Monzilla - BURNED IN LIPO FIRE AUGUST 11

[Floont]

oy..

Sorry to hear the terrible news.. ...
..

Thanks, man.

[bowlofsalad]

What a bummer, sorry for your loss.

Sadly, a lot of people shy away from controversy and refrain from asking serious and important questions about events that have transpired surrounding devastation such as yours.

I have some questions for you though, concerning the occurrence of your fire, it would be of benefit to myself and others if you could answer these questions honestly.

Could you explain the series of events leading up to the fire? Things I am looking for are bike crashes, plugging in a charger, cell checking involving something like a multimeter or a celllog. Anything and everything may be of use.

Where were you when you realized things were on fire?

What did you do when you realized something was on fire?

Did you have any sort of linked fire alarm system through out your home? Linked fire alarms mean if any single fire alarm detects a fire in one place, all connected fire alarms sound.

Did you have a filled and tested fire extinguisher somewhere in the close vicinity of where you'd park and charge your ebike?

Do you think your disaster might have been avoided had you been using a different chemistry other than lipo?

Who did you buy your charger from? I am specifically curious about how you know that the charger was the exact cause of the fire, my guess would be that was what the fire department thinks, but maybe you saw it light on fire and start burning other things.

What advice would you give to others beyond being aware of the dangers of cheap chargers and lipo for those who currently use ebikes and those looking to get into ebikes?

I suppose those are some of the more important questions I might have. Please, do not take offense to these questions. I ask these questions from an educational perspective so that everyone including myself might learn from histories mistakes.

I hope things are getting better for you, floont.

[amberwolf]

PS My cat just got out of the animal hospital with tongue and throat burns and injuries due to smoke inhalation. This hobby is not just worth it.

I'm really really glad the cat did not die in the fire! (though my house fire a few months ago was not ebike-related, I lost all my dogs to it, so I could guess how you feel about things now).

[Chalo]

PS My cat just got out of the animal hospital with tongue and throat burns and injuries due to smoke inhalation. This hobby is not just worth it.

I'm really really glad the cat did not die in the fire!

I thought the same thing. It's hard to lose your stuff, but it's just stuff. Friends are non-replaceable.

[Floont]

What a bummer, sorry for your loss.

Sadly, a lot of people shy away from controversy and refrain from asking serious and important questions about events that have transpired surrounding devastation such as yours.

I have some questions for you though, concerning the occurrence of your fire, it would be of benefit to myself and others if you could answer these questions honestly.

Could you explain the series of events leading up to the fire? Things I am looking for are bike crashes, plugging in a charger, cell checking involving something like a multimeter or a celllog. Anything and everything may be of use.

Where were you when you realized things were on fire?

My wife heard a crackling sound in the garage and checked and saw the fire in the garage. There are no smoke detectors in the garage.

What did you do when you realized something was on fire?

I tried to get over to it with a fire extinguisher, but the smoke and heat were too much. I ran outside with the fire extinguisher thinking that I could break a window and battle it from out side. But the fire had grown too big for that action. It was beyond a home fire extinguisher and professionals needed to be called, which we immediately did.

Did you have any sort of linked fire alarm system through out your home? Linked fire alarms mean if any single fire alarm detects a fire in one place, all connected fire alarms sound.

No we have one single CO detector and smoke detector in the center of the house. There was no detection in the garage... a big mistake may a say.

Did you have a filled and tested fire extinguisher somewhere in the close vicinity of where you'd park and charge your ebike?

Yes, but I couldn't get to it quick enough. The fire spread so quickly.

Do you think your disaster might have been avoided had you been using a different chemistry other than lipo?

YES

Who did you buy your charger from? I am specifically curious about how you know that the charger was the exact cause of the fire, my guess would be that was what the fire department thinks, but maybe you saw it light on fire and start burning other things.

It was an Alloy shell charger from BMSbattery.

What advice would you give to others beyond being aware of the dangers of cheap chargers and lipo for those who currently use ebikes and those looking to get into ebikes?

Don't use LIpo and if you must balance them frequently. Avoid buying anything form BMSbattery

I suppose those are some of the more important questions I might have. Please, do not take offense to these questions. I ask these questions from an educational perspective so that everyone including myself might learn from histories mistakes.

No offense taken. I don't want anyone to go through what I just went through.

I hope things are getting better for you, floont.

Things will be better in several months after much grief, toil and hard work.

FA

[el_walto]

I hope members here have finally reached the consensus to never bulk charge lipo without a cell level HVC.

[pdf]

So sorry.

You will come through it. No loss of life so count yourself lucky and try not to obsess. Learn and move on to do good things. Thoughts with you.

[arkmundi]

I hope members here have finally reached the consensus to never bulk charge lipo without a cell level HVC.

No, I hope that the consensus is that there are safer battery chemistries for our application than LiPo - LiFePO4 for instance. The very slight drawback of a bit more heavy, less energy dense, is a very small price to pay for never having to risk a fire. Floont, thanks for posting your experience and wishing you the very best for your recovery in life!

[hjns]

That is really terrible.

I hope you had a good insurance so that you can start rebuilding at least some of what you had. But the biggest loss are those irreplaceble things that no money can buy. Happy that there were no casualties.

All the best!

[Ykick]

Upgraded from 30s2p to 35s2p Turnigy Lipo yesterday. Now I'm running it at about 146VDC maximum. Speed and torque increased, of course.

FA

Bulk charging 35S? And you checked 35 cell voltages before every bulk charge?

Sorry about your disaster and thanks for sharing....

[Bill Nye the science guy]

when the fire starts, if the charger were turned off would the fire go out or is it going to continue.

just thinking.. fire alarm-furnace relay- disconnect charger power.

so sorry man. those lipos givith and they takith away.

[kfong]

Once a lipo fire starts, the only way to contain it is to smoother it with a fire blanket, sand, ect. Not sure if a fire extingusher would actually work. I have not seen anyone to date put out a lipo fire with an extingusher. Someone needs to do this and post it. My impression is the fire will continue until all the electrolyte burns off.

[dnmun]

no need for you guys to pile on. there are a lot of self righteous people on this board who make it a point to say that using a BMS is stupid. i don't see you guys lecturing those people for their mistake.

how many of you people use a BMS either? and then you wanna lecture him about how he didn't do like you? give him a break.

[cal3thousand]

I commend him for having the bravery to share his experiences. Don't knock him for helping us. He could have been quiet about it and avoided any bashing that way too.

[-dg]

There is a certain perverse beauty in the Roadmaster Mt. Fury, because it's an utterly pure expression of Bicycle-Shaped Objectivity. ...

Damn, I wish I had written that rant. Pure win.

[cwah]

did you charge without bms?

[friendly1uk]

did you charge without bms?

The common denominator in every fire here is not lipo, it is having no bms.

Think about how much money we save not using one. I reckon that is about nothing. Now weigh that es wide saving against the es wide cost of not using one. Its a few houses, vehicles, outbuildings and lots of smoke damage. The currant trend leads towards someones life but so far it's just pets.

It's not even worth talking about. Where are the proper battery packs in these fire threads. What sort of dick spends 10% of his waking hours nursing batteries to save a few hours wages. What kind of dick would listen to these people instead of professionals. With dicks of this magnitude about, do these fires come as any surprise?



I wonder where the OP got the idea that it would be ok? who actually burnt the house down (if that is to be believed)

[gwhy!]

battery fires can happen with ANY chemistry... even the small AA chargers\batteries can cause a fire.. treat any battery chemistry with respect no matter what size or chemistry.

Floont, hope you get your life back on track in the shortest possible time and without much hassle. All the best and thanks for sharing.

[Tinto]

Floont, hope you get your life back on track in the shortest possible time and without much hassle. All the best and thanks for sharing.

That sums it up from me too.
I wish you the best moving forward Floont.

[pdf]

did you charge without bms?

The common denominator in every fire here is not lipo, it is having no bms.

Think about how much money we save not using one. I reckon that is about nothing. Now weigh that es wide saving against the es wide cost of not using one. Its a few houses, vehicles, outbuildings and lots of smoke damage. The currant trend leads towards someones life but so far it's just pets.

It's not even worth talking about. Where are the proper battery packs in these fire threads. What sort of dick spends 10% of his waking hours nursing batteries to save a few hours wages. What kind of dick would listen to these people instead of professionals. With dicks of this magnitude about, do these fires come as any surprise?



I wonder where the OP got the idea that it would be ok? who actually burnt the house down (if that is to be believed)

I will have to beg to differ. From a scientific point of view, it is, as far as I know, always LiPO. There have been fires reported with resting LiPO right on this board. In which case, the presence or absence of a BMS is irrelevant. I have had a BMS failure with LiFePO4 that could have resulted in the exact same scenario. The voltage monitor for a cell failed and it was reporting the cell voltage as low when it was not. In the end, only a single cell was damaged and was replaced but it was charged several times. In this system (which was in a small car), you could easily access the cell level voltages on a monitor and that is how I noticed the problem. If not for that, I don't think I would have been able to figure out what was wrong until much later. I personally feel that a BMS does give an added layer of protection, but it is not fool proof.

I personally feel that RC LiPO should be treated as though a battery fire is imminent, even with a BMS, because the electronics fail and if you overcharge a cell, it is highly likely to result in a fire. Just like assuming a gun is always loaded. There is, with the absence of Fetcher and Goodman, no plug and play solution to a BMS with an arbitrary number of LiPO cells. At a minimum, you are likely to have to custom fabricate a balance adapter fro m your cells to the BMS card. If there were a reasonably priced plug and play solution, many more people would use it. As it is, there will be more dances with the devil and I for one appreciate this guy coming forward with his story to further emphasize the potential significant danger of this scenario; bulk charging LiPO and running without a BMS.

And I don't think being careless makes you a dick. It makes you a human. There are any number of people on this web site advocating pro/con LiPO, pro/coon bulk charging, pro/con BMS. Many of them with years of experience who will be quick to point that out. So how do you figure out in this small universe who is the professional?

I think one poster said it best; LiFePO4 is diesel, LiPO is nitromethane. Use with appropriate caution or leave it alone.

[bowlofsalad]

And I don't think being careless makes you a dick. It makes you a human. There are any number of people on this web site advocating pro/con LiPO, pro/coon bulk charging, pro/con BMS. Many of them with years of experience who will be quick to point that out. So how do you figure out in this small universe who is the professional?

That is one of the more frustrating details in life. We all have what works well for us, personal preference and opinion. I've never started going into an idea to find that there was a complete and confident consensus among everyone with lots of experience with something. Lots of people think their techniques and styles are nothing short of brilliant or perfect and things should only be done their way (I may be guilty of this at times). The only areas that I'd sometimes prefer people sway away from that kind of idea involves situations where high danger is involved. There is a lot to learn concerning ebikes. It would be better if those learning didn't have the dangers of lipo sitting in their lap. If someone like ykick had a class that they were teaching to personally educate individuals on lipo who had never messed with batteries before, I am sure we'd be better off.

As hard as this may be to stomach, I'd be surprised if nobody has died in a fire related to lipo.

[arkmundi]

I will have to beg to differ. From a scientific point of view, it is, as far as I know, always LiPO. There have been fires reported with resting LiPO right on this board. In which case, the presence or absence of a BMS is irrelevant..... I think one poster said it best; LiFePO4 is diesel, LiPO is nitromethane. Use with appropriate caution or leave it alone.

LiPo evolved in the RC culture of the highest power density per weight possible, because that's what their application demanded. Then some ebikers, perhaps on this very forum, had what they probably thought was a brilliant idea, of packing them up into larger packs to move their contraption around on the roads. Then a cult following emerged, again, promoted here and elsewhere, by an industry that saw its business expanding.

But all the while, automotive grade lithium-ion battery R&D continued at a rapid pace and we have other lithium-ion chemistries available for our use, safer and more appropriate to the application.

I had hoped that Floont's precautionary tale might provide one of those moments for a new consensus on this invaluable forum to simply say NO MORE LIPO, because of the fire risks involved and that it is UNNECESSARY. The audience here is not just the experienced, but the inexperienced as well, hoping for sage advice in their builds, whether for sport & recreation, or as a transportation alternative. It is for their benefit. Please choose one the many available LiFePO4 (or similar) batteries available, designed for and tested for the automotive industry, where safety matters, a lot.

[gwhy!]

I will have to beg to differ. From a scientific point of view, it is, as far as I know, always LiPO. There have been fires reported with resting LiPO right on this board. In which case, the presence or absence of a BMS is irrelevant..... I think one poster said it best; LiFePO4 is diesel, LiPO is nitromethane. Use with appropriate caution or leave it alone.

LiPo evolved in the RC culture of the highest power density per weight possible, because that's what their application demanded. Then some ebikers, perhaps on this very forum, had what they probably thought was a brilliant idea, of packing them up into larger packs to move their contraption around on the roads. Then a cult following emerged, again, promoted here and elsewhere, by an industry that saw its business expanding.

But all the while, automotive grade lithium-ion battery R&D continued at a rapid pace and we have other lithium-ion chemistries available for our use, safer and more appropriate to the application.

I had hoped that Floont's precautionary tale might provide one of those moments for a new consensus on this invaluable forum to simply say NO MORE LIPO, because of the fire risks involved and that it is UNNECESSARY. The audience here is not just the experienced, but the inexperienced as well, hoping for sage advice in their builds, whether for sport & recreation, or as a transportation alternative. It is for their benefit. Please choose one the many available LiFePO4 (or similar) batteries available, designed for and tested for the automotive industry, where safety matters, a lot.

As I said before its irrelevant what chemistry you have it can all start a fire.. I have had NiCads explode and burst into flames whilst charging ( and know many people that is has also happened to , this was with fast chargers in the field so no real damage done) , and these were 1.2v 1ah C cells ( and yes it was a long time ago ) , I have also dealt with standby battery/chargers failures in electronic equipment that on very,very rare occasions have caused fires in my place of work . Lipo when they go, will be a lot more devastating due to the size, power density and the performance of them. There have been reports of lifepo4 cells exploding for no apparent reason you only need to surf the web a little to find that all sorts of chemistries can burst into flames ( but 99% of the time there will be a underlying problem that have caused it ) and battery fires are not always related to the e-bike crowd. Just look and see what will happen if you put a spanner across the terminals of a 12v 40ah lead acid battery and put some flammable material near by, it will start a very nice big fire in no time ...

[Ypedal]

Hell.. even jaguars go up regularly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhmrdjpWGBM

[pdf]

As I said before its irrelevant what chemistry you have it can all start a fire.. I have had NiCads explode and burst into flames whilst charging ( and know many people that is has also happened to , this was with fast chargers in the field so no real damage done) , and these were 1.2v 1ah C cells ( and yes it was a long time ago ) , I have also dealt with standby battery/chargers failures in electronic equipment that on very,very rare occasions have caused fires in my place of work . Lipo when they go, will be a lot more devastating due to the size, power density and the performance of them. There have been reports of lifepo4 cells exploding for no apparent reason you only need to surf the web a little to find that all sorts of chemistries can burst into flames ( but 99% of the time there will be a underlying problem that have caused it ) and battery fires are not always related to the e-bike crowd. Just look and see what will happen if you put a spanner across the terminals of a 12v 40ah lead acid battery and put some flammable material near by, it will start a very nice big fire in no time ...

No, battery type is not irrelevant. LiCo oxide decomposes at a much lower temperature than any other lithium chemistry, 150 deg C. LiFePO4 decomposes at 310 deg C. Then atmospheric oxygen is not required to support combustion and the fire is self-sustaining, catalytic, and very hot. It is simply not true that chemistry is irrelevant. All batteries can burn. Some much easier than others. It is a fact. For the above, see Journal of Power Sources, Volume 226, 15 March 2013, Pages 272–288. But we have to disabuse ourselves of the notion that "all batteries burn so therefore the potential hazard is equal". It just isn't. All alkanes burn also but I am a lot more careful with gasoline than kerosene for a good reason.

Also, power density and and performance are irrelevent in determining the damage of a a fire. If the polymer starts to burn and the temp causes decomposition of the electrolyte, you are going to have a hell of a fire. It is not related to the battery performance directly but to the nature and quantity of the electrolyte and polymer. For example, I can achieve the same C rate with a lower performing battery chemistry by increasing the battery capacity (more amp-hours).