Torque sensor options in 2022?

[mckidney]

Hello World,

I want to move away from my PAS as balancing it is too much effort my pedaling cadence.
What are the options in 2022, seems that most of the torque sensors disappeared as eMTB mid drive motors already have them.
Me, I have a heavier rear hub motor bike and want to make pedal assist worth something, since legally I have to have it.

I am looking ideally for chain idler, tension-er.
Also found that plates existed and seemed to disappeared from stock.
I also found this cheap part for the foldable toy:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003617326000.html

[scrambler]

If you have a Hub drive, why don't you use a Bottom Bracket Torque sensor?
These are the best and easiest to use.
Grin has a wide selection
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... nsors.html

The next question of course is does your controller supports Torque sensing input?

[mckidney]

If you have a Hub drive, why don't you use a Bottom Bracket Torque sensor?

I believe my frame does not support them, still waiting on a mechanic to confirm.
Also it is quite a mechanically demanding part and I read couple of testimonies that they are flumsy in terrain.

The next question of course is does your controller supports Torque sensing input?

It should, does have the option in programming and I have no way to verify.

[scrambler]

I believe my frame does not support them, still waiting on a mechanic to confirm.
Also it is quite a mechanically demanding part and I read couple of testimonies that they are flumsy in terrain.

Your frame must have a bottom bracket, the only reason none of these BB Torque sensors would not work would be if it is a completely nonstandard diameter or length which would be very strange.
As for being flimsy, I am not sure where you get that, unless it is about a bad brand. Reputable brands of bottom bracket torque sensor are used all over the place including on some very demanding mountain bikes like the LMX, so no issue there.

It should, does have the option in programming and I have no way to verify.

This is confusing, you say there is an option but no way to verify, so How do you know there is one??
You will need to have info on where the connection is and its characteristics, and how to program it.

[onitubai]

Maybe the perception of flimsiness is from TSDZ2 issues? There was another brand of ebike-marketed torque sensor that had some issues as well that I can't remember the name of at the moment. Otherwise they seem to be alright. Just watch out for the crankarms though, if they're not made by a brand that has experience making regular bike parts then the quality can be pretty random and the material used may resemble old cheese.

[djc165]

I've got a chain tension BeamTS torque sensor which I've had partial success with. It works well in small gears but doesn't register in low gears as not enough tension (I think). It comes with software to program it but I can't get that working yet! BeamTS are now impossible to find now!

I also just got these which work from the chain... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 1802lg630Z
2 of them arrived and I'm going to test them this week...if it works I'll let you know!

[scrambler]

I've got a chain tension BeamTS torque sensor which I've had partial success with. It works well in small gears but doesn't register in low gears as not enough tension (I think). It comes with software to program it but I can't get that working yet! BeamTS are now impossible to find now!

I also just got these which work from the chain... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 1802lg630Z
2 of them arrived and I'm going to test them this week...if it works I'll let you know!

The BEAMTS was unfortunately discontinued years ago. This is Why I ended up recreating my own for my bike with a nonstandard bottom bracket
I posted about it in the thread below if interested
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67086&p=1693068#p1687815

That said I will be VERY interested to read about your experience with the device you referred to as I had never seen or heard of it so far and it would be a much easier one to implement for people with a nonstandard BB!!

I would also be interested to know if there is any way to calibrate the Zero and max output as depending on the chain deviation, the effort on it will change...

Please Keep us posted

[djc165]

Cheers Scrambler,
I was considering doing exactly what you've done with a small 's' shape load sensor and amplifier etc but found this one in Aliexpress! I'll let you know if I get a result!

[scrambler]

Thanks

The side problem with Chain tension-based Torque sensing is that to be consistent, the bike ideally needs to have a single rear sprocket, so the deviation created by the sensor to pick up tension is always the same.
If and IGH cannot be used for gearing and there are different rear cogs, the only way to make it work would be with an intermediate wheel between the rear cog and the front chain ring, and place the sensor between the intermediate wheel and the front chain ring.

Example below with a different type of sensor, but same logic

[zorbas]

Looking for answers to my current problem, I found this discussion and I find the title quite suitable. I hope it's Ok if I use it
I am investigating the possibility to electrify a gravel bike with a "large" bottom bracket cups.

Do you know if any BB torque sensor for BB standards like BB86 ? So far I cannot find any. I am familiar with the BSA type like the eRider T9 only but it won't fit and there are no adaptors (that I am aware of) available for this size.

[scrambler]

Have you contacted Grin and asked if they know of one for 86mm Bottom Bracket if that is what you meant by BB86.
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... nsors.html

[zorbas]

Grintech might have an answer. I order my equipments from them most of the time and they currently don't sell what I need. For the moment, I am asking here.

I couldn't find anything using google either so I am hoping others might have done the same research more successfully or might have the final answer already. There are a lot of knowlegdgeable and expert people in this forum.

[mckidney]

It should, does have the option in programming and I have no way to verify.

This is confusing, you say there is an option but no way to verify, so How do you know there is one??
You will need to have info on where the connection is and its characteristics, and how to program it.

I went through the connector specs and went through the programming and it does allow PAS to be configured to be Torque based. But I did not find references to it and do not have one to try - so hence me leaving soft yes instead of the other options.

[mckidney]

Thanks

The side problem with Chain tension-based Torque sensing is that to be consistent, the bike ideally needs to have a single rear sprocket, so the deviation created by the sensor to pick up tension is always the same.

That is why I am considering it, I have a single speed sprocket and sealed cups. Already have a top and bottom chain support. Top being classic guide and bottom being a rubber wheel.

I found a lot f guides and old products and when searching for stock and current information the amount of information drops drastically. Hence me asking for help I like all the post so far

[E-HP]

Looking for answers to my current problem, I found this discussion and I find the title quite suitable. I hope it's Ok if I use it
I am investigating the possibility to electrify a gravel bike with a "large" bottom bracket cups.

Do you know if any BB torque sensor for BB standards like BB86 ? So far I cannot find any. I am familiar with the BSA type like the eRider T9 only but it won't fit and there are no adaptors (that I am aware of) available for this size.

Can you provide any information about your bike (model, year, etc.) or pics of the bottom bracket area?

[zorbas]

I do not have additional information. The question is « are there any Bottom Bracket torque sensor for BB86 ? »

[E-HP]

I do not have additional information. The question is « are there any Bottom Bracket torque sensor for BB86 ? »

You probably read through this post; couldn't tell if the adapter for the BB86 also works for the BB92:
https://www.empoweredcycles.com/blogs/n ... 0inventory.

[stancecoke]

There's a collection of infos about various torquesensors in the german Pedelecforum wiki:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/wiki/doku.p ... ntsensoren

You can use google translate.

My suggestion is the Phoebe Liu Shop at aliexpress:
https://phoebeevparts.de.aliexpress.com ... 17038.html

From my experience, the problem is not the sensor itself, but the controller, that can't deal with the sensors signals, if you don't want to have something ugly like the CA on your bike (sorry Justin )

Therefore I started to write my own firmware for my controllers

regards
stancecoke

[zorbas]

I do not have additional information. The question is « are there any Bottom Bracket torque sensor for BB86 ? »

You probably read through this post; couldn't tell if the adapter for the BB86 also works for the BB92:
https://www.empoweredcycles.com/blogs/n ... 0inventory.

Thanks for the suggestion. That was an interesting information. Unfortunately the BB86 would not fit into this adaptor. Plus the adaptor is made for bafang bottom bracket, not for the Threaded BSA type Torque sensors like the erider, NCTE..
It seems all BB sensors are threaded and BSA type.

[zorbas]

There's a collection of infos about various torquesensors in the german Pedelecforum wiki:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/wiki/doku.p ... ntsensoren

You can use google translate.

My suggestion is the Phoebe Liu Shop at aliexpress:
https://phoebeevparts.de.aliexpress.com ... 17038.html

From my experience, the problem is not the sensor itself, but the controller, that can't deal with the sensors signals, if you don't want to have something ugly like the CA on your bike (sorry Justin )

Therefore I started to write my own firmware for my controllers

regards
stancecoke

Thanks I went there and couldn't find anything else than threaded BSA type bottom bracket sensors either. Interesting forum however. I will keep reading.

[E-HP]

I do not have additional information. The question is « are there any Bottom Bracket torque sensor for BB86 ? »

You probably read through this post; couldn't tell if the adapter for the BB86 also works for the BB92:
https://www.empoweredcycles.com/blogs/n ... 0inventory.

Thanks for the suggestion. That was an interesting information. Unfortunately the BB86 would not fit into this adaptor. Plus the adaptor is made for bafang bottom bracket, not for the Threaded BSA type Torque sensors like the erider, NCTE..
It seems all BB sensors are threaded and BSA type.

I've seen some torque sensing bottom brackets that fit into standard 68/73 and 100mm shells, so figure that an adapter that works with the bafang motors, that fit the same style bottom bracket, would work for installing one of them. Maybe not, but seems like with the adapters, the 100mm sensor might fit.

[zorbas]

BB I've seen some torque sensing bottom brackets that fit into standard 68/73 and 100mm shells, so figure that an adapter that works with the bafang motors, that fit the same style bottom bracket, would work for installing one of them. Maybe not, but seems like with the adapters, the 100mm sensor might fit.

Most Torque sensors will fit 68, 73, 100mm end even longer. This is not only about the length. It's about the size of the cup (the diameter of the BB shell) and how the BB it is mounted to the frame as well (ex: BSA are threaded, PF41 are press fit). The adaptor for BB30, PF30 will work for eriders for example, because the lenght of the shell they are fitting into are compatible with the BSA standards (68/73). The size of the cup is reduced thanks to the adapter and the adapter is threaded.

The BB92 adaptor that is proposed by empowered cycles is ment for BB PF41, so far so good. But it will not fit all BB lengths and will work with shell between 89.5mm- 92mm. They pretend it is a BSA/JIS adaptor but it's not. The JS/BSA BB's are threaded, and the adapter is not.
It was developped to allow a Bafang BBS* middle motor. The Bafang motor has it's own lock ring (M33) that will fit inside the adapter and will allow the locking of the Bafang BB between each side of the BB shell (left and drive side).

If I can use the original Bafang M33 and the lenght of the BB shell of the bike I consider was between 89.5mm- 92mm, it might have worked (still to be confirmed). But I am talking about a BB86.

Hence my original question "are there any BB86 (PF41) torque sensor"? I fear it's not the case.
I sent a message to Grintech to see what can be done but I fear that I will have to consider electrifying another bike (or using a simple PAS).

[E-HP]

BB I've seen some torque sensing bottom brackets that fit into standard 68/73 and 100mm shells, so figure that an adapter that works with the bafang motors, that fit the same style bottom bracket, would work for installing one of them. Maybe not, but seems like with the adapters, the 100mm sensor might fit.

Most Torque sensors will fit 68, 73, 100mm end even longer. This is not only about the length. It's about the size of the cup (the diameter of the BB shell) and how the BB it is mounted to the frame as well (ex: BSA are threaded, PF41 are press fit). The adaptor for BB30, PF30 will work for eriders for example, because the lenght of the shell they are fitting into are compatible with the BSA standards (68/73). The size of the cup is reduced thanks to the adapter and the adapter is threaded.

The BB92 adaptor that is proposed by empowered cycles is ment for BB PF41, so far so good. But it will not fit all BB lengths and will work with shell between 89.5mm- 92mm. They pretend it is a BSA/JIS adaptor but it's not. The JS/BSA BB's are threaded, and the adapter is not.
It was developped to allow a Bafang BBS* middle motor. The Bafang motor has it's own lock ring (M33) that will fit inside the adapter and will allow the locking of the Bafang BB between each side of the BB shell (left and drive side).

If I can use the original Bafang M33 and the lenght of the BB shell of the bike I consider was between 89.5mm- 92mm, it might have worked (still to be confirmed). But I am talking about a BB86.

Hence my original question "are there any BB86 (PF41) torque sensor"? I fear it's not the case.
I sent a message to Grintech to see what can be done but I fear that I will have to consider electrifying another bike (or using a simple PAS).

Ya, seems like custom machining, since the adapters from the article would need to extended another 7mm on each side to accommodate the type of 100mm unit I was thinking of, and that might also create some additional stress moving the bearings outwards.

[stancecoke]

But I am talking about a BB86

I simply cut the BSA threadened bottom bracket tube from a scrap frame and pressed it into the press fit frame
OK, I needed a lathe to get the outside diameter to the right size.

regards
stancecoke

[E-HP]

But I am talking about a BB86

I simply cut the BSA threadened bottom bracket tube from a scrap frame and pressed it into the press fit frame
OK, I needed a lathe to get the outside diameter to the right size.

regards
stancecoke

Ingenious.