved - and what the trusty little TSDZ2s are capable of (despite frequent bashing from some people).
I also can only report positive things about these motors. As we only use them during vacation in the Italian Alps, so ours just have about 2000km each, but also w/o any problems. (Only did the "std." mod of adding 2 bearings to the shaft and recently added heatpads on the wiring side of the motor; also we use the open source firmware mspider65 on mine and latest mbrusa on my wifes with 500W max draw). We also mostly ride in support-levels 1-2, only very briefly using 3 for very steep climbs)

What do you do for "regular maintenance" and what mods did you do (if any)?

[Ianane]

Just in the interests of sharing info and conversation...

https://www.komoot.com/tour/601301488
https://www.strava.com/activities/7997236415
https://www.strava.com/activities/7564505089

The December Komoot time and August Strava time are nigh identical and they pretty much reflect my moderate to hard effort level.
When the weather tidies itself up here a bit, I'll run this route again with a moderate effort and see where the time ends.

https://www.strava.com/activities/8160873181
I've just completed this run, I it will be about as good as I can get without totally blowing my top, with an average speed of 22kph. It seems to be pretty consistant with my best times for this TSDZ2 motor over the year, without any modifications.
As the times are consistant, I'm assuming I haven't cooked the motor so I argue that the 48v 500w motor can handle a large (52) chain ring as long as your legs take up 40% of the effort.

And this post will serve as a good benchmark for after the modifications.

I'm in the process of buying the bits and pieces to do the OSF flash mods, the ST Link, 6 pin cable, heat pads etc and I'll do all this over the x-mas break family life permitting... way outside my comfort zone.

Until then I'm resting the TSDZ2 as it is starting to whine something horrid at times so I reckon it needs a good greasing and I'm riding a stock 500w 48v Bafang rear hub drive with a 30A max controller (I won't be getting my heart rate up to 160bpm on this bike!)

For my 2 cents worth, as much as this is a good little motor for the price, and comes with heaps of advantages for DIY repairs and tuning, the Yamaha/Giant 50nm Core motor is excellent value for money for a buy from your local-bike-shop option with after sales serevice which you can set-and-forget.https://www.strava.com/activities/8031929269

Giant Talon e+ is around AU$ 4,000 and everything works a treat and if it don't you can take it back to your bike shop. This motor is stronger than the 500w 48v TSDZ2 - out-of-the-box. I've tested it on the same routes and it is stronger than a Bosch PerformanceLine CX motor https://www.strava.com/activities/8031929269/matched

and compares favourably to a Shimano Steps E8000. https://www.komoot.com/tour/675360948

TSDZ2 48v 500w is around AU$ 1,400 - plus $300 to $600 for a decent 2nd hand donor bike, or $1000 for new... so about half the price BUT ... Then there's hours of installation and tweaking. So a saving in up-front dollars but a constant drip payment in time. And part of this is the fun and the technical challenge but then there's the complaints about the inconsistant build quality etc.

If you follow the Strava links you can get the times, the Talon e+ is referred to as 'Dori' and the Bosch Performance Line CX bike is refered to as 'Bifur'. I was lent these bikes by friends who have an e-bike hire company and my rich nephew lent me his Merida E-OneSixty with the Shimano Steps E8000. As a really cheap option, I did the same route on an Earth Antebike TX20 folding bike with rear hub motor in 34 minutes. Lent by another friend.
https://www.komoot.com/tour/756195271

[endlessolli]

Is the torque sensor bearing (left of the last picture) replaceable?

Yes, it is. I did it as preventive maintenance when I had to repair the torque sensor (Hall) PCB.
But you have to remove the tiny PCB (desolder). It least I had.

[dameri]

Thank you.

[ornias]

In our fourth year of use, my wife and I have clocked 20,000km each.
That's a total of 40,000km for our two TSDZ2 motors.
You will guess that I do not write to complain about this small motor with heart in the belly.

We use our bikes mainly on the road and encounter climbs quite frequently. The chainring has 42 teeth and we make our gear changes regularly because we use level 1 assistance constantly. We make about 5% in the mountains and on trails for amateurs.

With regular maintenance at the start of the season, we did not experience any major mechanical problems.

I would like to share my thoughts on the mechanical design of the drive axle and accompanying bearings. It is certain that for $1000 more we could have improved tolerances and greater endurance bearings. But when this very low-cost motor is put to good use, it gives you complete satisfaction.




This is a quick overview and each of the photos has a description.

Most of these issues have been known for a few years by now. The issues is not lack of knowhow, the problem is bascially that no one bothered to actually work on getting that shitty axle fixed. The issues are there, in these threads, the fixes are there... Basically all that's needed is that last few stept, but those are the hardest and the most capital extensive.

- Having a new shaft made with H7 tolerances and hardening included is <130 Euro with the right CAD.
- New bearings where about 30 bucks (high quality endurance bearings, including replacing seals for bearings)
- High quality clutch with better torque rating is about 120 Euro.

That makes it about <300 Euros to adjust all primary area's of the shaft/bearing tolerances.
Also: Replacing the seal in the crank with a bearing, nullifies a lot of offset issues between spindle-axle and main-drive-gear.

[endlessolli]

Most of these issues have been known for a few years by now. The issues is not lack of knowhow, the problem is bascially that no one bothered to actually work on getting that shitty axle fixed.

..... and Wapous is one of the people who helped this community over these years to build that knowhow.
So whats your point other than being negative about other peoples contributions??
Also ‚getting the axle fixed‘ is a matter of personal priorities: I will not spend around 100€ on a preventive maintenance spare part for a motor that costs only a little over 200€ - and were the failure rate in many (i.e. my) use cases is pretty low. Because when you do that you will only stumble into the next weakest link, i.e. the known crack sensitivity of the chainring shaft.

Also: Replacing the seal in the crank with a bearing, nullifies a lot of offset issues between spindle-axle and main-drive-gear.

That is only true for the right side. Exzessive play on the left side is caused by the dimensions of quoted needle bearing and the chainring shaft (ontop of the axle) and can not really be compensated by adding an outer bearing on that side

[tosiwic227]

This engine is a compromise of price and performance. And after it wears out, you can just buy a new one. The problem is the relatively low reliability for long-distance travel. I think you can pay a little extra and buy a version with a PEEK gear that Ecocycles is planning to sell, which in theory should be more reliable.

If TSDZ2B with stock firmware, with a press-fit PEEK gear and a side cooling plate will cost $ 100 more, then this will be an interesting offer. Well, you can also replace Chinese bearings with better ones.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/7349296 ... 374004158/

[Wapous]

It's all the fault of a Torque Sensor concept.

Even if personally I have no major problem using this TSDZ2 motor, I would like to talk about its practical application.

The idea of the Torque Sensor that equips the TSDZ2 is brilliant. It is simplicity itself.
Of course, nothing is perfect like everything else.

First, there is friction between the membranes that protect the coils and in the long run they will have to be replaced. But the rotational speed between these two parts is not so high.

Second, this Torque Sensor design does not allow the use of a standard diameter drive shaft. The standard (or frequent) diameter is around 24mm. But the one used in TSDZ2 is only 15mm.


The Torque Sensor designers had to go through these steps as in the photos below….

[Wapous]

Here is how I would machine a new BB shaft using 3 roller bearings.

[pxl666]

is this worthy of time and money ?