A Summary Letter for the ES Community

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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by parabellum » Aug 11, 2011 11:16 am

dequinox wrote:1- A member initiate fee: The sphere allows people to lurk and register as members, post in general discussion areas and view all threads, faqs and wikis for free. IF they want to be allowed to post in the more technical threads (for ex. ebike technical or non-hub motor drives etc) they could pay a modest ($5 I'm thinking) one time to gain access to those areas. This system would provide two advantages that I see: It keeps morons, shillers (sp?), and trolls from clogging up the more "important" threads... and it provides funding for ES.
How do you want Naem from Pakistan paying this (or any other) fee if he gets technical question in technical forum :?:
I see economical and technical problem here.

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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by oatnet » Aug 11, 2011 11:32 am

justin_le wrote:As for ebike independence day, that is every day my friend! If people care about exact timelines, it was Saturday Aug 6th that methods et. al. achieved an agreement in principle with Trevor that the site be returned, Sunday Aug 7th that actual terms were hammered out, Monday Aug 8th that the document was signed and official, and just yesterday, Aug9th, that the final ownership transfer of the forum was completed and all keys passed over. That's when YPedal busted out the wine! So perhaps the day to go down.
Justin "et. al.", thank you for making the deal to save E:S, the members involved demonstrated true leadership qualities. Shrewd that the terms of the agreement specifies no ads, it protects both Trevor and E:S. I feel bad for Trevor - he's just been through the kind of life-lesson we all know and dread, and probably started this with the best of intentions.

And even though I was merely a member of the Peanut Gallery for this event, I'd vote vote for 8/8/11 as E:S Independance Day, partly because that is when the agreement was signed to make it official, and partly because I like the date - in asian cultures '8' is considered a lucky number.

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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by dequinox » Aug 11, 2011 12:18 pm

parabellum wrote:
dequinox wrote:1- A member initiate fee: The sphere allows people to lurk and register as members, post in general discussion areas and view all threads, faqs and wikis for free. IF they want to be allowed to post in the more technical threads (for ex. ebike technical or non-hub motor drives etc) they could pay a modest ($5 I'm thinking) one time to gain access to those areas. This system would provide two advantages that I see: It keeps morons, shillers (sp?), and trolls from clogging up the more "important" threads... and it provides funding for ES.
How do you want Naem from Pakistan paying this (or any other) fee if he gets technical question in technical forum :?:
I see economical and technical problem here.
I don't thinks its too far of a stretch to say that someone can sponsor him. I mentioned a sliding scale too I thought. There are members on here that really enthralled with what he's doing (myself included), and I'm sure he would be sponsored about 80 times over...
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 11, 2011 12:37 pm

dequinox wrote:Ok (Justin_le hope you're readin' at some point) this is about the most serious place I could think of to post this idea regarding the future of funding ES. It's not really my idea, just a combination of ideas that clicked in my head a little while ago.

1- A member initiate fee: The sphere allows people to lurk and register as members, post in general discussion areas and view all threads, faqs and wikis for free. IF they want to be allowed to post in the more technical threads (for ex. ebike technical or non-hub motor drives etc) they could pay a modest ($5 I'm thinking) one time to gain access to those areas. This system would provide two advantages that I see: It keeps morons, shillers (sp?), and trolls from clogging up the more "important" threads... and it provides funding for ES.

NOW- Specifically these member fees would be put into a long term CD of some kind (no I'm not a business/accounting major) with a respectable ROR and a low low risk. Withdrawals from this fund only occur for purposes related to site maintenance, upgrades, and the like. All accrued interest on the balance would go to Justin_le for his contributions in saving and maintaining the 'sphere. He could use it for research, helping out low-funded ebikers, or whatever. The main idea is to develop a bulk sum of capital to work with. It doesn't seem like $5 apiece would raise much of a principal, but take a look at the "members" link next time you get a chance. There is currently a pool of 11729 users. I don't know how active all of these are, but even if just 2000 of us pay the member fee of $5 that raises a healthy $10k start.

This 1-time fee could be combined with a yearly membership fee of like a dollar...b/c that helps keep people who are invested and active around. Lazy trolls aren't usually going to pay a dollar let alone $5 just so they can stick around to torment people. They do it where they can do it for free. An account kept current would also be able to update this wiki T****r had the idea of starting up. I REALLY like the wiki idea and I think it could go far to help expand on what this site can do. No he can't sue us for stealing the wiki idea... who doesn't have a wiki these days?

2-Merchandising: Many of you have said it... start selling ES-themed stuff. I don't think an online store would hurt anyone a bit. We'd need someone to take care of that part of the business, and they'd earn a commission for their time. I know you're probably a bit busy to take that on Justin! Another thing is I'd recommend hiring someone (or selecting a qualified volunteer) to design this merchandise. A new logo would be nice...

No.

3-CL the for sale ads. This is an idea Justin had in the "open letter" thread, and I think that vendors should really be paying to sell things on the 'sphere. Doesn't have to an astronomical %, esp. since they throw good deals our way quite often. Just a fair cost-and-then-some covering percentage. Only paid-fee users could post for sale ads (perhaps buy things also...though that should prob. be free), and vendors would have a slightly higher registering fee that would enable them to post in the for-sale new section. Or something along these lines...the idea is flexible and thats what I like about it.


These are some of the ways I think we could make ES independent without going to ads of any kind. This keeps the sphere net-neutral too I think. It might filter out people who sneer at paying a membership fee, but lets face it if they are that cheap then perhaps they wouldn't contribute much anyways... (we could even have a sliding fee scale for members who are not-so-well off on approval).

My 3 cents...sort of ...those of you who contributed to these ideas already know who you are...thanks for them I just compiled them...a little.

Ok 2 am time for bed!!


No.

Just an option to donate if you wish is going to give Justin far more, and Justin would NEVER want somebody to have to pay to participate in a technical forum. I would never have become a member here just on principal if this were the setup when I first discovered ES.

Just donate if you want, and buy your stuff from Justin.

Did anyone else find it interesting that other sellers here wouldn't make a stand for ES, aside from Justin? Shows you who is here to make money, and who is here to support the revolution. Makes things pretty clear for who is here to shuffle boxes, and who is here for a cause.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by parabellum » Aug 11, 2011 1:13 pm

+1

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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by dequinox » Aug 11, 2011 1:29 pm

I'm not the only one who has mentioned dues as a possible source of revenue...and I'm certainly not here to push boxes. I'm a student dude... I don't expect my ideas to become reality, they're just ideas. Others have said it as well: donations can be unreliable. The reality is that Benevolent Dictator formula has a limited lifetime. I really do hope that people continue to donate, and it is my attitude that when I can spare cash to put some into this site. Sustainability was my goal with those ideas... that's all.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by amberwolf » Aug 11, 2011 2:22 pm

oatnet wrote:And even though I was merely a member of the Peanut Gallery for this event, I'd vote vote for 8/8/11 as E:S Independance Day, partly because that is when the agreement was signed to make it official, and partly because I like the date - in asian cultures '8' is considered a lucky number.
That must be why Hachi is such a lucky dog. :)
dequinox wrote:1- A member initiate fee: The sphere allows people to lurk and register as members, post in general discussion areas and view all threads, faqs and wikis for free. IF they want to be allowed to post in the more technical threads (for ex. ebike technical or non-hub motor drives etc) they could pay a modest ($5 I'm thinking) one time to gain access to those areas. This system would provide two advantages that I see: It keeps morons, shillers (sp?), and trolls from clogging up the more "important" threads... and it provides funding for ES.
Negative. Even the "morons, shillers, and trolls" occasionally prod a good idea into existence. ;)

Besides, we made this knowledge for free, and I'd like to keep it that way. Sure, they can still *read* them, but to pay just to participate? No.

If it were me just joining up, for instance, in protest I would post only in the other sections, and quote posts from those threads I wanted to reply to in new copies of those threads I'd create in the non-fee sections, either defeating the system or forcing the mods to delete my contributions. I'm not the only one that would do that, I'm sure. ;) I would still do it even if someone offered to pay the fee for me, as I'd refuse that and continue my own way, unless someone felt like kicking me out for doing it. (and if they didn't, they'd have to let anyone else that felt like it do that, too, which would eventually collapse the membership system)


This 1-time fee could be combined with a yearly membership fee of like a dollar...b/c that helps keep people who are invested and active around. Lazy trolls aren't usually going to pay a dollar let alone $5 just so they can stick around to torment people.
Again, no.


I fully agree that it would keep at least a tiny portion of the trolls/spammers/etc away from those sections requiring such fees, but the principle of the thing is that we just fought to keep this forum free, and it would also keep away some people from it just based on that principle.


2-Merchandising: Many of you have said it... start selling ES-themed stuff.
The online store with ES-related merchandise would be a fine way to help the site pay for itself.


3-CL the for sale ads. This is an idea Justin had in the "open letter" thread, and I think that vendors should really be paying to sell things on the 'sphere. Doesn't have to an astronomical %, esp. since they throw good deals our way quite often. Just a fair cost-and-then-some covering percentage. Only paid-fee users could post for sale ads (perhaps buy things also...though that should prob. be free), and vendors would have a slightly higher registering fee that would enable them to post in the for-sale new section.
I disagree about that, too because it again involves registering fees. Plus it still violates the spirit of agreeing not to generate ad revenue, by charging for the ability to post ads, even if not for the display of each ad.


As for vendors paying to sell things here, at all? Well, I think some might no longer post their deals here first, like they do now, before they make them public elsewhere. Some smaller vendors (one-man cottage industries) might not be able to afford it at all, if their margins are small enough (or negative, as they are in some cases I know of).


It might filter out people who sneer at paying a membership fee, but lets face it if they are that cheap then perhaps they wouldn't contribute much anyways... (we could even have a sliding fee scale for members who are not-so-well off on approval).
You never know about contributions, simply based on attitudes toward membership fees. I'll gladly contribute toward any place that freely allows discussions of what I'm interested in (meaning they dont' charge fees and they dont' censor and aren't ad-supported, etc), but if they do any of those things I'm not interested. It's not about the money, because if I was rich I'd do the same thing. ;) it's principle. I know from things said here on ES in the last week or two that I am not the only one.


Really, I seriously think the community here is selfless enough overall to donate to support ES, if not just giving money, then to buy merchandise that supports it. :)

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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by number1cruncher » Aug 11, 2011 2:49 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Did anyone else find it interesting that other sellers here wouldn't make a stand for ES, aside from Justin? Shows you who is here to make money, and who is here to support the revolution. Makes things pretty clear for who is here to shuffle boxes, and who is here for a cause.
Yes, I erased all my e-bikekit.com references in my link. I thought Jason would have helped in this matter, I guess not... :| As you say, it became very apprent who is here to make money and who is here to support the revolution.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by Joseph C. » Aug 11, 2011 2:55 pm

liveforphysics wrote:
dequinox wrote:Did anyone else find it interesting that other sellers here wouldn't make a stand for ES, aside from Justin? Shows you who is here to make money, and who is here to support the revolution. Makes things pretty clear for who is here to shuffle boxes, and who is here for a cause.
Not quite, as far as I can tell, one other vendor offered to donate to keep the forum up and running.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by TylerDurden » Aug 11, 2011 3:07 pm

You can be sure other players were moving in the background.

I did not hear any declarations that they would maintain and defend our autonomy.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by oatnet » Aug 11, 2011 3:07 pm

Just an option to donate if you wish is going to give Justin far more, and Justin would NEVER want somebody to have to pay to participate in a technical forum. I would never have become a member here just on principal if this were the setup when I first discovered ES.

Just donate if you want, and buy your stuff from Justin.
+1 all day long. I've fleed pay forums, and have donated more here than 5 years of pay-forum dues.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 11, 2011 3:31 pm

Joseph C. wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:
dequinox wrote:Did anyone else find it interesting that other sellers here wouldn't make a stand for ES, aside from Justin? Shows you who is here to make money, and who is here to support the revolution. Makes things pretty clear for who is here to shuffle boxes, and who is here for a cause.
Not quite, as far as I can tell, one other vendor offered to donate to keep the forum up and running.

Well, tell us who! It would great to know which other vendor didn't just get dollar signs over their eyes at the thought of the take over letting the forum commercialize. Post the context as well, offering to donate alone during a take-over could go either way.

Or do you mean Methods (who was awesome at sticking to principal), who I guess technically is a vendor here when he is selling something, but so far averages losing way more money than making. :-)
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by Joseph C. » Aug 11, 2011 3:56 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Well, tell us who! It would great to know which other vendor didn't just get dollar signs over their eyes at the thought of the take over letting the forum commercialize. Post the context as well, offering to donate alone during a take-over could go either way.

Or do you mean Methods (who was awesome at sticking to principal), who I guess technically is a vendor here when he is selling something, but so far averages losing way more money than making. :-)
I can't post the content as the thread was removed by the mods, it wasn't very flattering to Trevor and Andy, but they can post what he said if they desire. Cellman was the one who offered to donate.

And of course Methods certainly deserves great praise. :D Even if he is a lunatic. :mrgreen:
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 11, 2011 4:01 pm

Right on. Cellman is a good guy. He used his unique location advantages in China to bring some products to us that nobody else could manage to do, and struggled to find the tools and methods to build up some good quality A123 packs for ES members. He is a good guy.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by Ypedal » Aug 11, 2011 4:09 pm

Well, as a matter of fact, i was contacted by e-bikekit, Jason was certainly interested in bidding, and made quite a good offer too ( It could have been plan B ) ! However, Justin's position is more aligned with the bottom line of this forum ! :wink:
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by bigmoose » Aug 11, 2011 4:24 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Just an option to donate if you wish is going to give Justin far more, and Justin would NEVER want somebody to have to pay to participate in a technical forum. I would never have become a member here just on principal if this were the setup when I first discovered ES. Just donate if you want, and buy your stuff from Justin.
I am trying to think through these suggestions a bit more these days, and I agree with Luke. If you had to pay, even a small amount to post; we would loose the young guys just starting. The small dedicated core would pay, but not the guys who would benefit most. Also the humorists would not pay; and somewhere methods posted that this board is good for technical AND humor. I like the humor too! I would miss our resident morpheus, Biker Sarah, etc.

I am liking the voluntary donation thing, and I think it would motivate us to know how much Justin is "in the hole" as time goes on with respect to hosting and IT fees. I am not interested in knowing the purchase price as that is embargoed and we need to respect Justin's business, but I believe we should eventually help there also. We need to think about cottage industry versus brick and mortar importers who sell. It would be great if voluntary worked there also. Good people, do good to each other. In that vein...
liveforphysics wrote:Well, tell us who! It would great to know which other vendor didn't just get dollar signs over their eyes at the thought of the take over letting the forum commercialize.
Now to hear that it was Cellman does not surprise me at all! He appears to be cut from similar cloth to our liberator. I sure wish him well also, and would like to see him grow to be a key player in eBike batteries.

Lets keep refining what makes sense....

PS: A merchandizing idea... I have a vinyl cutting machine that my kids used to run as a business. If we come up with some sticker idea that can be cut, I'll donate all the profit outside of postage to the cause. We will have to run it in batches when I have my kids home, (one graduated college the other is a junior), I'll tell them it is their task for getting to go to college partially on the ol' guy!
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by Pure » Aug 11, 2011 4:27 pm

Maybe an honorable mention in the "vendors to gravitate towards" thread is worthy for these other guys who were willing to stand by us and not sell us out. Not that they are not already in there, but perhaps giving them some credit for their actions in this.

I'd do it, but I really think something like that would hold more weight coming from someone more involved in the whole ordeal.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by gilnet » Aug 11, 2011 5:07 pm

I have been battling long term illness and very rarely get to log on to my favorite place,E-S.Still don't have a running Ebike.But this place was competely different than any forum I've seen.I actually had my atty. put this site in my will.Not much,but wanted to payback for all knowledge gained,entertainment,and I hope, a few friends.I've just today,home from hospital, been able to start tinkering and logged in to get my juices flowing.Knew nothing of all this.Will do many Hrs of reading,welcome some "digest type" replies from those who remember my eternal newbie Q's and nursed me along. I'm still an old crip,trying to learn as much as I can before kicking.It's a real"what the F*$^%K"moment.Can't really add to this ordeal,don't know enough,ain't sunk in.Good time for all to shit or off get of the pot.Can only hope E-S can define itself and lock in its goals and directions so this is a once in a life time event.I still have all the pages I Dloaded when Mcknight was building his bike.I read them over and over,it was my intro into Ebikes many yrs before I even joined in.There are enough brilliant minds here to once and for all figure out what needs to be done.I'll shut up now,Gilnet

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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by Lessss » Aug 11, 2011 5:50 pm

I think there should be a topic listing vendors and people with >1000 posts can suggest then vote yes or no to include them on the domain root. Once on the root those companies can be contacted and offered a vendor thread in the for sale section for a small fee. If unscrupulous practices, or crappy products, or lack of warranty support is reported their threads can be locked and their root status removed. They can have admin access to their thread to hide(for our admins review) posts they think are out of line. Our admins can clean up and or restore those posts after review.
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by methods » Aug 11, 2011 6:28 pm

Ypedal wrote:Well, as a matter of fact, i was contacted by e-bikekit, Jason was certainly interested in bidding, and made quite a good offer too ( It could have been plan B ) ! However, Justin's position is more aligned with the bottom line of this forum ! :wink:
EDIT: Removed at the request of E-bikekits.com

FYI: I (methods) sell stuff here. I am a money whore with a vested interest :wink:


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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by Hyena » Aug 11, 2011 8:37 pm

methods wrote: Jason contacted me as well asking if we needed money and I sent him a picture of a Goatse.
F'ing lol! :lol: :mrgreen:

If he's looking for sites to buy I believe lemonparty . org was is / was up for sale recently :P


We don't need any ads in the forum, through Justin's great deeds a chunk of the forum has voluntarily decided to add ebikes.ca advertising and propaganda to their sigs. Take a country by force and make them fly your flag and they'll resent you. Liberate them though and they will happily fly your flag out of gratitude. I'm sure Justin didn't plan for this to happen but the good karma is already catching up with him :)
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by sabb » Aug 11, 2011 10:03 pm

I have taken far more than I put into this community so when Bigmoose suggested we try to buy a copy of trevors data to use as an archive I said I could afford a few thousand to help. thanks to Justin we never needed to resort to that.

So new offer Justin please figure out what this thing is going to cost per month to run bandwidth/hosting and time for your tech if he has to support more machines. Give us a number and I will send you the first month right away. I think that you will get donations for each month from those of us that can afford it and will not need any user fees and will not need to keep taking money out of pocket for running costs at least.

btw I have nothing for sale

Stephen <--guy who gets more fun out of 68 kph bike than just about anything.

deVries
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by deVries » Aug 11, 2011 10:41 pm

Joseph C. wrote:And of course Methods certainly deserves great praise. :D Even if he is a lunatic. :mrgreen:
Comic genius too... and I don't mind, in fact enjoy, being a target for that equation too. :P
liveforphysics wrote:Right on. Cellman is a good guy. He used his unique location advantages in China to bring some products to us that nobody else could manage to do, and struggled to find the tools and methods to build up some good quality A123 packs for ES members. He is a good guy.
Hyena wrote:We don't need any ads in the forum, through Justin's great deeds a chunk of the forum has voluntarily decided to add ebikes.ca advertising and propaganda to their sigs. Take a country by force and make them fly your flag and they'll resent you. Liberate them though and they will happily fly your flag out of gratitude. I'm sure Justin didn't plan for this to happen but the good karma is already catching up with him :)
+1 Awesome point EBS, I meant Jay. :wink: :P

Canadian law may allow for a business deduction in Justin's business taxes for ES anyway. :idea: The best solution, imo, could be a non-profit because Justin can then deduct his donation-expenses for running ES against his taxes & ES can be independent on into the future beyond Justin... life is sometimes not so fair, you know... A non-profit can also accept donations & you can deduct your donations too! :idea:

I just hope with any upgrades to the software, etc. that AmberWolf will have a place here, since he has issues with being here... keyboard/mouse & special software to enable him to use the site now.

The simplicity & format of ES is perfect "as is" in a sea of sheeit forums on the net, imo. Let's stick to the principles of KISS.

AND, a big bear hug for Justin too. :mrgreen:
Last edited by deVries on Aug 17, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LI-ghtcycle
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Re: A Summary Letter for the ES Community

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Aug 12, 2011 1:06 am

deVries wrote:
liveforphysics wrote:And of course Methods certainly deserves great praise. :D Even if he is a lunatic. :mrgreen:
Comic genius too... and I don't mind, in fact enjoy, being a target for that equation too. :P
liveforphysics wrote:Right on. Cellman is a good guy. He used his unique location advantages in China to bring some products to us that nobody else could manage to do, and struggled to find the tools and methods to build up some good quality A123 packs for ES members. He is a good guy.
Hyena wrote:We don't need any ads in the forum, through Justin's great deeds a chunk of the forum has voluntarily decided to add ebikes.ca advertising and propaganda to their sigs. Take a country by force and make them fly your flag and they'll resent you. Liberate them though and they will happily fly your flag out of gratitude. I'm sure Justin didn't plan for this to happen but the good karma is already catching up with him :)
+1 Awesome point EBS, I meant Jay. :wink: :P

Canadian law may allow for a business deduction in Justin's business taxes for ES anyway. :idea: The best solution, imo, could be a non-profit because Justin can then deduct his donation-expenses for running ES against his taxes & ES can be independent on into the future beyond Justin... life is sometimes not so fair, you know... A non-profit can also accept donations & you can deduct your donations too! :idea:

I just hope with any upgrades to the software, etc. that AmberWolf will have a place here, since he has issues with being here... keyboard/mouse & special software to enable him to use the site now.

The simplicity & format of ES is perfect "as is" in a sea of sheeit forums on the net, imo. Let's stick to the principles of KISS.

AND, a big bear hug for Justin too.
:mrgreen:
I'm drawing the line at the kiss .... :oops: but I'd give him a hug sure! :mrgreen:
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
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