Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

ok how strong do you think those bearings are?
If all I need to do is turn it around then I could use the right hand adapter as well...."sounds" simple enough....

Chalo said:

Hugh-Jassman said:

I would definatly like to not need the free wheel, they are all out of stock for the left hand thread and flange mount

Click to expand...

When you use a shaft mounted freewheel adapter, you can reverse its one-way action by flipping it around on the shaft. You don't need a left hand threaded freewheel.

Click to expand...

should I be looking at tinsel stringth or working load...and does a 410 chain have a different number? they don't have it on this chart.
I am getting all kinds of conflicting data on the chains. at this point I think I mayas well use 410 chain. Unless I just cannot get the larger sprockets for it. and that is th etreason I decided onthe 415 sprockets. I have to make something fit the adapter for disc hub.

The bearings in a freewheel are plenty strong for the job they have to do, which involves overrunning only when there is no tension on the chain. Don't let the chain have any static tension and you're good.

The industrial chain specs you are referencing are for industrial applications, meaning high shaft speeds and constant, as in around the clock, loads. A regular bicycle chain can take on the order of a thousand pounds peak working tension. You won't be doing that steady for 16 hours a day.

You don't need a motorcycle chain for a two horsepower, sub-20 mph "motorcycle". Look at all the scooters in the 1hp range that use #25 chain. That stuff is really tiny and doesn't even have rollers.

well I am stuck with 415 chain because I coulld not find sprockets that had an adapter for disc brake for a skinnier chain. how ever it does seem like ti could be easyer to just use the whole thing like a mid-drive.

finding sprockets I ended up with a 16 to 32 is the same ratio as 22 to 44.....2:1

now I have to buy at least two idler wheels to rout the chain.

Are oset sprockets available in the us, They use a 6 bolt disc pattern and 219 chain.
There might be a disc to sprocket adapter available.
I'll be honest I lost you miles back on the build but still following any help Ill try my best.

The main missing link in building a left-side drive is an adapter for sprockets that will alow you to use a disc brake. So I researched it a few year ago and found that most of the adaptors are custom made.
I know of only this one that MBR has. If you can find another one please show me a photo here, with a link.

The one on top is for use with a disc brake. And the bottom one just fits onto the rotor mount. But then they ask you what off-set you need. But they do not explain what that is. So finally went out and held my streaight edge in the small space to use the adapter. And decided that there is not enough room for the 415 chain to make straight line to the motor (12.7mm wide), See the photo of straight edge set on my tires.

SO NOW WHAT....back to driving the right side? So here we go again.....wasting thousands of hours on this project....I can only hope that at least few other people find use in all this reseach.

Maybe I can use the 22t sprocket freewheel with motor spindle adapter I just ordered and by pass the crank!......I will have to use the freehub to hold a 40-42t sprocket, I refuse to pay close to $100 for an exotic aluminum sprocket with splines...

My drive tire is a bit wider than the usual bicycle rig. 2.25” on a motorcycle rim. The brake rotor would probably need to be larger like 180mm and then there is the adaptor for that. And I would need to have the bike shop bend my frame a bit....it is just too much stuff jammed into that small area.

I may need to buy a new cassette for too much money and take the 40+t sprocket off and use it with one of the single speed cassettes. Or just forget this crazy project and use the kit as a mid-drive. or use a pair of clamps with bolt holes in them to hold a sprocket.

So the next step is to determin the diameter of the free hub body. and I did that before...must be above some place. and find teh sprocket that I can bolt onto this unit.

I presume the 410 chain is the same as a single speed chain.

MBR has some good sprockets and a couple adapters, but I am not sure both will work with disc brake. possibly both....but the sprockets are for 410 and 415 chains.
I just looked at the Oset site, but saw nothing but "call for parts"

Ianhill said:

Are oset sprockets available in the us, They use a 6 bolt disc pattern and 219 chain.
There might be a disc to sprocket adapter available.
I'll be honest I lost you miles back on the build but still following any help Ill try my best.

Click to expand...

I just had a realization, an epiphany about thread direction. They put left hand threads on bicycle pedals, because the pressure would be trying to turn the pedals spindle in the opposit direction if the bearing froze, and old style bearing could do that if rusty.

But a motor will be turning the spindle to left...so that the chain would be trying to pull the freewheel in the direction of removal, is that right? Well yes it would turn to the right to take it off. So how is it that I want a left hand threaded freewheel on the left side?

On the right side, the motor spindle would turn to the right while the chain wants to pull to the left. This should be well known on ES. But not many people use freewheels on motors.

Of course the right-hand threads will be needed on the rear axle of the right side.

Hugh-Jassman said:

I just had a realization, an epiphany about thread direction. They put left hand threads on bicycle pedals, because the pressure would be trying to turn the pedals spindle in the opposit direction if the bearing froze, and old style bearing could do that if rusty.

Click to expand...

That is not why. It's due to the rolling action of the thread under load. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/left.html

With a freewheel, the thread is butted up against a shoulder, and the mechanism can only transmit torque one way. It's usually impossible to screw on the freewheel upside down such that torque in it would tend to unscrew it-- but even if you could, you'd have no means of tightening the freewheel in that orientation.

You can use either a RH or LH freewheel driving on either side, if the freewheel is mounted to a keyed shaft adapter. You just flip the shaft adapter around as needed.

The force path through a freewheel reverses when you're driving the freewheel from the inside, rather than the outside. So for instance if you were using a motor that didn't allow you to flip over the threaded freewheel mounting on the shaft, you'd need LH thread for right side drive and RH thread for left side drive.

back side:


front side:

As you can see by the photos the using the left-hand threaded freewheel on the right side puts the sprocket teeth a little closer to the end of the motor shaft! If I had bought the right-hand threaded freewheel and adapter, there would be a better chance of the sprocket being at the right place. Because it would be mounted backwards so that the back of the adapter would be facing out.
I may need to mount the motor on the left side and turn the free wheel unit around to use it as if it were a right-hand thread on the left. Confused yet?

Ok try this: the sprockets are only 5/16th inch more towards the end of the shaft than the stock 14t sprocket. But how much do you think I will need to push the motor to the other side to deal with this? Well it can't possibly fit right if it needs to fit between the pedals. The motor is 6¾” long and that is only if the sprocket is in the right place. So I will need at least 7 inches between the pedals, and the new crank spindle with extension is just not long enough. [part of the mid-drive kit]

At this point I think I may need to add an extention to my bike just so I can mount the motor closer to the drive wheel, and not worrie about stuffing the motor between the pedals and align the sprocket and chain. Something like this (without building a new wheel), but more of an extracycle : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=59122&start=75&hilit=skeetab

Interesting freewheel. I haven't seen LH freewheels in sizes other than 16t for twenty years or so.

If a right hand threaded freewheel gives you the spacing you need and a left hand one doesn't, use the regular kind. It's the commodity item anyway.

Seems I'm not the only one that has nightmares while Im awake.
I like the direct drive option you shown in fact thats the basic design of my next build with #219 chain.
Only problem I can see with that will be getting the reduction drop you require a small wheel and large sprocket would be needed but will render the disc brake useless without enough space to stuff a caliper between the disc and sprocket and most frames will not accommodate it.
Being direct drive then means you can regen so it's apples and oranges again, hope you get a result your pushing hard and determined so can't see why not you will win in the end.

I like the longtail cargo-bikes only because theyhave more room for motors. but maybe ai can rig it to hold lumbar, 8ft 2x4's are very comberson on a trailer.

So it looks like even if there is room to push the motor over one inch, the mounting braket will stop me. And it may take more than one inch to get the chain to run past the crank's chain rings (left side). And if I were to use a right hand freewheel turned around so the backside is facing the right it will save only 1/8th inch.

So I can't even use the motor as a left side drive unless it just happens to fit right. Which would require not only the sprocket adapter and a small amount of dropout bending? but also a longer axle, that is not available for the velocity hub!
http://store.velocityusa.com/p/atb-disc-rear-hub/hubs_atb_rear?pp=12

Or maybe I could find an axle extender to fit the threads of the velocity axle.....

So I have to send an email to try to get the axle threads and size, any one know the size? or is there such a thing as an axle extender? seems unlikely...

I can make an extention easy enough, even if it will cost about $200, but I will need to burn on an oil finnish with a torch. It won't look nice but who cares. Is there any other advantage to building an extention besides just being able to haul longer stuff? Ok that maybe good.

I do not know, but first thing that came to mind was a fat bike hub.

Maybe there is a way you could mill an axle.

When I purchased a used rim with no skewer, thinking it was a regular hub when it was a through axle hub, I looked into different ways I could convert it. The only thing that pops out of my memory was a regular bolt came pretty darn close to the diameter of the through axle thingy (sorry the new fangled sheoit I am not up on), I will have to think about it for a bit and get back to you. Because I do remember a few places selling adapters, but that might be not what you are looking for, if your hub you linked too is the old school type skewer hub.

If money were not a problem I would build a new wheel using a 14mm or thicker axle. But it would still need a longer axle than what comes with the average hub. Unless there is a hub made for thicker drop-outs, like a half inch thick??
Or a hub that comes in two different widths, then it would be easy to get the longer width axle...

I bought this hub because it has four bears, so it must be stronger than the average hub....???

This is from the Velocity people, so the question is: does the tandom axle fit the ATB hub??

"We only have one size axle for the H49 hub, 135mm. I do not know the thread pitch, so I can’t help you with that.

We do have a tandem hub that comes with a 145mm axle."

http://www.velocityusa.com/product/hubs/tandem-disc-rear-hub

ok it looks like the axles are straight simple no taper or rings for bearings so the longer one may actually fit.

This is for Mountain Disc Rear convertible Hub#h77-00 but don't they all have interchangeable parts?


ATB axle:135mm QR or 142x12mm thru-axle endcaps
Tandum axle: 142x12mm thru-axle end caps for our Mountain Disc Convertible hub. Works with any cassette body standard.

To me, that hub looks like one of the easiest possible pieces to adapt to your purpose. It has a cylindrical, large diameter axle. Just make another one with the spacing you need (or get someone else to do it). It's not a professional machinist level lathe project.

The spacing on one side can be cut into the axle as a shoulder, and on the other side it can be a separate sleeve that gets squeezed between the frame dropout and the hub bearing on the same side.

last night I had anidea that maybe the "through axle" is a sleeve that goes over the actual axle. but if you must know more than I do about these hubs.

So now the people at Velocity tells me: "Spreading the frame to accept a wider axle will cause handling problems." But it will be only about 1/4 inch and if i bend the dropouts to align them, and use washers to adjust the caliper just so.....it should work.

ok those axles do look like they must be only 142mm long without the end caps. and I will need to remove the endcap on the left side. On the left side of the hub, the left side of the image, it looks like the end caps are large and are part of the hub.....not easy to engineer something that I can't see, so I will have to take apart my hub.

I would need to go to a machine shop to have one made.....they are hallow. So it would be cheaper to buy one.

Chalo said:

The spacing on one side can be cut into the axle as a shoulder, and on the other side it can be a separate sleeve that gets squeezed between the frame dropout and the hub bearing on the same side.

Click to expand...

The axle doesn't have to be hollow! Drill and tap for a 10mm or smaller bolt in each end, and the thing can be completely solid otherwise.

The stock axle is 17mm (I'm guessing), and the through axle version is basically a tube with a big enough bore to pass a 12mm axle through. The QR version has end caps with holes sized for a 5mm skewer to pass through. But if you use end bolts, there need not be any hole through the axle at all.

You're making this much too complicated. Figure out what minimum spacing you need on the right for correct chainline, and on the left for mounting the sprocket and brake rotor. That, plus the hub's width, is how much frame spacing you need. It's also the length of the solid axle you need. Put a shoulder on the axle to give you one side's spacing, and a tube spacer over the axle for the other side's spacing. Drill and tap a bolt hole in the center of each end, and you're done.

It's a job to do on a lathe, but it's not a job that only a professional can do on a lathe. Pretty much any person who has a lathe can handle it.

I went to take some pictures of a hub I converted many years ago from 110mm single speed to 130mm multi-speed. The hub has 15mm bearings. This conversion was more difficult than what you're up against, because I had to make a center spacer tube, and the Velocity hub already has one. You won't have to make that part or extract the bearings to install it.

The axle parts, disassembled:


The hub shell without axle installed:


The hub with axle installed:

It looks like th axle really is aluminum, but when I open the hub....delay delay delay....I can get acurate measurement then see if there is a steel bar or tube to fit. But there won't be threads on the ends, unless I pay someone to put them there. Maybe I can find hardened threaed rod in just the right size?

I almost bought the veloOrenge tandom hub, but foundout that the axle is aluminum. Other wise I will just have to force the endcap threads on to the cut off end. Actually I don't think that a sleeve will reinforce the axle enough unless it fits closely.

Or maybe I really should just think about building a (14mm axle) heavy duty wheel...Can someone show me one that has a steel axle that is 135mm and 142mm wide?? It will need a disc brake rotor mount.....and 36 spoke holes....to get that extra 1/4 inch for the adapter the hub would need to be shorter than the what the axle is made for, unless there is enough room at one end of the axle.....confused yet? I maybe.

So what about a motorcycle hub with steel axle? There is this front hub used as a rear hub perfect for 415 chain sprockets. Then use the pedals to drive the motor with 1/8th inch chain. Mostly just for legality.

Of course the rotor bolt circle may be larger and require drilling the sprocket I would put on it. And the rotor for the disc brake may not fit....but maybe it can be made to fit. I think he drilled out the flange to fit a rotor.



Here is a video on our convertible hub. Not the same as what you are looking at but similar enough to give you an idea of what’s inside. https://vimeo.com/167153141

The tandem hub is 145mm Over Locknut. Most of the added length is on the non drive side. This is a common size for tandem bikes. The other is 135 Over Locknut. This is the space measured between the frame drop outs.

142mm is common for thru axle hubs. Our 142mm hubs come without axles, as they are always supplied with the bike. There is also a 148mm thru axle, referred to as Boost Spacing. Again, these hubs are supplied without axle.

The fat hubs can go all the way up to 197mm spacing. http://www.velocityusa.com/product/hubs/fat-rear-hub

Voloci wheel hub

Oset sprocket carrier (http://www.osetbikes.co.za/shops/index.php/spare-parts/sprockets.html)

Bicycle porn: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=59122&start=75

Hugh-Jassman said:

I almost bought the veloOrenge tandom hub, but foundout that the axle is aluminum.

Click to expand...

800,000 pound jumbo jets with forty year service lives are made from aluminum. There is nothing wrong with using aluminum for an axle, as long as its properties are taken into account.

That 15mm diameter aluminum axle in my picture was used on my own first e-bike, in Seattle, at gross weights of up to and exceeding 500 lbs. With lead batteries on the rear rack. It's in fine shape 15 years later after service on multiple bikes.

Consider this: An aluminum axle has stiffness equal to that of a steel axle when it is made 1.4 times the diameter of the steel part. 10mm steel axles are proven, but their minor diameter (at the bottom of the threads) is only about 8.5mm. So a smooth 12mm aluminum axle equals a traditional steel axle in stiffness (and can have a great deal more cross-sectional area for tensile strength). Like for like, aluminum is about half as strong as steel-- ordinary structural aluminum vs. ordinary structural steel, high strength aluminum vs. high strength steel. There are types of aluminum that are stronger than 4130 chromoly, and almost three times as strong as normal mild steel.

Don't shy away from aluminum out of superstition. Use it if it's your best option. It's almost always cheaper, easier, and faster to make custom machined parts from aluminum, and custom welded parts from steel.

That dual disc hub is not cheap, They can be handy for making a non peddle high power bike as you can retain the disc and have a geared drive with the option of retaining freewheel at the motor sprocket if required at the cost of regen.

I like the idea of placing the oset sprocket on the disc side retaining the peddles and prefered gearing and then use the motor as a brake no freewheel, The battery and motor will have to be able to cope with continous use but a well designed and oiled 29er version would be capable of very high speed, And it could be pushed the other way and compacted on to a bmx style frame with lower power required as the torque will increase significantly.

Really its this torque increase you need to tap into a massive gear reduction and matching cadence gear then weight the front end down with a carrier basket out front as well as the trailer so it's more stable.

Like chalos says some alloys are decent blends and others not so much, but my scooters have used a 6.5inch alloy wheel on a 10mm axle and it's been to 45mph up mountains and took some serious hell and it's just a run of the mill chinneseam 10mm axle 190mm long.

Love the ideas and input so far nice clean friendly thread unbelievable.

well it looks like I cannot find the Voloci web site, did they go out of business? ...so what other vehicle has a hub simular to that one?
"weight the front end down" and extend the rear drive wheel back about 12 inches.





ok I took it apart as far I needed to see that there is no sleeve on the axle and it is a simple hard steel, but it does have threads to hold the end cap. So a longer axle would not be so easy....and I do need the hallow axle to use the BOB trailer skewer. I think my velocity hub maybe the old MTB....

I think I could bolt the BOBtrailer skewer ends on to the heavy duty rear rack I made then I could use a solid axle, if the threads are not reversed on the left side. Ok the end cap seemed to screw on as usual (turning right).

But I forgot to measure the axle diameter and lingth! And the rotor mounts look too wimpy to mount a motorized sprocket to....so it looks to me like I really need to build a new wheel using that “Voloci” hub, if I can find where to get one.

Well if I do the bike will be so much more heavy duty. Even if I do have to rig the pedaled chain to drive the motor, or just put a smaller sprocket on hub so it can drive the pedals. Then I can excersice my knees trying to keep up with the cranks. Perfectly cromulent.

OK but what about the ends going into the drop outs? seems like they may need something there to help.....I had an aluminum Verdie bros. motorcycle once and I was always stripping threads .....it was good motorcye and only 500lbs for a 750cc...platinum points....I got rid of it after a year...

Chalo said:

Consider this: An aluminum axle has stiffness equal to that of a steel axle when it is made 1.4 times the diameter of the steel part. 10mm steel axles are proven, but their minor diameter (at the bottom of the threads) is only about 8.5mm. So a smooth 12mm aluminum axle equals a traditional steel axle in stiffness (and can have a great deal more cross-sectional area for tensile strength). Like for like, aluminum is about half as strong as steel-- ordinary structural aluminum vs. ordinary structural steel, high strength aluminum vs. high strength steel. There are types of aluminum that are stronger than 4130 chromoly, and almost three times as strong as normal mild steel.

Click to expand...

Hugh-Jassman said:

OK but what about the ends going into the drop outs? seems like they may need something there to help.....

Click to expand...

The axle ends that go into the dropouts don't usually have to be there. There are lots of reliable examples of aluminum axle ends of 9 or 10mm that have holes larger than 5mm drilled through them. If the axle nuts or QR skewer are appropriately tight, forces are transmitted directly between the axle faces and the frame. However, if you'll notice the design of the axle I made, the bolts that pass through the dropouts are hardened alloy steel, and they have about an inch of thread engagement in the axle. There's really no opportunity for anything to strip, and the bolts themselves are easily as strong as a traditional steel bicycle axle.